Level crossing stupidity...

[phil-b259]

34 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

- unless the Policeman acted in haste -

As I said earlier I have seen internal NR documents….

Edited August 26, 2023 by phil-b259

[Andy Hayter]

I am mindful of the situation on the near continent and where archaic laws do not require the railway to be fenced off from the rest of the world.   Accidents and incidents also happen here but I wonder if the presence of fencing can actually create a barrier for those within it - both real and mental.  

[corneliuslundie]

AS said earlier, I think we should await the outcome of any enquiry or official ann0ouncements rather than speculating.

Jonathan 

[stewartingram]

I always thought (maybe wrongly) that the emergency services were trained such that their staff would rather have 1 injury than 2, so hold back for clearance to attend the 1st person, Never put your own safety at risk, even though the first wish and instinct is to do your best. Thoughts for all involved.

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

We all remember Hixon...

Thoughts with the PC and his family.
 

Hixon was very different.  The old bill who were escorting the exceptional load didn't observe the instructions on the signage and led the load onto the crossing without checking whether it was safe to do so, and unfortunately neither did the transporter crew.

 

It wasn't an investigation by RAIB (or even their precursors) who have extensive railway expertise.  It was a public enquiry chaired by a QC and ordered under a section of the Regulation of Railways Act, the first such since the Tay Bridge collapse of 1879.

 

It resulted in so many expensive alterations (for example addition of the amber light to wig-wags, no fewer than 6 phones to be introduced at all AHBs - one on each side of the line for use by railway personnel and one on each side of the road on each side of the line for public use, and the Another Train Coming lights if a train strikes in on the opposite line) that BR stopped installing modernising gated crossings to AHBs for some years because they had ceased to be cost-justifiable.

[kevinlms]

14 hours ago, stewartingram said:

I always thought (maybe wrongly) that the emergency services were trained such that their staff would rather have 1 injury than 2, so hold back for clearance to attend the 1st person, Never put your own safety at risk, even though the first wish and instinct is to do your best. Thoughts for all involved.

Yes, I agree. The basic first aid to anyone thinking of assisting, the number one thing is DANGER!  DRSABCD

 

Here's the standard advice in Australia, with the D meaning danger.

 

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/first-aid-basics-and-drsabcd#learn-the-first-aid-method-of-drsabcd

[Michael Hodgson]

6 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Yes, I agree. The basic first aid to anyone thinking of assisting, the number one thing is DANGER!  DRSABCD

 

Here's the standard advice in Australia, with the D meaning danger.

 

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/first-aid-basics-and-drsabcd#learn-the-first-aid-method-of-drsabcd

 

A lot to be said for learning first aid, but I don't think meaningless unpronounceable acronyms help anybody to remember.

 

At work I was once offered a first aid course and volunteered for it.  But it got cancelled because the room was unavailable or some similar silly excuse and never rearranged.

 

A lot more people in this country would have first aid knowledge if it was required for driving licences as it is in Sweden and several other countries (I know because my parents had to get Swedish licences).   As motor accidents are one of the places such knowledge is obviously likely to be useful, it should be easy for a politician to sell to the nation.

 

 

[ruggedpeak]

On 26/08/2023 at 20:07, stewartingram said:

I always thought (maybe wrongly) that the emergency services were trained such that their staff would rather have 1 injury than 2, so hold back for clearance to attend the 1st person, Never put your own safety at risk, even though the first wish and instinct is to do your best. Thoughts for all involved.

There was a huge public outcry some years ago when some PCSO's refused to enter a deep pond to look for a child who had disappeared under the water, this despite them being given clear training and instructions confirmed at the time that they were not to enter the water and wait for divers. Following an HSE prosecution of the Met (re: an unrelated incident) specific guidance was given on the role of health & safety in relation to policing, acknowledging that in fast/real time operations the emergency services cannot function properly if HASAWA is blindly applied.

 

Here is the guidance for police

 

https://www.hse.gov.uk/services/police/assets/docs/explanatory-note.pdf

 

I'd suggest anyone interested this incident reads this note to understand the application of health & safety to the police.

 

The views on here have been understandly railway-centric but do not fully grasp to understand the role and function of the police and emergency services in dealing with spontaneous, life threatening incidents. Outside of BTP, input into railways is limited, but frankly if they taught officers about every dangerous environment they might come across recuits would never finish training school. And statistically it is not relevant, a police officer is very likely to be assaulted or involved in some form of road traffic collision but very rarely are they hit by trains. Waiting for BTP to turn up is not always going to help in a fast time situation as they are a small and geographically spread force who can't be everywhere. The railway exists in the real world along with everything else and is not hermetically sealed.

Edited August 29, 2023 by ruggedpeak
clarification

[ruggedpeak]

On 27/08/2023 at 18:12, Michael Hodgson said:

 

A lot to be said for learning first aid, but I don't think meaningless unpronounceable acronyms help anybody to remember.

Easy way to remember it is Doctors' ABC. When taught effectively it is accompanied by actions to provoke muscle memory.

 

It is not meaningless. It is, in many parts of the English speaking world at least, the basic approach to a first aid situation. It is currently taught in the UK using DR's ABC. Don't know what the second D is for in the Aussie version!

 

First aid training should definitely be more widely available.

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

30 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

Outside of BTP, input into railways is limited, but frankly if they taught officers about every dangerous environment they might come across recuits would never finish training school.

 

The police are drawn from the general population, many of whom have no knowledge or experience of the railways.  Your can't assume the average copper has ever caught a train even once in his life.  They are bound to use their common sense and judgment of any situation they find themselves in.  And to be fair, they have often saved lives by doing things they aren't supposed to if they followed Health & Safety advice to the letter, and yes their courage does sometimes result in their coming to grief.

 

The one thing that they do need to know about railways is that flashing blue lights don't make it OK to jump the flashing red lights on a wig-wag, whether that's at a level crossing or anywhere else they are used such as at a fire station.

[ruggedpeak]

 

8 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

The police are drawn from the general population, many of whom have no knowledge or experience of the railways.  Your can't assume the average copper has ever caught a train even once in his life.  They are bound to use their common sense and judgment of any situation they find themselves in.  And to be fair, they have often saved lives by doing things they aren't supposed to if they followed Health & Safety advice to the letter, and yes their courage does sometimes result in their coming to grief.

 

The one thing that they do need to know about railways is that flashing blue lights don't make it OK to jump the flashing red lights on a wig-wag, whether that's at a level crossing or anywhere else they are used such as at a fire station.

And the railways need to be able to respond accordingly to those situations as they are not uncommon.

 

As for not stopping at red lights, that is a separate area of policing governed by its own specific policies, law and training related to the Road Traffic Acts and new regulations. Breaching red lights at a level or tram crossing is not allowed under police driver policy and training under any circumstances, at least in London. The requirement is to stop and turn off the warning equipment until the crossing clears. Any police driver not doing that is in serious breach of the regulations and is likely to find a temporary or permanent ban from police driving if caught, or worse.

[Grovenor]

57 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

 Don't know what the second D is for in the Aussie version!

 

Given in detail in Kevin's link, D for Defibrillator.

[rab]

Breakiing news on the Beeb:

 

BBC News - Nottinghamshire Police officer hit by train while helping man dies
 

Edited August 29, 2023 by rab

[phil-b259]

38 minutes ago, rab said:

Breakiing news on the Beeb:

 

BBC News - Nottinghamshire Police officer hit by train while helping man dies
 

I’m not surprised given the injuries mentioned in the control logs

 

My sympathies to their family and colleagues.

[The Stationmaster]

47 minutes ago, rab said:

Breakiing news on the Beeb:

 

BBC News - Nottinghamshire Police officer hit by train while helping man dies
 

According to an itemt a couple of days ago in 'The Daily Telegraph' the injured police officer was a BTP officer. 

[phil-b259]

7 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

According to an itemt a couple of days ago in 'The Daily Telegraph' the injured police officer was a BTP officer. 

I can confirm the Daily Telgraph was incorrect. 
 

The officer was a member of the Nottinghamshire force

[The Stationmaster]

5 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

I can confirm the Daily Telgraph was incorrect. 
 

The officer was a member of the Nottinghamshire force

Interesting - it looks like the telegraoh managed to confuse things  because although I've recycled the 'paper g having now checked the names of teh Cgief Constables I don't think it was the BTP CC's name they quoted.  Presumably the reporter \though' it was BTP involved? 

[Nick C]

I don't know about Network Rail - who of course have a huge amount of railway to worry about - but on the Heritage Railway I volunteer at there are explicit rules regarding emergency services accessing the line - in particular about who is allowed to authorise such access. 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

I don't know about Network Rail - who of course have a huge amount of railway to worry about - but on the Heritage Railway I volunteer at there are explicit rules regarding emergency services accessing the line - in particular about who is allowed to authorise such access. 

Yes - and having written Rule Books for the heritage/leisure sector Railways that should be the case everywhere.   However there is more to it than that when it comes to the police entering railway property as might become more widely known at the Inquest into Sgt Saville's death or even more so at any potential Inquiry.

 

The simple fact is that you can write procedures and Rules etc and train them in until you are blue in the face but there certain circumstances when you cannot prevent a police officer entering any property, including a railway, and you could well find yourself liable to arrest if you tried to stop them.   We don't know if that situation pertained here nor will we until results of any investigations etc are made public.  

 

On the face of it Sgt Saville was a proper copper doing what he was meant to do and the result was a tragedy for him, his family, and colleagues, and everyone else who has any concern for human life - RIP.   I think at this point there is no more we can add or say about this incident until we hear the outcome of the various formal investigations into the incident and his subsequent death.

[AY Mod]

12 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think at this point there is no more we can add or say about this incident until we hear the outcome of the various formal investigations into the incident and his subsequent death.

 

Agreed. Can we please desist further speculation or opinion in light of this tragedy.

[melmerby]

Let's have some real stupidity:

 

 

Later in the same grab bag:

 

[melmerby]

And more:

 

And another:

 

[Ken.W]

There was some discussion on here earlier regarding driving standards and knowledge of the highway code (ie lack of it)

 

Well, we currently have this at the bottom of the street...

 

 

I hadcsome amusement this afternoon ehile taking the dog out watching the number of motorist who carried on charging up the hill regardless...

Only to get half way up and find they'd to turn around and come back down

 

I came to the conclusion  that...

 

At least 50% of drivers...

 

Can't read!!!

 

Note, the pictures taken from the opposite side of the T-junction, and they have to drive round that sign when turning into the road. There's also the usual red 'Road Closed' signs, and there's been advance notice signs up for about two weeks

Edited August 31, 2023 by Ken.W

[Nick C]

6 hours ago, Ken.W said:

There was some discussion on here earlier regarding driving standards and knowledge of the highway code (ie lack of it)

 

Well, we currently have this at the bottom of the street...

 

 

I hadcsome amusement this afternoon ehile taking the dog out watching the number of motorist who carried on charging up the hill regardless...

Only to get half way up and find they'd to turn around and come back down

 

I came to the conclusion  that...

 

At least 50% of drivers...

 

Can't read!!!

 

Note, the pictures taken from the opposite side of the T-junction, and they have to drive round that sign when turning into the road. There's also the usual red 'Road Closed' signs, and there's been advance notice signs up for about two weeks

I had an annoying one of those the other day - halfway down the A339 Basingstoke-Alton road, a similar "Road Closed ahead, access only" sign - but no indication as to where the actual closure was (and therefore whether the side-road I needed was on my side of the closure or the other)

[ruggedpeak]

6 hours ago, Ken.W said:

There was some discussion on here earlier regarding driving standards and knowledge of the highway code (ie lack of it)

 

Well, we currently have this at the bottom of the street...

 

 

I hadcsome amusement this afternoon ehile taking the dog out watching the number of motorist who carried on charging up the hill regardless...

Only to get half way up and find they'd to turn around and come back down

 

I came to the conclusion  that...

 

At least 50% of drivers...

 

Can't read!!!

 

Note, the pictures taken from the opposite side of the T-junction, and they have to drive round that sign when turning into the road. There's also the usual red 'Road Closed' signs, and there's been advance notice signs up for about two weeks

It is not reading, they can't see or detect anything unexpected whilst driving, or if they do it is very late. There are plenty of people driving who would fail to spot a police car or fire engine parked there with flashing blue lights on until they'd almost hit it. And its not just the people with poor eyesight, most people have a very low standard of observation skills.