Guest 7007GreatWestern Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Can I rename it to any of the 49xx series then ? At least eight at Laira. Hi Rob, Do you want the pedantic answer? OK, here goes. 4920 does not have the fire iron tunnel on the running plate between the two trailing splashers on the fireman's side and that is historically correct. Halls built from 1933 and later (starting with 5921 "Bingley Hall") were so fitted however. Apparently fire iron tunnels were not retrospectively fitted to the earlier locos. Also, I think the arrangement of the handrails on the cab side sheets were different. The earlier locos simply had one horizontal rail. Later locos had two rail, one horizontal, one vertical. There are another couple of things to consider. Prototype and class leader 4900 "Saint Martin" had its boiler mounted at a different pitch to the production locos such as 4920. Also, 4911 "Bowden Hall" wouldn't have been seen at Brent in 1947 having been destroyed by the Luftwaffe during an air raid on Plymouth in April 1941. The brief account of this incident on Wikipedia says that the crew survived, having taken shelter under the steps of the nearby signal box! I've long thought the Bachmann Collett Hall one of the best looking GWR ready to run models in OO gauge. I agree that Bachmann do "over egg the pudding"with lining on their GW locos but their version of GW loco green is streets ahead of Hornby's IMHO. I hope Bachmann finally get round to moving the DCC socket into the tender for these new models as the current arrangement makes fitting a decoder a real chore! Andy. Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 8, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) Interesting Andy.A possible candidate was 4008 'Broome Hall' and was at Laira in 1946 but in what livery who knows. Here she is near Brent in the late '50s. https://www.flickr.com/photos/arthurmorley/6291301722 Edited January 8, 2017 by gwrrob 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 7007GreatWestern Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Interesting Andy.A possible candidate was 4008 'Broome Hall' and was at Laira in 1946 but in what livery who knows. Hi Rob, I'll look into 4908 for you. I've found a photo of it at Bodmin in 1957. Maybe it had a long term West County connection? Anyway, I've just discovered another "gotcha". You're gonna love this...... As fate would have it 1947 was the year the Great Western, encouraged by the Government of the time, converted eleven halls to oil burning. Apparently three of them were allocated to Laira. These were 4971 (renumbered 3901), 4948 (renumbered 3902) and 6949 (renumbered 3955). Coach Bogie (Mike Wiltshire) has already down a superb job of modelling one of these locos:- http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/30828-gwr-oil-burners/?p=325718 Andy. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 8, 2017 Hi Rob, Any Football Specials running today? :-) Yes, Mersey Rail.....to the recovery room for many. Best defensive display I've seen since 1940. COYG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 8, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 Yes, I cocked up using 4948 for mine but in my defence it was renamed before I modelled 1947. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) Fascinating. That looks like Ugborough Beacon in the background, so this looks like an up train between Brent and Marley Tunnels. In which case, what is the track to the right? Edited January 8, 2017 by Captain Kernow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 7007GreatWestern Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Yes, I cocked up using 4948 for mine but in my defence it was renamed before I modelled 1947. And, far more importantly, this is a hobby and is intended to be source a pleasure! There are of course those in the hobby who want to bring an attitude of zealous asceticism to it (Have you read the Dean Goods or 14xx threads recently?). So far as I am concerned, no 'defence' necessary. Your superb layout brings great joy to yourself and the many who follow it through these pages. Beware The Inquisition however..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 81C Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 Oh dear, hopefully they get that sorted as this should be a tempting release, although not as tempting as a GW modified hall would have been... That's what the early batches looked like, I've 4936 Kinlet Hall ,Pitchford Hall and 4970 Sketty Hall I removed all of the lining below the footplate which improved their looks no end. P.I.Casso 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenL Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I don't think there should be lining on the cylinders or chassis though. 32-007_3284013_Qty1_cat1.jpg http://www.hattons.co.uk/251377/Bachmann_Branchline_32_007_Hall_Class_4920_Dumbleton_Hall_GWR_Green/StockDetail.aspx You're quite right Rob. And while the Halls look wonderful in this livery, the research on postwar GWR Hall liveries I commissioned with STEAM and the NRM turned up no shots of 'original' Halls in postwar lined green - all the shots identified were either wartime black or postwar plain green. I've got the first volume of the Book of the Halls and that seems to show the same as far as I can tell. This book also gives you some clue about likely post war GWR liveries on particular Halls as it includes the service histories of each so you can see if a particular Hall had major work post mid-late 1945 when I think Halls started being painted plain green rather than black. I would be delighted if someone did manage to turn up a shot of a Hall in postwar GWR lined green, especially as I got a couple of Bachmann Halls expertly altered to this livery by Glenn (Mattingley Custom) of this parish. I justified this as there was an official Swindon decree in mid-1947 that Stars, Saints and Halls would join Kings, Castles and Counties in being lined out - there are more details about this in a GWRJ article on postwar GWR liveries, volume 7 I think. So while I've seen no evidence of an 'original' Hall gaining this livery, I tell myself it's what Swindon would have wanted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I thought 4920 looked a little forelorn in October 2011 when we visited. Perhaps, this washed out green is what Hornby used for their samples? David 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 IMG_4227.JPG I thought 4920 looked a little forelorn in October 2011 when we visited. Perhaps, this washed out green is what Hornby used for their samples? David That's a match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 Well I guess this old girl passes the authentic 1947 unlined look After todays news she and her equally elderly sister (7805) can look forward to a few more years employment on Granby. Knew it would be safe to upgrade the decoders over Christmas. Regards to all John 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 And, far more importantly, this is a hobby and is intended to be source a pleasure! There are of course those in the hobby who want to bring an attitude of zealous asceticism to it (Have you read the Dean Goods or 14xx threads recently?). So far as I am concerned, no 'defence' necessary. Your superb layout brings great joy to yourself and the many who follow it through these pages. Beware The Inquisition however..... And the "auto da fe". Lovely turn of phrase btw. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 7007GreatWestern Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 You're quite right Rob. And while the Halls look wonderful in this livery, the research on postwar GWR Hall liveries I commissioned with STEAM and the NRM turned up no shots of 'original' Halls in postwar lined green - Hi BenL, I have found the following in "Great Western Halls & Modified Halls" by Laurence Waters (Pen & Sword):- You say that authority to paint the Halls in lined green was given in mid 1947. According to Mr. Waters the first Modified Hall to receive G-emblem-W livery with lining was probably 6974 'Bryngwyn Hall' in November 1947 which was of course newly built at that time. Just three months (and nine Modified Halls) later, 6983 'Otterington Hall' was the first to receive "British Railways" tender lettering in Egyptian serif font. It would seem that the 'window of opportunity' for Collett Halls to receive the lined green postwar livery was very small indeed. Production of the Collett Halls ceased in 1943 of course so only locos going to Swindon for shopping in that brief three month period would have any chance of being so adorned..... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwell Hall Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) I don't think there should be lining on the cylinders or chassis though. 32-007_3284013_Qty1_cat1.jpg http://www.hattons.co.uk/251377/Bachmann_Branchline_32_007_Hall_Class_4920_Dumbleton_Hall_GWR_Green/StockDetail.aspx Niether should it have lining on the front of the cab - but then it probably wasn't lined at all. Collett Halls were still being turned out in unlined green in 1948 with some carrying 'British Railways' in GWR style lettering - for example see 4941 Llangedwyn Hall ex works at Swindon in April 1948 in 'Great Western Pictorial No 3' by Tony Sterndale - published by Wild Swan Books. Lined Collett Halls - with British Railways lettering - started appearing during 1948. Edited January 9, 2017 by Bulwell Hall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 8, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 Thanks Gerry.I'm on to this now and will contact Bachmann about this as it might be remedied before production.As Larry says on another thread,the lining is very toy like on this. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 7007GreatWestern Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Hi BenL, I have found the following in "Great Western Halls & Modified Halls" by Laurence Waters (Pen & Sword):- Something's not right with what I posted above. 6983 'Otterington' Hall left Swindon in 'British Railways' livery, yet 6990 'Witherslack Hall' famously appeared in the 1948 Locomotive Trials in G-emblem-W livery. Hmmmm....something not right here! So, I checked out the GCR's 'Witherslack Hall' website. It seems the tender built for 6990 (No. 4049) was swapped with the tender from 6997 (Bry-Ivor Hall) just before the trials. But this poses several questions in my mind. Why were the tenders swapped? Was there a mechanical problem with the original tender? Or did the GW simply want one last chance to defiantly wave its 'corporate identity'? Why was Bryn-Ivor Hall pulling a G-emblem-W liveried tender given that it was built after that livery had been superseded? Any thoughts on this mystery would be welcome..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 And forgive me for repeating this here again but do remember that both cameras and film .....especially colour....were in mighty short supply until the early 1950's. Finding evidence is like looking for the proverbial hen's tooth.Besides which the predominant colour was grimy grey and tender lettering barely discernible in any case.....although the odd G...W did keep resurfacing right through the fifties. I quite fancy the new release in black....with maybe a red backed plate ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 8, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 I quite fancy the new release in black....with maybe a red backed plate ? Wash your mouth out young man ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 8, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 The aforementioned incorrect for '47 [livery etc] 4948..... Copyright A.York / BRM. 19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 Wash your mouth out young man ! My God.....flattery.Quite made my day.Makes a change from the usual " me darlin" ( in his dotage ) over the checkout at Sainsbury's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 46444 Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) Talking of unlined Hall's here's 5993 Kirby Hall finished in Post-War green: It started off as a Hornby Railroad Olton Hall in full on Hogwarts Express livery! Shame about Bachmann's announcements today. Like many would have loved a new 78xx to modern standards. I'd even agree with CK that a 16xx would have fitted the bill nicely. As for the Pilgrims today.....Green Army! Cheers, Mark Edited January 8, 2017 by 46444 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 So, I checked out the GCR's 'Witherslack Hall' website. It seems the tender built for 6990 (No. 4049) was swapped with the tender from 6997 (Bry-Ivor Hall) just before the trials. But this poses several questions in my mind. Why were the tenders swapped? Was there a mechanical problem with the original tender? Or did the GW simply want one last chance to defiantly wave its 'corporate identity'? Why was Bryn-Ivor Hall pulling a G-emblem-W liveried tender given that it was built after that livery had been superseded? Any thoughts on this mystery would be welcome..... No facts, but some parallel stuff. The Southern sent three Bulleid light pacifics off to the 1948 trials, and despite having to be mated (ooh!) with Stanier tenders labelled British Railways - Southern never did see a need for water troughs, so their tenders would not have enabled all the runs envisaged - all three bore the round "Southern" insignia on the smokebox door. The new Regions, and their works and Motive Power Departments, were just as patriotic as any die-hard fan these days. Of course Swindon would want G-emblem-W on the tender! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 Didn't the exLMS paint their former logo on the WD tenders which were used? Could be a similar case of a die hard company man wanting to get the old logo used one last time 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 8, 2017 Hi Rob, I'll look into 4908 for you. I've found a photo of it at Bodmin in 1957. Maybe it had a long term West County connection? Anyway, I've just discovered another "gotcha". You're gonna love this...... As fate would have it 1947 was the year the Great Western, encouraged by the Government of the time, converted eleven halls to oil burning. Apparently three of them were allocated to Laira. These were 4971 (renumbered 3901), 4948 (renumbered 3902) and 6949 (renumbered 3955). Coach Bogie (Mike Wiltshire) has already down a superb job of modelling one of these locos:- http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/30828-gwr-oil-burners/?p=325718 Andy. 4908 was at Penzance from 1955 to 1960. There are plenty of photos of it in Cornwall in the usual reference books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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