Oh dear, another one...

[beast66606]

Not wishing to speculate but to answer Mike - he could have been told the route was set and it was Ok to pass the signal at danger, thereby making it the signalman who is in error.

 

Probably best to leave "Who dunnit?" alone for now

[Boris]

its gotta be the drivers fault, not concentrating, for whatever reason. my first thought was elderly driver perhaps but that was just a thought. he hasnt looked at the road. he may have asked the fireman who said ok to go but hadnt looked properly? 

 

ive noticed silly things on preserved railways which just point to lack of concentration, things like setting off the wrong way after a run round.

I would think there are plenty of people who'd like a turn at volunteering at driving, if its the drivers fault maybe take him off driving and offer him volunteering at a minor role.

 

is that harsh or fair?

 

he maybe the best experienced driver and nicest person, but let someone else have a go, but then you are gaining someone else who isnt as experienced, this accident may have been down to inexperience, you could argue perhaps that it will make him a better driver as he wont do it again.

at the end of the day, at least no one is hurt, and the trap point has done what it was designed to do.

Harsh.  We don't know what has gone on in the minutes prior to the incident, if the bobby has told him to pass the board he may well have taken this in good faith.  The Driver is the Guards chauffeur on the Signalmans railway, the bobby has a responsibility to ensure the route is set/locked/checked, the Guard has a responsibility that any signals relating to the movement are cleared before waving the Driver away, and the Driver AND Fireman have a responsibility as well.

 

A chap at the ORR describes accidents like this as like playing Kerplunk, if all the straws are there, the balls stay in the air, if enough of the straws are absent the balls are dropped, as in this case, this will be down to multiple factors, not just the guy who opened the thrash handle.

[Michael Delamar]

Perhaps it was a demonstration of how trap points work!

 

I'll get my hat.....

well on the website it did say this..

 

"Hot food will be available at Swithland during the three day event. Passengers will be able to reach Swithland using a complimentary shuttle bus from Quorn and Woodhouse station. When changing for the bus at Quorn, look out for demonstration high speed mail drops – and one additional unusual attraction…"

 

http://www.gcrailway.co.uk/news/#6261

 

wouldnt like to have had to pick up all those letters knocked on the floor of the TPO

 

to be honest its not fair to laugh really, its embarrasing enough when a model train comes off the tracks at a show, not nice when its the real thing in full view of the public pointing and laughing and making wise cracks, it can damage reputations.

[Boris]

well on the website it did say this..

 

"Hot food will be available at Swithland during the three day event. Passengers will be able to reach Swithland using a complimentary shuttle bus from Quorn and Woodhouse station. When changing for the bus at Quorn, look out for demonstration high speed mail drops – and one additional unusual attraction…"

 

http://www.gcrailway.co.uk/news/#6261

 

wouldnt like to have had to pick up all those letters knocked on the floor of the TPO

 

to be honest its not fair to laugh really, its embarrasing enough when a model train comes off the tracks at a show, not nice when its the real thing in full view of the public pointing and laughing and making wise cracks, it can damage reputations.

NYMR, Gresley BTO, Evel Knieval, nuff said.

[Michael Delamar]

just to be clear Im not offering opinion on punishment,  but more asking what do you do with the people involved, ie give them a rollocking or put your arm around them, or both.

but as has been said, we shall wait to see what happens, again as long as everyone is ok, carry on.

[Boris]

just to be clear Im not offering opinion, more asking what do you do with the people involved, ie give them a rollocking or put your arm around them, or both.

but as has been said, we shall wait to see what happens, again as long as everyone is ok, carry on.

Possibly buy some of them glasses?

[Rugd1022]

This ought to clear up any further speculation, straight from the horse's mouth so to speak (Loose-grip-99 / Pete is a good chap  )...

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/loose_grip_99/8687264227/in/photostream

[beast66606]

This ought to clear up any further speculation, straight from the horse's mouth so to speak (Loose-grip-99 / Pete is a good chap  )...

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/loose_grip_99/8687264227/in/photostream

 

It's private !

[The Stationmaster]

It's private !

So that definitely cleared up one area of speculation - maybe (and it's still private).

[Swindon 123]

In my driving career whenever told to pass a signal at danger or make an unsignalled move it was my responsability as the driver to check that the road was clear and the road, ie. the points, were properly set for the move and if needs be clipped and scotched in certain instances. It was never the signallers responsability as he could be some way from the points concerned, I was the man on the spot. The only personal I used to accept instructions to move over points without checking where shunters but I used to keep a close eye out as they we not infallible.

Paul J.

[Rugd1022]

So that definitely cleared up one area of speculation - maybe (and it's still private).

 

You're quite right Mike and Beast... I didn't realise it was private until just now.

[PhilH]

Everything else aside, and whoever will ultimately take the blame, I really feel for those involved in this incident. One can only imagine what went through their heads when the 'oh sh*t' moment happened.

 

Those of us who are are involved with railway work in general, and perhaps footplate work in particular, steam, diesel or electric, professional or hobbyist, will feel a great deal of sympathy and empathy for those involved - there but for the grace of God and a moment's lapse in concentration perhaps etc.

 

Perhaps the only good thing was that there were no injuries - stuff can be repaired.

[PaulRhB]

The comment by the cameraman says it was being talked by at danger he also states driver, fireman and guard had been over the box before they moved off.

Not sure what the GCR regs are but on the national network the crew are expected to check points and in that case its 50/50 to Signalman and driver.

[The Stationmaster]

The comment by the cameraman says it was being talked by at danger he also states driver, fireman and guard had been over the box before they moved off.

Not sure what the GCR regs are but on the national network the crew are expected to check points and in that case its 50/50 to Signalman and driver.

Obviously a lot depends on the particular Railway's Rule Book but I would have expected 'somebody' to ensure that the points were correctly set - in fact as there was nothing to secure the integrity of the locking and detection I would alsoexpect them to be clipped (the right way) before authority was given to pass the signal at danger.  But, as I said, that does depend on the Railway's Rules and it also depends on us knowing what exactly was said and what other precautions were applied (and observed by the engine crew) at the signalbox.

 

Incidentally it's not in my view a matter of 'blame' but of establishing the facts of what happened and taking the necessary steps/issuing suitable reminders and carrying out training to ensure that it doesn't happen again.  It could well be that where any individual responsibility is identified there might be some form of censure but that is not what dealing with things like this is about - it's cause and action to avoid a repetition.  And if the RAIB or ORR Inspectors find 'cause' within the Railway's Rules or training and exam procedures then the 'fun' will really get going and paper flying - and that is a possibility nowadays.

[Happy Hippo]

Mike,

 

The culture we live in today always wants to blame some individual.  

 

I do note that both the AAIB and RAIB do state in their reports that it is not in their remit to apportion blame, but to generate a factual report of precisely what happened and to make recommendations to prevent a re-occurence.

 

This culture is at total opposites to  Service boards of inquiry, which in my experience, have been quite happy to apportion blame as the board feels appropriate...... In the past 'Pilot error' was always a 'get out clause', although we have( allegedly) moved on from that mindset in this more enlightened age.

 

Regards

 

Richard

[PaulRhB]

Incidentally it's not in my view a matter of 'blame' but of establishing the facts of what happened and taking the necessary steps/issuing suitable reminders and carrying out training to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

Yep and even the national rule book only included a 15mph max over facing and trailing points in the last couple of years when under caution, purely to give time to react and they have a much better view ahead. It's also why they insist modem locos are driven from the leading cab to see such things easier.

As Phil said just Sod's law is likely that two apparent lapses came together.

Still the trap did its job and prevented the whole line being blocked and by accounts from those there soon got the full show back on.

[Hobby]

TBH regular rail travel makes me more nervous, because although I assume the average risk is much lower, much higher line speeds and traffic density inevitable slew the risk profile towards black swan incidents.

 

I'm sorry but that is pure scaremongering... My job is a passenger guard on high speed trains which travel the length and breadth of the country and I do tens of thousands of miles a year on the railways. Knowing the railways as i do I feel a damn sight safer whenever I am on the train compared with the drive too and from work on the roads where I am subject to the whims of other drivers who could be on their mobile, texting, on drugs, drunk or just chatting (and looking) at their passengers... There is always a slight risk whatever we do but compared with other forms of land transport the risk when on Rail transport is miniscule... And that's before you factor in the strength of modern stock if the worst does come to the worst...

 

Regarding the "blame" culture, if you look at the history of railways all accidents or incidents are investigated at one level or other, the reason is simple... We can learn from them and improve the safety on the railways... Yes, someone will get the blame, but if it improves safety then all well and good... Until we know the facts it is pure guesswork in this case, though...

[ZiderHead]

I'm sorry that you read that as scaremongering, that was certainly not my intention. It was a pretty subtle point directed at someone who I'm guessing is fairly familiar with risk assessment.

 

Its common knowledge (backed up by the stats) that rail travel or air travel are safer than driving on public roads. Personally I feel much safer on a train than I do on a coach. And much safer on roads as a driver than a passenger, but like most people I more than likely overestimate my own driving skills

[Hobby]

Just the way I read it, ZH... If people actually thought about the risks in everyday life then I doubt anyone would get out of bed in the morning!!

 

Best bet is just not to bother thinking about it... 

[The Stationmaster]

I'm sorry that you read that as scaremongering, that was certainly not my intention. It was a pretty subtle point directed at someone who I'm guessing is fairly familiar with risk assessment.

 

Its common knowledge (backed up by the stats) that rail travel or air travel are safer than driving on public roads. Personally I feel much safer on a train than I do on a coach. And much safer on roads as a driver than a passenger, but like most people I more than likely overestimate my own driving skills

An interesting point but in fact if you look at the various different areas of risk and consequence the two tend not necessarily to go together.  Low speed incidents- such as the one in question - have for a very long time been far more prevalent on the railway in Britain (and, most likely, railways in general) than higher speed incidents in almost every category.  But low speed incidents - again such as the one in question - tend to involve little physical damage although many categories used to pose a quite high risk of death or injury (almost invariably to staff).

 

On the other hand incidents at higher speed inevitably tend to be more destructive and have therefore been the cause of many years of mitigation effort in order to reduce both risk of equipment damage/destruction and risk of human injuries and fatalities.  The crossover in risk assessment terms between the two can at sometimes produce quite surprising results, especially with, for example, modern passenger rolling stock which generally reduces the consequences considerably in terms of human death and injury.

[mcowgill]

Mike,

 

The culture we live in today always wants to blame some individual.  

 

I do note that both the AAIB and RAIB do state in their reports that it is not in their remit to apportion blame, but to generate a factual report of precisely what happened and to make recommendations to prevent a re-occurence.

 

This culture is at total opposites to  Service boards of inquiry, which in my experience, have been quite happy to apportion blame as the board feels appropriate...... In the past 'Pilot error' was always a 'get out clause', although we have( allegedly) moved on from that mindset in this more enlightened age.

 

Regards

 

Richard

 

It's interesting that real Health & Safety (rather than the Daily Mail version) in industry has for a long time been trying to get away from the blame culture, that's what proper risk assessment and accident investigation is about - learning from mistakes and avoiding future incidents - just like the AAIB & RAIB.

 

When I started working in manufacturing industry people covered their backs and incidents were always someone else's fault, we had some very nasty accidents in our foundry that today would bring the entire place to a halt.  Today I can wander round the factory and if I see an unsafe practice or an accident waiting to happen, even though I have nothing to do with that part of the factory process I can openly talk about it with the people involved, report it and it will be investigated with the sole purpose being to see if working practices can be changed to stop it happening.   Individuals are much more aware that they are responsible for their own and their colleages safety and are able to raise issues with their peers.

 

The most important thing to do in these circumstances is to identity:

What happened?

How and why did it happen?

How is it prevented from recurring?

 

The pointing of fingers is never helpful, it stops an investigation being done openly.   Any incident, whether on a railway or other work environment might potentially end up with some form of disciplinary or censure action, but that should be at the end of the process, albeit if there are safety issues protocols might require a temporary suspension from working in a specific role while the incident is reviewed.

 

Martin

[PatB]

A chap at the ORR describes accidents like this as like playing Kerplunk, if all the straws are there, the balls stay in the air, if enough of the straws are absent the balls are dropped, as in this case, this will be down to multiple factors, not just the guy who opened the thrash handle.

I prefer the duck and tiger analogy myself.  That is, serious incidents are rarely a case of getting your head bitten off by a tiger which comes out of nowhere and are much more usually a case of being nibbled to death by the ducks which you knew were there all the time but ignored because, individually, they seemed pretty harmless.

[M51625]

The GCR uses the big railway modular rule book, with obvious exceptions and local instructions....

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

....unfortunately, the recreation of typical rail operations of the steam era in order to entertain the public aren't the things that many of these volunteers are doing every day of the week. It takes continual practice/repetition to remember the sequence/every stage of such manoevres....just like choreographing a dance routine. There were and are plenty of incidents on the national network with staff who do this for a living. My biggest concern after public and staff safety is that some rolling stock items are unique.

 

I was standing next to 44422 at Holt on the NNR when the signalman was struggling to clear a shunt disc for a move with the loco. He quickly handsignalled to the driver to pass the disc at danger and consequently 'run through' the points...which he had neglected to set correctly. I couldn't understand why the traincrew hadn't checked the setting of the box operated points before moving the loco or why the signalman hadn't taken the time to work out why he couldn't move the lever for the disc (he only had to look at one set of points). Slight delays to train running are much more preferable to damaged equipment and rolling stock. 

 

Dave

 

BR driver and instructor.

[The Stationmaster]

....unfortunately, the recreation of typical rail operations of the steam era in order to entertain the public aren't the things that many of these volunteers are doing every day of the week. It takes continual practice/repetition to remember the sequence/every stage of such manoevres....just like choreographing a dance routine. There were and are plenty of incidents on the national network with staff who do this for a living. My biggest concern after public and staff safety is that some rolling stock items are unique.

 

I was standing next to 44422 at Holt on the NNR when the signalman was struggling to clear a shunt disc for a move with the loco. He quickly handsignalled to the driver to pass the disc at danger and consequently 'run through' the points...which he had neglected to set correctly. I couldn't understand why the traincrew hadn't checked the setting of the box operated points before moving the loco or why the signalman hadn't taken the time to work out why he couldn't move the lever for the disc (he only had to look at one set of points). Slight delays to train running are much more preferable to damaged equipment and rolling stock. 

 

Dave

 

BR driver and instructor.

It's not just 'not doing it every day' Dave but it's also a matter of proper training and examination and - dare i say the word in a volunteer situation - supervision.  Anyone working a lever frame needs to understand interlocking and be fully cognizant with the Rules regarding handsignalling movements over pointwork and a lot of it is not just 'railway sense' but also commonsense.  I have never passed anybody out on a private railway for any operational duty without not only a theory Q & A session but also a thorough practical examination including a few 'everyday problems' thrown in to both potentially catch them out and help along the learning curve.  And it should be a matter of very basic education and understanding that movements over 'box worked points where a fixed signal cannot be cleared are potentially an area where things can go dramatically wrong unless everybody is on the ball.

 

In my view the RSSB modular Rule Book is not entirely fit for purpose in the heritage railway sector where much of what it says is not easy to convert into a traditional steam age railway sense and the wording and structure is not in a readily assimilated form.  Much of the basic theory is relevant but it needs to be restructured in a suitable and far more cogent manner and it helps enormously knowing what to leave out (but I do have the advantage of having been involved in writing Rules, Regulations and Instructions in various situations and for everything from BR/NR down to narrow gauge lines over the past 40 years or so).

 

But whatever the book says is only important if staff understand it and why it says it - and that comes back to training,  examination, and supervision; I can see no realistic alternative to those three areas (and of course a Railway's SMS should include them).