Scale figures

[petethemole]

In the military modelling world of the 70s and 80s copying Airfix Multipose 1/32 figures for gain, even when using them modified to something else, was regarded as breach of copyright so I expect the same applies.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Those interested in 4mm Edwardian model figures will find this of interest;

 

http://www.acstadden.co.uk/Pages/oogaugefigures.aspx

[Bigglesof266]

Thanks for the Merit origin info on those PECO 5200 set folk Bernard TPM. Now knowing that they were once attached to bases so as to be free standing provides explanation to the mystery of the missing feet. 

 

A question re the SR Bogie Passenger Brake? It could have been that the way I posed the previous statement in my post was misleading, or could well be wrong. I'm hardly any kind of authority on the finer nuances between SR coaching stock, vans or wagons.

 

I had thought Hornby R4535 a new tool replacement for the long serving and too short old mould Hornby version fitted with those oversized bogie integrated couplings? I don't know Hornby's reference number of the one it replaced because mine was included in the Imperial Airways Train Pack with respectively, a new tool detailed Maunsell coach, new tool detailed lit Pullman coach and new tool detailed T9 loco. But I have since acquired the new tool mould R4535 SR (28t ?) bogie passenger brake van B in SR lined olive. Aren't they both supposed to be identical representations of the same type SR (28t) Bogie Passenger Brake van B, just the latter new tool, detailed and accurate? This is the passenger brake van I was referring too in case my post errantly offered the impression I was referring to the shorter non-bogied SR passenger brake van (type) C. Hornby ref: R4340C (SR Bullied CME era liveried example).

 

Sincere question rather than a disguised challenge to your statement as I'm genuinely confused and suspect my own understanding about them is flawed. Cheers.

 

 

[davidbr]

I have posted here about the possibility of some 4mm Edwardian figures.  The range of figures available for pre-grouping is quite limited and the quality indifferent on the whole, but I think these are promising. 

[petethemole]

Given the source, I think "promising" is an understatement!

Pete

[BernardTPM]

I had thought Hornby R4535 a new tool replacement for the long serving and too short old mould Hornby version fitted with those oversized bogie integrated couplings? I don't know Hornby's reference number of the one it replaced because mine was included in the Imperial Airways Train Pack ... But I have since acquired the new tool mould R4535 SR (28t ?) bogie passenger brake van B in SR lined olive. Aren't they both supposed to be identical representations of the same type SR (28t) Bogie Passenger Brake van B, just the latter new tool, detailed and accurate?

 

Sincere question rather than a disguised challenge to your statement as I'm genuinely confused and suspect my own understanding about them is flawed. Cheers.

No problem - These two photos of the models should make the differences clear:

 

Old Tri-ang origin van http://www.ehattons.com/images/products/R2952_26609_Qty1_7.jpg

with three sets of double doors without windows and corridor ends

(real thing, though with gangways removed http://www.semgonline.com/vandw/utilvans02.html )

 

New Hornby van http://www.ehattons.com/images/products/R4535_45641_Qty1_1.jpg

with four sets of double doors with windows and non-corridor ends

(real thing http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srguvandb/hcd9e3e7#hcd9e3e7 )

 

There were, if I remember correctly, two batches of the corridor vans, of slightly different lengths though neither exactly matched the Tri-ang (I think one was only a few mm out). There's a drawing and other info in an article by Terry Gough in the April 1974 Railway Modeller.

[brightspark]

Hi,

Just a word of caution. Is copying and re-casting the Dapol figures an infringement of copyright?

 

Tony

Yes it is. But only if you try to make profit from it.

It is called counterfeiting or these days pirating.

It is now an offence that get you into prison!

 

There is also stealing someones original design and artwork .Some of my figures have been modified  and I always know as there is something I dont quite get right and neither do the copies.My 1/43 Enzo Ferrari is ripped off all over the world and I often get ebay to chuck em off .Same for my gendermes .Some figures I have made for companies get modified by the company which is legal(ish) but lacks manners and breaks the art work rules .( you know who you are  :-) ).

Figures are easy to rip off but I doubt Dapol will worry .

Martin

 

 

In the military modelling world of the 70s and 80s copying Airfix Multipose 1/32 figures for gain, even when using them modified to something else, was regarded as breach of copyright so I expect the same applies.

 

There have been some legal cases over this issue. As I understand it, a direct copy is plain counterfeiting as above. Modification is the grey area with argument being based on how much modification has been done. My figure with the case might be pushing it. Any lawyers on here?

[Bigglesof266]

In homage of the maxim one learns something new every day, again thank you BernardTPM.

 

I have both versions in SR Maunsell olive plus the smaller brake van "C" in SR Bulleid green. Of the 28t bogies, I had mistakenly thought the latter 2012 Hornby release simply an accurate detailed version of the same van superceding the venerable Tri-ang mould as I'm certain did, and still do, many others. Seems the Tri-ang version as the only RTR version of type (?) with corridor ends, if less accurate and detailed then desired, is not superfluous yet. 

 

And if I might crave forgiveness for digressing strictly off thread topic for a moment more in the interests of clarification and possible assistance to others in future who might stumble upon this post, I also found this clarifying summary; with acknowlegement & further thanks to:

To try and summarise

SR GBL (Gangwayed Bogie Luggage) - BR Cor-PMV (Corridor - Parcels / Miscellaneous Van)- Produced by Triang and since by Hornby
SR Van B or Bogie Van B - Kit by Ratio and during RTR 2012 Hornby
SR Van C - BR BY - Kit by Parkside and RTR Hornby
SR Van U (Utility Van with end doors) - BR CCT (Covered Carriage Truck) - Kit by Parkside and RTR Wrenn
SR Bogie Scenery Vans (Hi arc roof bogie version of Van U also called Elephant Vans) - BR GUV - Kit I think by Jedenco
SR PLV (Passenger Luggage Van) - BR PMV (Parcels / Miscellaneous Van) - Kit by Parkside

 

Continuing on topic, those 4mm Edwardian figures are enticing. The complete unknown of price per set notwithstanding, I'd otherwise express interest.

 

Not to put the kibosh on the concept as the Edwardian period being undeserving per se, but unless intending them for sale in their own right as collectable works of art for cabinet display rather than detailed but functional figurines for deployment on a model railway layout, because 1900 through 1914 (aware the monarch lending his name to this period actually died in 1910) is not a/the predominantly modelled popular model railway era, in terms of sales volume viability ergo pricing, wouldn't it be a wiser business decision to go with figurines representative from a period sure to ensure popularity and thus sales volume? As has already been said here many times, it's not as if there's much in the way of 1/76,4mm, OO gauge alternatives to deter demand.

 

The alternative marketing concept of smaller volume production to sufficient minimum pre-orders received for limited batch production of the Edwardians notwithstanding of course. Has any indication of a probable price per set or minimum volume (sets) to produce such a run been given in your email exchanges daviddbr?  

[Jol Wilkinson]

I didn't get the impression that the Edwardian figures would only be available as sets, but that from a tooling cost, it is better to put a large selection into one tool.

 

Why not concentrate on Edwardian figures to start with? Andrew Stadden already has a range of 7mm figures and will have some idea of the demand from those.

 

More recent eras are already catered for by other manufacturers and this era is not as well covered. "Edwardian" style dress is not confined to 1900 - 1914 and will be suitable for a wider period, perhaps 1870 - 1920.

 

As for pricing, the 7mm individual figures are mostly £2.70 (the sets work out slightly cheaper), so I would expect a little less for 4mm. Langley's are around £6.60 for ten figures, but by the time you've binned some of the worst castings, I reckon they cost about £1.00 each and still need some work.

 

I will need about at least forty for my layout so that'll be costly. However, most Victorian/Edwardian era modellers are used to kit/scratch building which isn't as cheap as RTR collecting. So I am willing to pay a "reasonable" price for a decent quality product.

 

Jol

[Bigglesof266]

Jol I think the concept of 4mm Edwardians, set or otherwise, fabulous, so please don't perceive my comments above "anti" the project. I do believe that there would be a certain niche market for them, but very much niche both because of era and potential price. I do believe those wanting them would be prepared to pay. The question is, are there enough ready to put their money down to qualify their commission proceeding? But davidbr has already asked that. Cheers.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Biggles,

 

I think that you raise an issue that affects anyone producing new products outside the mainstream RTR arena (which has it's own market forces at play).

 

I am currently designing a new LNWR/LMS loco for a 4mm kit manufacturer. It is one of the less well known prototypes and has never been done by anyone else, so what sales it'll generate we haven't a clue. There is only one way to find out.

 

Jol

[Jol Wilkinson]

Whoops! It looks like my view of Edwardian dress being suitable for a fairly wide period is a bit wide of the mark.

 

See http://blog.tuppencehapenny.co.uk/2011/11/vintage-for-beginners-20th-century.html

 

I think I will have to apply a bit of modellers license, but what's new?

[ChrisN]

Whoops! It looks like my view of Edwardian dress being suitable for a fairly wide period is a bit wide of the mark.

 

See http://blog.tuppencehapenny.co.uk/2011/11/vintage-for-beginners-20th-century.html

 

I think I will have to apply a bit of modellers license, but what's new?

 

I have seen photos of ladies, albeit of the more older variety, dressed in 1918 as much the same as they would have dressed 20 years earlier.  Fashions did change every year but I am not sure how often people bought clothes before they wore out completely and obviously the poorer they were the less often they did buy clothes

 

THis is a whole new subject of research.

[BernardTPM]

As with many man-made items clothes are something that can be seen later than they were originally made, but not before they were made! For the period before Edwardian these might prove useful

http://www.fashion-era.com/mid-late_victorian_fashion.htm and

http://content.lib.washington.edu/costumehistweb/fashion-trends.html and particularly the plate collections:

Late Victorian http://content.lib.washington.edu/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=exact&CISOBOX1=Late%20Victorian&CISOFIELD1=covera&CISOOP2=none&CISOBOX2=&CISOFIELD2=covera&CISOOP3=any&CISOBOX3=&CISOFIELD3=publis&CISOOP4=none&CISOBOX4=&CISOFIELD4=physic&CISOROOT=/costumehist

and Edwardian http://content.lib.washington.edu/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=exact&CISOBOX1=Edwardian&CISOFIELD1=covera&CISOOP2=none&CISOBOX2=&CISOFIELD2=covera&CISOOP3=any&CISOBOX3=&CISOFIELD3=publis&CISOOP4=none&CISOBOX4=&CISOFIELD4=physic&CISOROOT=/costumehist

From the text it's obvious that the invention of chemical dyes (the first in 1856) quickly impacted on fashion.

[ChrisN]

If you are desperately interested the the private collection of Roger Vaughn is invaluable.  I add a link to his index and in it are three pages of dating photos by the clothing.  The clothing changes on a yearly basis.

 

http://www.rogerco.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm

 

May I also say that if you use Preiser figures then the fashions will be German which are not necessarily the same as English ones.

 

Do I see a tin?  Quick hide the tin opener it says Wurmer on the side.

[Clive Mortimore]

Chris is correct that clothing changes on a yearly basis but many people would wear clothes that were a few years old, especillay working class in their work clothes.

 

Most of our model passengers waiting for their trains would not be in high fashion they would be in daily wear, "Man at C&A" would be more appropriate. We need to be viewing photos of people at stations and in street views from our respective modelling periods.

[alfsboy]

Womens fashion changed quite quickly ,mens less so .Still does .For a working man a suit and cloth cap covers a wide time span .Many women made their own cloths until a few decades  ago .My wife when a teenager was very fashion aware but made all her own clothes so was always up to date .evidently she always bought the pattern size one size too small and it fitted like a glove .My mother did too .She had been a court dress maker before the war so  knew her stuff .I have  a picture of her in a new look suit  like a Chanel model  in the early fifties but she was very hard up .

Martin

[Clive Mortimore]

Womens fashion changed quite quickly ,mens less so .Still does .For a working man a suit and cloth cap covers a wide time span .Many women made their own cloths until a few decades  ago .My wife when a teenager was very fashion aware but made all her own clothes so was always up to date .evidently she always bought the pattern size one size too small and it fitted like a glove .My mother did too .She had been a court dress maker before the war so  knew her stuff .I have  a picture of her in a new look suit  like a Chanel model  in the early fifties but she was very hard up .

Martin

Hi Martin

 

Very true many women would/will dress more fashionably than men so it is even more important to view the clothes women are wearing in period photos and make/modify our model figures accordingly. The three women poses in the Dapol passenger set are not representative of a wide time period but at the next exhibition I will attend they will be standing on the platform of a 1930s GWR BLT, and a 1980s banger blue roundy roundy.

 

Edit....don't forget hair styles.

[Bigglesof266]

Edit....don't forget hair styles.

Noteworthy comment. But post Victorian, I think hatted or not is the more important. Up until the early 1960s, in my memory civilian ladies and gents by and large wore head wear of one type or another when outdoors, in many cases the style quasi 'mandated by fashion', but even according to station or class in a time not all that so long ago of a much less egalitarian society. Because of the influence of military service in the two world wars, men's hairstyles similarly until the 'mop tops' of the early 60's of its emerging generation. That should bring back some memories.

 

Unhatted ladies notwithstanding, hairstyles are less noticeable on a 1/76 scale figurine than clothing and hat styles or the poses and stances like so many things termed production values in film ranging from manner of speech and body 'English' can make or completely destroy even a relatively modern period piece reducing it from plausible suspension of disbelief to a fancy dress farce. By way of specific example, although I do comprehend that the film's focus at that time was upon more significant things, were the hairstyles of the sector (?) control room WAAFs in the 1969 produced film "The Battle of Britain" which were prominently 1960s not 1940s. Unlike re-engining those Buchons with DB601As or building real 'Stukas' to film, it would have been such an easy detail to get right. I first saw the film upon it's initial theatrical run here in circa 1973. Now being considerably older and thus comprehending how the passage of 25 years can seem to have passed in the relative blink of an eye seeming like only yesterday, if understanding of why they were presented with 60's hairstyles, it's a such a shame that detail was neglected.

[petethemole]

Not to mention the very recent (1960s) items in shot at some of the locations used.

 

Pete

[Blenheim]

Unhatted ladies notwithstanding, hairstyles are less noticeable on a 1/76 scale figurine than clothing and hat styles or the poses and stances like so many things termed production values in film ranging from manner of speech and body 'English' can make or completely destroy even a relatively modern period piece reducing it from plausible suspension of disbelief to a fancy dress farce. By way of specific example, although I do comprehend that the film's focus at that time was upon more significant things, were the hairstyles of the sector (?) control room WAAFs in the 1969 produced film "The Battle of Britain" which were prominently 1960s not 1940s. Unlike re-engining those Buchons with DB601As or building real 'Stukas' to film, it would have been such an easy detail to get right. I first saw the film upon it's initial theatrical run here in circa 1973. Now being considerably older and thus comprehending how the passage of 25 years can seem to have passed in the relative blink of an eye seeming like only yesterday, if understanding of why they were presented with 60's hairstyles, it's a such a shame that detail was neglected.

 

Yes, while there was much in "The Battle of Britain" that they took pains to get right (I'm sure I read that they tracked down authentic reflector gunsights), there were a few basic howlers where they should have done better.  The scene that spoiled it for me was Robert Shaw and Ian McShane leaving the country cottage early one morning, near the end of the film -- clearly with a 1960s glazed front door!  Ugh.  I used to pass one of "stars" on my way to school: the Spitfire gate guardian at RAF Locking.

 

Anyway, returning to 4 mm scale figures, Monty's Models/Dart Castings are the best metal ones I have come across, although I believe the railway figures are intended for the 1930 to 1950 period, possibly stretching to about 1960.  Does anyone remember the sets of figures that Triang/Hornby sold in the early 1970s?  They were moulded in pink (styrene) plastic, and featured a number of passengers modelled from the waist upwards so that they would fit into the seats of the Triang Pullman cars.  I think I still have an unopened pack of them somewhere...

[BernardTPM]

Does anyone remember the sets of figures that Triang/Hornby sold in the early 1970s?  They were moulded in pink (styrene) plastic, and featured a number of passengers modelled from the waist upwards so that they would fit into the seats of the Triang Pullman cars.  I think I still have an unopened pack of them somewhere...

Those were the figures that dated from the early 1960s, originally supplied in painted sets R281 'Train figures' http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/OONew/locofig.htm, R283 'Platform figures' http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/OONew/platfig.htm and R284 'Coach figures' http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/OONew/coachfig.htm, the last of those having the waist-up figures. The waiter/attendant in that set, plus the standing guard in R281 were also deliberately short because the interior floor in model coaches is normally about 2-3mm higher than it should be. There were two shades of pink in the R360 sets, depending on the batch. There's some nice big phots here http://www.modelfigures.co.uk/very-rare-tri-ang-Hornby-r360-r-360-railway-figures-set/ of some of them, showing the deliberately cut short nature of the guard and waiter.

They're not bad figures, well shaped and reasonably detailed faces though their poses are perhaps a little stiff. Much better though than the current Hornby figures.

[Ruston]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Phoenix figures at all. I always found their 4mm figures to be well-proportioned and crisply cast. Are they still in production?

 

Here are the last two survivors of my 00 days. These are about 25 years old now and were painted by myself and are a bit grubby from having sat in the bottom of a box of junk for about 20 years so aren't brilliant. The faces are reasonably well done and with the attention of someone who knows what they're doing with a paintbrush they'd be quite good.

 

I almost feel like moving up to 7mm just for the figures alone (not all 7mm figures are good, but there are some stunning ones).

Do it, you know it makes sense. Some of my 7mm figures are from Phoenix but a few are from Omen, including these two. One was painted by myself and one was ready-painted from Omen. I'll let you work out which is which...

 

[BernardTPM]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Phoenix figures at all. I always found their 4mm figures to be well-proportioned and crisply cast. Are they still in production?

Yes, they are: http://www.forty-third.co.uk/76_phoenix_figures.htm

[alfsboy]

All based on Norwich people  LOL .I took all my  research  shots for making the patterns from Norwich as I have posted before  on here . I was very pleased to see they were still around .

Martin