For those interested in old cars.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Cossies and the like are definitely appreciating fast, but there's also the "car your dad had" factor in play. Memories of childhood holidays etc. "Are we there yet?"

 

Here's a very very nice bog-standard Metro.

It's fourteen grand.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/145074065626?hash=item21c71690da:g:nGAAAOSwfT9kWm5g&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4EjzjW1Uc8DONiI5GgvZv1cIQ46Qc4OtNbl694c2VLj2hqueEcw%2F3e%2FCaiiSWXNYyfXlsgYXVvluUW%2B33UhB1gm8B8dl4lLF36rrziQRIWeTu90mwYcg8xxuwD6aEZK2OnnpShIpFxvoa4SE5DeTrGywHBEbS6Vo%2BV6xtf9tsMq4mQzdS3coJ2wqN2O532GJek4D3ejA8FBxTaFaWerylhiE6Qf6RxThhu1xu%2BY155cE8L%2BQSfAW7Fx0ZVDdzXDNh9LL2XqAAxHQ3R7Lb8oomE82BBaz2uQahE0SOFPl3T7c|tkp%3ABk9SR4DosIrcYg

[Hobby]

And massively overpriced. Someone's trying to get their restoration costs back and won't. The first Metro or last one might command that sort of money but in that spec that one won't. 

[MJI]

4 hours ago, alastairq said:

Not just old cars, either.

 

Modern cars have become white goods.

They are treated in the same vein as one would one's fridge.

Or washing machine.

 

I get critisised for running a nearly 20 year old car.

 

But I like it and it does not have a crank as brittle as 3D resin

[craneman]

5 hours ago, 30801 said:

 

Here's a very very nice bog-standard Metro.

 

 

I'm still trying to come to terms with the words "very very nice" and "bog-standard Metro" appearing in the same sentence! It's a previously un-considered concept to me!

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, craneman said:

 

I'm still trying to come to terms with the words "very very nice" and "bog-standard Metro" appearing in the same sentence! It's a previously un-considered concept to me!

 

I like it. I'd buy it if it weren't for the whole fourteen grand thing.

[37114]

6 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

The problem with older cars, not just pre-war cars is the high maintenance requirements. In the mid 50's my dad had a 1932 Morris Minor. A weekly chore was to grease various points on the steering, brakes and suspension, anything between a dozen and twenty in all, mostly from beneath the car. Inevitably as a car got older such maintenance tended to be neglected and that led to many accidents which led to the introduction of the MoT test. Perhaps a lot of people are not prepared to put the time and effort into keeping an old car on the road.

I think it is an interesting observation and definitely there is a growth and will continue to be of "Do it for me Classic car enthusiasts". As an example at work I am part of an internal social media group focusing on classic cars. Many of the cars on there are c40 to 50 years old and lpts of the owners talk about taking the car to a classic (insert brand of choice) specialist to be serviced or worked on. While I am quite happy to work on my 1977 Land Rover as it is simple 1950s engineering which I learnt from my Dad, there is no way I would touch a 1980s MG Maestro as there are boxes of electronics which I am no expert in under the bonnet/dash and anything newer just gets worse. While the cars of the 30s I would be happy to work on they have no connection to me (I am 45) or other of the sane generation and consequently the skills to maintain them although basic are dying out.

[russ p]

6 hours ago, Hobby said:

And massively overpriced. Someone's trying to get their restoration costs back and won't. The first Metro or last one might command that sort of money but in that spec that one won't. 

 

If it was a mk1 turbo in that condition it would be over 20k

[Dunsignalling]

12 hours ago, russ p said:

 

If it was a mk1 turbo in that condition it would be over 20k

 

Indeed it might, but the price relationship between the two parallels an Escort Popular vs a Mexico, or a basic Mk1 Golf or Pug 205 vs the GTi variants.

 

The people who want classics now are less likely to be influenced by the basic model being cheaper than was the case when they were new, and the "desirability gap" only widens with time. 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[RANGERS]

On 26/09/2023 at 08:17, MJI said:

Well since the most reliable recent land rover engine is a development of the L not surprised.

 

Frafile ford v6 fragile transit engine, not very good 3l bmw 6.

 

I'll stick with a 5 cylinder lr lump.

To be fair, the most reliable LR engine in the past 20 years was probably the 4.4 V8 diesel in the Range Rovers. It has a pretty solid reputation for longevity though it does like a bit of pampering and turbos can be a bit of a lottery above 100k.

 

They’re very much the engine of choice in L322 and L405s, capable of nudging 40mpg and great for towing. Ive known two of them that have clocked 200k without drama, one of them now at 230k and has just come back from a 2000 mile trip around Europe.

 

The 5.0 supercharged petrol is another that has a pretty sound reputation, though not one that tends to reach high mileages purely on account of the cost of getting it to that distance! Both are genuine Ford (US) engines whereas the fragile V6 was a Peugeot developed engine that Ford part funded the development of. The priority for PSG was to keep it short enough for FWD packaging, that made the crank journals incredibly thin. Little wonder they break.

[MJI]

3 minutes ago, RANGERS said:

To be fair, the most reliable LR engine in the past 20 years was probably the 4.4 V8 diesel in the Range Rovers. It has a pretty solid reputation for longevity though it does like a bit of pampering and turbos can be a bit of a lottery above 100k.

 

They’re very much the engine of choice in L322 and L405s, capable of nudging 40mpg and great for towing. Ive known two of them that have clocked 200k without drama, one of them now at 230k and has just come back from a 2000 mile trip around Europe.

 

The 5.0 supercharged petrol is another that has a pretty sound reputation, though not one that tends to reach high mileages purely on account of the cost of getting it to that distance! Both are genuine Ford (US) engines whereas the fragile V6 was a Peugeot developed engine that Ford part funded the development of. The priority for PSG was to keep it short enough for FWD packaging, that made the crank journals incredibly thin. Little wonder they break.

 

I looked at an L322 BMW version, just out of price bracket, the L318 was £3k less

[RANGERS]

16 minutes ago, MJI said:

 

I looked at an L322 BMW version, just out of price bracket, the L318 was £3k less

Surprising that, all variants of the L318 Disco 2 are rising in value, they do rot a bit but repairs are straightforward and are old school tech with pretty bulletproof mechanicals.
 

The L322 RR is a much more complex machine, equally prone to rot but much more difficult to repair and with more, and less reliable tech on board. They are fantastic cars but can end up being a bit of a money pit.

[MJI]

2 hours ago, RANGERS said:

Surprising that, all variants of the L318 Disco 2 are rising in value, they do rot a bit but repairs are straightforward and are old school tech with pretty bulletproof mechanicals.
 

The L322 RR is a much more complex machine, equally prone to rot but much more difficult to repair and with more, and less reliable tech on board. They are fantastic cars but can end up being a bit of a money pit.

 

This was back in early 2014!

[37114]

If the blurb is correct then this has to be one of the rarest ever Land Rovers:

 

https://www.mathewsons.co.uk/auction/lot/lot-510---1982-land-rover-109-4-cyl-cnty-sw/?lot=18787&so=0&st=&sto=0&au=53&ef=&et=&ic=False&sd=0&pp=96&pn=6&g=1

[steve1]

Not trying to be awkward, but don’t we have a dedicated Land Rover (& associated vehicles) thread already?

 

steve

[alastairq]

38 minutes ago, steve1 said:

Not trying to be awkward, but don’t we have a dedicated Land Rover (& associated vehicles) thread already?

 

steve

I've done a search, and not found one, for land rovers as such. {There might be threads on models of land rovers, however?]

 

However, it seems older land rovers are considered to be 'classics' as such, for some reason?

[Such a pity I cannot easily get behind the steering wheel of any series land rover...]

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, alastairq said:

I've done a search, and not found one, for land rovers as such. {There might be threads on models of land rovers, however?]

 

However, it seems older land rovers are considered to be 'classics' as such, for some reason?

[Such a pity I cannot easily get behind the steering wheel of any series land rover...]

TBH, unless you require a vehicle that will do what the Land Rover was designed to, I've never fathomed why anybody would want to....

 

Draughty, uncomfortable, thirsty, vague steering, etc. etc. etc. Apart from off-roading, it doesn't actually do very much remotely as well as more conventional vehicles.

 

Definitely an acquired taste.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Derek 19B]

You mean like this old fellow ,someone’s daily drive here in Paphos photo taken this morning

 

[Nick C]

21 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

TBH, unless you require a vehicle that will do what the Land Rover was designed to, I've never fathomed why anybody would want to....

 

Draughty, uncomfortable, thirsty, vague steering, etc. etc. etc. Apart from off-roading, it doesn't actually do very much as well as more conventional vehicles.

 

Definitely an acquired taste.

but if you do need something that will do what a Landy is designed for, there's not much that will get anywhere near - especially not anything that currently comes out of the Land Rover factories...

[Northmoor]

23 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

TBH, unless you require a vehicle that will do what the Land Rover was designed to, I've never fathomed why anybody would want to....

 

Draughty, uncomfortable, thirsty, vague steering, etc. etc. etc. Apart from off-roading, it doesn't actually do very much as well as more conventional vehicles.

 

Definitely an acquired taste.

Sounds like just some of the reasons Landie enthusiasts love them!  You could say much the same about almost any car built before about 1970.

 

I agree though about the use of Series or Defenders as everyday cars, effectively "lifestyle vehicles".  The owners seem to forget they are agricultural vehicles modified for road use, not cars designed to go off-road as well.

[Dunsignalling]

49 minutes ago, Nick C said:

but if you do need something that will do what a Landy is designed for, there's not much that will get anywhere near - especially not anything that currently comes out of the Land Rover factories...

Toyota Land Cruiser (the proper one, not the SUV) springs immediately to mind.

 

Having been in both, a big improvement in comfort/driveability and an edge, albeit not a huge one (IMHO), on the rough stuff. Old Landies may well have the home-spannering side of things sewn up, though. 

 

However, in the past two decades, the bulk of the former Landy target market seems to have switched to crew-cab 4wd pick-up trucks. Being able to keep stuff going oneself for three decades and more with minimal tools and facilities no longer seems to be a priority.

 

The new Defender is clearly designed to do what the old one did, but in luxury. Brilliant so long as one has the wherewithal to afford one and trusts in the technology-dependent nature of its versatility....

 

John

Edited October 2, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[alastairq]

I suppose running an old Land Rover as a 'daily' might be the same as wearing ancient waxed cotton jackets, when one lives somewhere where one is totally surrounded [as far as the eye can see] by houses?

 

I think they're a bit like a pair of old wellies?

 A 'basic' vehicle.. [exactly what else does one 'need' in order to travel about, eh?] if ever there was one?

 

No worse than having a motorcycle as one's only form of transport, either.

 

What amuses me about the views held by too many people concerning things like landies, or any other 4 wheel drive-capable vehicle is..the expectation that one uses 4wd all of the time.

When in reality, one doesn't..[or, shouldn't...let's put it like that?]

Having access to 4wd is no 'worse', automotively speaking,than having ABS, for example. ABS really is only there to get one 'out of the shyte of one's own making'....in my view....

Same with 4wd.....

Or, traction control [for example]...

All there so one can billy about being a clott....and won't come to 'serious' harm.

 

Later Landies don't wander around very much at all....

 

But what does one expect from front suspension that uses leaf springs?

DAihatsu 4wds that use leaf springs do the same.  [the later [1990's] Daihatsu 4Trak independants, with their independent front suspenders don't wander about at all...and are indeed a very valid, relatively comfortable alternative to the Landie of the day. In other words, I can sit in one without the squeeezy hassle I get in a defender....[especially civilian versions, with their gucci trim panels inside]..

Like the Landie, one can get them mucky as 'eck with impunity....washing is an option...so is smelling of damp sheep.

Plus, they make little or no pretension at being stylish.

Thwack it agin a rock, and so what?  Hawthorns do a much better job of keying paintwork than any local scrote can.. 

 

Older landies can be repaired, easily enough, when they conk out...unlike much that has been made this century?

 

But, what most of the non cognoscenti fail to grasp are the designed differences between a proper so-called 'off highway' vehicle...and the multitude of modern so-called wannabes.

 

Regardless of whether 4wd is available or not. 

 

Things like, sealed fuel tanks [to prevent ingress of watter?]...breathers, etc....locations of essential electrics, etc....so that a reasonable 'wading depth' can be achieved [without serious modifications].. Exhaust locations [so they don;t get ripped off by stiff grass?]...locations of simple stuff like brake lines, cables, etc....all better protected from stuff on the ground.

Unlike the average Mazda or Peugeot, for example?

Items which are only happiest when on smooth tarmac?

 

All these little details make the difference between an off-highway equipped vehicle....and a school run bus!

 

As far as sticking a middle finger up at 'style' is concerned, i don't think one can beat a UMM Alter, either? 

 

such a pity Landies are such targets these days, however...

[alastairq]

Forgot to mention..surely a sign of a died-in-the-woolies Landy lover, who views the thing as ''their car'' must be, the Landy running on ordinary van tyres?

Given the prices charged for 'proper' off-highway tyres, for running around the countryside lanes, i can think of no better idea than a set of 80 aspect ratio van tyres?

 

I recently [this year is 'recent' for me]...bought a pair of Event tyres for the rear axle of the daily Suzuki GV...They were on an offer from Camskills...but cost twice as much as the more recent [road] tyres I got for the front wheels for MoT time...[80 quid compared to 40 quid] from the same source.

Those Event tyres really do howl..[they did say so on the Camskill blurb] but hey, the GV is a countryside hack [an expensive one to tax, unfortunately]...which gets washed once or twice a year [I used 4wd this weekend, as I was helping marshall observed sections on the MCCs EdinburghTrial  Being old and a bit decrepit, I need to drive around the sections sticking the signage up, etc]..

I can put up with the howling.....tells me how fast I'm going.....

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, alastairq said:

What amuses me about the views held by too many people concerning things like landies, or any other 4 wheel drive-capable vehicle is..the expectation that one uses 4wd all of the time.

When in reality, one doesn't..[or, shouldn't...let's put it like that?]

Having access to 4wd is no 'worse', automotively speaking,than having ABS, for example. ABS really is only there to get one 'out of the shyte of one's own making'....in my view....

Same with 4wd.....

 

 

The thing about 4WD is less about how many wheels are driven than it is about questioning why you need a huge G-Wagon for the school run.

I doubt many people would tut at you if you drove a Panda 4x4.

 

Coincidentally I recently bought a 2WD Jeep after consideration of its off-road ability. Don't need 4WD but I do need a bit of ground clearance or this keeps happening.

 

 

[alastairq]

The 2wd Dacia Duster is a popular alternative for just such happenings..

[Oldddudders]

Our first Landie was a 13-y-o 109" 2.25 petrol, 60 bhp, 21k miles, one previous owner - HM MoD. Heavy duty chassis, twin tanks, convoy lights - but converted from 24 to 12 volts. I had a hard-top fitted, roof rack, ladder, overdrive and free-wheel hubs. I needed to put on my gorilla suit to drive it. A few years later I exchanged it for an early 110 V8 County. So different! When it went for its first MoT, the tester said it felt as if you could drive round the World in it! 

 

We had horses, so towing was part of the deal. I recall one wet horse-show, where expensive Mercedes horse-boxes needed towing out of the mud by tractors We just locked the diffs and off we went.

 

In the late '90s, we once agreed to move friend Paul's horse Brigitte to West Sussex for a week's riding on the South Downs. Paul lived down a mile-long private single track road, shared with a couple of others. As we drove up towards the A262, an oncoming vehicle had to reverse into a refuge - a Ferrari 512 BB!