Pictures of Locos at speed

[A_S]

HI all,

 

I'm just wondering why people do not take panning shots at slower shutter speeds to capture the movement of a train?

 

I've not got any examples myself as I dont photograph locos, but i've got a lot taken in motorsport.

 

Forgive me if there is a technical reason for this, for example a telephoto lense at long distance, for example photographing an engine on a viaduct would not allow you pan fast enough to capture the motion etc - but still shots with the wheels and rods in motion should be more than possible, however everyone seems to "stop" the loco and not capture any movement for some reason?

 

even googling doesn't yield too much

 

Andy

 

 

[Coldgunner]

I've tried it myself, but as I don't use a DSLR the timing is very much guesswork. I do like them when they come out though, gives a remarkable sense of speed.

[eastwestdivide]

HI all,

 

I'm just wondering why people do not take panning shots at slower shutter speeds to capture the movement of a train?

...

maybe too many "train geeks" compared to "artists", which results in a low proportion of panned shots, which in turn makes it hard to search for visually if there are no keywords to look for. Bit of a needle in a haystack. 

I guess you also need to be fairly close to the subject to make it work effectively, or else the relative motion of subject and background isn't sufficient.

I've tried both panning and deliberate blurring of the subject with a low shutter speed, and like Coldgunner says, it's a bit hit and miss with panning, whereas deliberate blurring (as well as unintentional blurring!) is easier to achieve.

Having said all that, I've not tried it for ages. Next time I'm out I'll give it a try. Thanks for the idea.

[edcayton]

Have a look at Colin Gifford's work, especially in "Decline of Steam". He can definitely be classed as an artist.

 

Ed

[asmay2002]

I'm just wondering why people do not take panning shots at slower shutter speeds to capture the movement of a train?

 

It was briefly fashionable in the 1960s.  R J Blenkinsop's books include examples taken by him - very nice too. With the advent of better cameras it is not necessary.

[Xerces Fobe2]

You can fake it in Photoshop with motion blur, using layers and a bit of editing - Here is one in model form

 

 

XF

[Oldddudders]

I'm sure the anorak in us wants to capture the detail, in the same way we pore over old photos and curse if they are blurred. I take motor racing pics at 8 frames a second and want them all pin-sharp. Blur is fine for winning photographic competitions, but no good for enthusiasts.

[DaveF]

I'm sure the anorak in us wants to capture the detail, in the same way we pore over old photos and curse if they are blurred. I take motor racing pics at 8 frames a second and want them all pin-sharp. Blur is fine for winning photographic competitions, but no good for enthusiasts.

 

At my local photographic society every sharp image of a loco train is greeted by judges with the comment "what a pity it isn't moving, it would be much better with movement blur". I now only enter photos of locos in sheds!

 

You also get the same comments with water - judges want it blurred/cloudy to show movement.  I wait for the photo with sharp water and blurred rocks!

[bluebottle]

There have been examples of blur in the Creative Photography (railway related) thread; my favourite in this was a picture by Larry (Coachmann) - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/196-creative-photography-railway-related/page-11 (post 267), but generally railbuffs do like to see sharp, well-detailed images. Modellers especially want pictures as references - hence the later thread for locomotive portraiture. I used to photograph road and cross-country races back in the 1960s and 70s, and people in the sport expected to see snaps emulating those in "Athletics Weekly" - as sharp as possible, showing running style, musculature, etc. I could do the occasional "arty" shot, but the usual response was "Very nice, but don't do it too often!"

 

 

 

[trunker3]

Michael Mensing was a master of this genre. His panned  pictures of Western Region steam (usually south of Birmingham) at speed are stunning.

[eastwestdivide]

The thing with the photoshop image above is that it isn't realistic...

Over to you XF - can you reverse the effect in photoshop?

[Xerces Fobe2]

Over to you XF - can you reverse the effect in photoshop?

I agree this was a bit of fun with motion blurring the train and adding a camera flash and editing it. I always keep the original so I do not have to reverse edit the photo!

 

it is not that realistic as it is basically just a blur which softens all the detail however I think it may be acceptable as an approximation of what a speeding train would look. Maybe a better method would be to stacking a number of images with are a fraction apart in timing them you would get a the speed with sharper edges however some amount of blur would still be required.

 

XF

[Alastair-I]

I don't think I've ever panned a train as it passed, but I've made a point of not panning to capture the motion..

 

 

 

[stewartingram]

Why don't I take panned shots? Simples.....

....I don't like them!

 

Stewart

[bluebottle]

Why don't I take panned shots? Simples.....

....I don't like them!

 

Stewart

 

Quite right; it's your photo album! I used to participate in DPreview forums, but I got tired of being patronised and told what pictures I ought to be producing. Luckily, RMwebbers are a more tolerant bunch.

[298]

I think one reason is people tend to ignore the mundane, instead of photting it creatively.

 

I've tried panning a few times, and this is the best effort- it's a scan of a print of a mundane 47/8 at Berkswell, sometime in 1992.

 

[A_S]

I use the technique regularly. Why isn't it done? dunno. Loads of potential reasons including lack of knowledge, ability, imagination etc etc. Its certainly nothing to do with better cameras as its actually more difficult to take a panned shot than it is to take an unimaginative 3/4 front shot which looks like the train is standing still regardless of whether it is or not. Distance from the subject is a variable but  not hugely significant, its the shutter speed, aperature and focussing point that has the biggest impact on the picture.

 

The thing with the photoshop image above is that it isn't realistic, it just looks like a blurred train taken with too slow a shutter speed. For a panned shot, primarily the background is blurred not the subject matter, though depending on aperature/shutterspeed and focussing point parts of the subject matter can be blurred too.

 

I'm glad this has arroused some debate.

 

I think there is some miss understanding here of a blurred shot/panning shot and PMP describes it perfectly as does 298. A proper panning shot preserves the detail as the loco is sharp and the background/wheels are moving

 

I'll try and dig out an example but im logged out of flickr and cant remember my yahoo username, doh!

 

Andy

 

Edit, found some, not the most creative but illustrates the effect:

 

IMG_8856 by Andrew_S84, on Flickr

 

 

IMG_9005 by Andrew_S84, on Flickr

[eastwestdivide]

I think one reason is people tend to ignore the mundane, instead of photting it creatively.

 

...

Good point - I find my more creative shots often come out of boredom. You have time to sit and think, or even just sit, and eventually a different way to do it pops into your head.

[eastwestdivide]

I agree this was a bit of fun with motion blurring the train and adding a camera flash and editing it. I always keep the original so I do not have to reverse edit the photo!

 

...

 

Sorry, I was trying to say can you do a Photoshop motion blur on the background and keep the train sharp?? To mimic the effect in posts 17 and 18 above.

[asmay2002]

Its certainly nothing to do with better cameras ....., its the shutter speed, aperature and focussing point that has the biggest impact on the picture.

 

You contradict yourself here.  The cameras back in the sixties had poor lenses and slow shutter speeds compared with modern equipment and it's because of this that you can freeze a sharp image of  a moving loco without having to pan as they did back in the day. Yes it does require some skill but if you hadn't got it all you got was a blur.

[MikeOxon]

can you reverse the effect in photoshop?

No problem!  Select the locomotive then choose "inverse" in the Selection menu before applying the motion blur filter.  The filter will then operate on everything except the loco, as below:

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I feel there is another factor particularly applicable to steam, when it comes to a panned photograph. The intention is to present the subject sharply defined, while the background has motion blur. Unfortunately, while it is possible to pan for one motion, where there is also any motion going on in another axis as readily seen on a steam loco, rather strange effects can occur especially - but not restricted to - focal plane shutters. Artefacts of this, such as curved rods and spokes, and motion blur of the front of a loco caused by the front end yawing, may well have discouraged attempts by many photographers in the days when film was relatively expensive. I would suggest that the published good results are probably a pretty small selection from among a heap of failures.

[Oldddudders]

Back in the heady days when I actually bought Modern Railways each month, a colleague, John McIvor, was often having photos published. As he lived and worked close to the SW main line, initially when steam was at its last gasp, he had an advantage, perhaps. I recall on one occasion he had sent a few pics to Ian Allan, but even he was surprised when they published a motion shot of - from memory - the cab of a 4-REP at speed.

[A_S]

That shot of lord of the isles - although it looks good there is just something that isnt right about it to my eye and I think its the following - 

 

As its a 3/4 like shot in all my (fairly limited compared to some on here) experience the front/back of the train would not be sharp. This is because the point on which your pan pivots, i.e the point on the loco that you "track" will always remain in the same position in the viewfinder and your panning speed would be reletive to that, therefore keeping it sharp and in focus, where as the coaches and perhaps front buffer beem would not be in the same position reletive to that, appearing at different positions in the photo depending on what the current angle of the pan is, for example:

 

_MG_9412 by Andrew_S84, on Flickr

 

You can see that I have focused on the french flag and all around that point is well focussed, where as the front and rear of the car are blurred because the position of these  varies depending on the angle of my pan/the position of these reletive towards the camera and point of focus/pan and how close they are to the camera (getting further away or closer).

 

The only time that the whole thing would be sharp is when the whole train is at exactly square to the camera as in my shot of Mark Webber in the Williams above. Oh or a rig shot where you attach a rig to the car/train and the camera to that. everything remains the same position relation to the camera. 

 

I hope that makes sense it is hard to explain and the same would apply to the coaches etc.

 

Also, i would have thought the idea is to minimise the time spent in photoshop in your workflow, so why would you try and add the effect afterwards (very time consuming, especially if your rods and wheels are "stopped") if you can do it in the first place?

 

 

I must admit I'm not sure why this type of photography appears to have been ignored by the railway photography community, even given the focus on portraiture and finer details (Which I can totally understand)

 

Andrew

[MikeOxon]

That shot of lord of the isles - although it looks good there is just something that isnt right about it to my eye

You're right of course.  I was just illustrating a principle.  One could do a lot more work on it, to cover the issues you raise!  Alas, Photoshop is never a substitute for doing it for real

 

Nice car pics, by the way.