HAB Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 I am wanting a jig made myself to help with detailing Lima DMUs and would like to chat about it. I want one which hangs on the door window and has holes for the handrails and door handle, my plastic card one is useless! Hello MJI, 'Twas I who provided Colin's jig which I was able to do as I was making one for my own use for a similar vehicle. Unfortunately, I am not really into Lima DMUs I'm afraid, so I am not really able to help. Having said that, it sounds like all you need to do is to replicate what you did in plasticard in sheet metal - the jig for the SUB was made from nothing more than 10 thou nickel silver. Is this a good opportunity to hone or develop the metalworking skills? Sorry I can't offer more, but I hope the suggestion is helpful at least. Best wishes, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted January 11, 2014 Author Share Posted January 11, 2014 What "British Railways" said they did and what they actually did has, to my observation when I was with them, been two entirely different things. Nothing seemed to be wasted at some depots. If transfers were still stock, they got used up. I have it on good authority that the "Hornby's" had a large totem on one side of the loco and a small one on the other. Allegedly to replace the large one was a "works" job and the small one a "depot" one and so when one was damaged by internal overheating, rather than.........Well draw your own conclusions. Step back Colin, take a couple of deep breaths. You're doing just fine, I wish I could get in the same street as you, modelling wise! Thanks John for your words of comfort. However, it would be very unlikely that unit 4377 survived to the early part of 1970 without a re-varnish and application of correct emblems. I will just have to accept the mistake and carry on. If only I had taken a few more photos of the model prior to the varnish stage the fault could have been rectified in a matter of minute. Hindsight is such a wonderful thing! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted January 11, 2014 Author Share Posted January 11, 2014 Hello MJI, 'Twas I who provided Colin's jig which I was able to do as I was making one for my own use for a similar vehicle. Unfortunately, I am not really into Lima DMUs I'm afraid, so I am not really able to help. Having said that, it sounds like all you need to do is to replicate what you did in plasticard in sheet metal - the jig for the SUB was made from nothing more than 10 thou nickel silver. Is this a good opportunity to hone or develop the metalworking skills? Sorry I can't offer more, but I hope the suggestion is helpful at least. Best wishes, Just to hang a reply onto yours Howard, I could add that drilling templates for grab handle holes can be made from clear plastic. What I have done in the past is to scribe the door opening onto a piece of clear plastic 25mm square. Pilot holes can then be drilled. This can then be sighted onto the model, lining up the scribed lines and those on the coach side. The drawback of this technique is that the jig is lined up by eye without positive location. On the plus side though, being clear you can see through the jig and know exactly where you are drilling. In any event, Howard's method of having a flange on its bottom edge, thus locating the jig so that it can slide along the bottom edge of the coach side is far more versatile than hanging it on a window opening I would have thought. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Colin. Could you apply a fresh, (correct), transfer over the wrong facing one and then add a bit more varnish? Just a thought..... Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted January 11, 2014 Author Share Posted January 11, 2014 Colin. Could you apply a fresh, (correct), transfer over the wrong facing one and then add a bit more varnish? Just a thought..... Cheers. Sean. Hi Sean, Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm sure I don't have the skill to rectify the transfers without damaging the finish. Two incorrect emblems is better than two wrecked sides! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Fair point Colin. I just looked back at the picture and it looks like you have possibly used the HMRS transfers? Either way, it's the clear part with the "British Railways" legend that scuppers my plan I think. Regardless, the unit still looks the mutts nuts! Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted January 11, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11, 2014 Could you not scrape the lion out of the circle and replace with the correct facing one, but leaving the outer ring? Or it might be easier to run the unit with the wrong ones to the back, where they can't be seen! An amazing build yet again! Andy g Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted January 12, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 12, 2014 Just to hang a reply onto yours Howard, I could add that drilling templates for grab handle holes can be made from clear plastic. What I have done in the past is to scribe the door opening onto a piece of clear plastic 25mm square. Pilot holes can then be drilled. This can then be sighted onto the model, lining up the scribed lines and those on the coach side. The drawback of this technique is that the jig is lined up by eye without positive location. On the plus side though, being clear you can see through the jig and know exactly where you are drilling. In any event, Howard's method of having a flange on its bottom edge, thus locating the jig so that it can slide along the bottom edge of the coach side is far more versatile than hanging it on a window opening I would have thought. All the best, Colin OK I will try to make a new one, clear plastic seems the right idea, then reinforce with some metal as my holes went big! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Hi Sean, Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm sure I don't have the skill to rectify the transfers without damaging the finish. Two incorrect emblems is better than two wrecked sides! All the best, Colin I've made mistakes with transfers before and ended up having to rub down a coach side, repaint, reapply the transfers and then apply the varnish. So I agree with you to leave it be. I only meant my post to be a query about the emblems and certainly not a criticism of the model. I must say that when you were making it and decided on green for the livery I felt that I would have preferred seeing it in blue. Now it's painted and has the small yellow panel at the front I think green suits it very well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 OK I will try to make a new one, clear plastic seems the right idea, then reinforce with some metal as my holes went big! Martin, I might be misunderstanding, but it rather sounds like you might be using your template as a drilling jig? Rather than drilling through the jig, if you just use it to mark the location with a sharp point, then remove the template for the actual drilling, it should last a long time - I think Colin was also making a similar point. Good Luck, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted January 12, 2014 Author Share Posted January 12, 2014 I've made mistakes with transfers before and ended up having to rub down a coach side, repaint, reapply the transfers and then apply the varnish. So I agree with you to leave it be. I only meant my post to be a query about the emblems and certainly not a criticism of the model. I must say that when you were making it and decided on green for the livery I felt that I would have preferred seeing it in blue. Now it's painted and has the small yellow panel at the front I think green suits it very well. Hi Flood, Don't worry, I take all constructive criticism as welcome observations and your point may stop others falling into the same trap. I am not au fait with the green period BR liveries, so that is how the mistake occurred. It is a pity the varnish is already on, but I am wondering if the transfers could still be removed. There is a glimmer of hope, as the emblems are the only transfers which were left with their carrier film left on. This means that the entire transfer could come away cleanly from the side leaving a patch of gloss-varnished side onto which a correct left-facing transfer could be re-applied. It also occurred to me that I could punch a hole of the correct diameter in to a piece of masking tape and just re-spray over the new transfer. I haven't given up yet! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted January 12, 2014 Author Share Posted January 12, 2014 Could you not scrape the lion out of the circle and replace with the correct facing one, but leaving the outer ring? Or it might be easier to run the unit with the wrong ones to the back, where they can't be seen! An amazing build yet again! Andy g Hi Andy, Thanks for your suggestions re. the emblems. Unfortunately, there is no 'good side', as each side of the unit has one left-facing and one right-facing lion & wheel! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermoth Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Hi Flood, Don't worry, I take all constructive criticism as welcome observations and your point may stop others falling into the same trap. I am not au fait with the green period BR liveries, so that is how the mistake occurred. It is a pity the varnish is already on, but I am wondering if the transfers could still be removed. There is a glimmer of hope, as the emblems are the only transfers which were left with their carrier film left on. This means that the entire transfer could come away cleanly from the side leaving a patch of gloss-varnished side onto which a correct left-facing transfer could be re-applied. It also occurred to me that I could punch a hole of the correct diameter in to a piece of masking tape and just re-spray over the new transfer. I haven't given up yet! All the best, Colin You would have to be careful with the skin of the varnish that if you manage to take the transfer off it may bring more of the varnish off around it, is it not possible to cut round the edge of the transfer before removing it, is that not safer ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Godfrey Glyn Posted January 12, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2014 Colin, As ever a wonderful piece of work, I just sit and drool over everything you do. You could of course just leave the emblem as it is, then when Hornby or Bachmann, or anyone else brings one out with the same mistake you will be able claim royalties! I gather the Ordnance Survey always put a mistake into each map to catch out anyone who just copies their work. You mentioned that you are exhibiting in Mid-Wales this summer; can you let us know where and when? I need to plan in a visit to see your masterpieces in the plastic as it were! Lovely work and thanks for sharing everything you do. very best wishes Godfrey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Huw Griffiths Posted January 12, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2014 I gather the Ordnance Survey always put a mistake into each map to catch out anyone who just copies their work. Not just the Ordnance Survey, from what I've heard. I don't know if you remember a number of years back - Nick Crane did a BBC TV series called "Map Man". One of the programmes in this series homed in on the London A-Z atlas - and mentioned that they were doing something very similar. Apparently, they also had some means by which members of the public could contact them about errors in their maps / atlases. In the programme, they showed Nick Crane speaking to them about an error he was aware of (I think some cul-de-sac had been given the wrong name, or something like that). They then showed some guy amending this on a computer, ready for the next edition - at the same time as talking about their policy of deliberately introducing a small number of known minor errors into their maps, so they could tell if anyone tried copying their work and passing it off as their own. I'd be very surprised if this policy has changed in the intervening years. Huw. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted January 12, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 12, 2014 Hi All It is claimed that a well known model railway draftsman use to put an error in his coach drawings. And of course there is the error in Mike King's drawings of the compressor not being present but that is not Mike's fault. BR had removed them before he was able to measure the withdrawn stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted January 12, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) On my last layout there were at least two known mistakes that no one ever noticed at an exhibition. One was 2 6mm diamter holes in the trackbed where the telegraph poles were secured for transport and the other was a Midland Railway ventilated fruit van. Until I painted it i didn't discover that I'd assembled the sides upside down with the door hangers at the bottom. No one ever noticed despite it running as part of a freight where it must have circled the layout hundreds of times. Jamie Edited January 12, 2014 by jamie92208 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted January 12, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 12, 2014 Hi All It is claimed that a well known model railway draftsman use to put an error in his coach drawings. And of course there is the error in Mike King's drawings of the compressor not being present but that is not Mike's fault. BR had removed them before he was able to measure the withdrawn stock. Deliberate errors in plans is just stupid, people see these plans, think I wonder, make a model then find inaccuracies. If I introduced a deliberate error I could be sacked Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted January 12, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2014 If I introduced a deliberate error I could be sacked What happens if you introduce an accidental error? How can they tell the difference? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 12, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2014 On my last layout there were at least two known mistakes that no one ever noticed at an exhibition. One was 2 6mm diamter holes in the trackbed where the telegraph poles were secured for transport and the other was a Midland Railway ventilated fruit van. Until I painted it i didn't discover that I'd assembled the3 sides upside down with the door haners at the bottom. No one ever noticed despite it running as part of a freight where it must have circled the layout hundreds of times. Jamie I didn't like to say anything! Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted January 12, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 12, 2014 What happens if you introduce an accidental error? How can they tell the difference? Coding errors are obvious which they are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted January 13, 2014 Author Share Posted January 13, 2014 ! 14 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 What a clever fella you are. I'm glad it worked out fine in the end, I would have felt rotten if you'd tried to change it and things had gone wrong. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I'm glad the bullet-biting didn't backfire, Colin. Well done! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 Hi All It is claimed that a well known model railway draftsman use to put an error in his coach drawings. And of course there is the error in Mike King's drawings of the compressor not being present but that is not Mike's fault. BR had removed them before he was able to measure the withdrawn stock. Hi Clive, I have noticed the Mike King 4 SUB drawing does have an error on the driver's door which would trap the unwary. It would be for him to say if this was deliberate, but I find it hard to believe that draftsmen would introduce spoilers on purpose if the they are making the plans available to modellers rather than being confidential documents. However, rumours do abound and for certainty on any aspects of construction, I try to refer to prototype pictures where possible. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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