Where are the Hornby models?

[Coombe Barton]

Agreed, but you still have to retain customers - somehow. Only time will tell if they can be successful again.

[lofty1966]

Here you are.

Star.

All you have to do is put it together! Oh, and get a chassis and tender!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Premier-Kits-PK17-Star-Class-Body-kit-/151257104363?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item2337a03feb

I used to have one...but I was persuaded to part with it (that's another story entirely).......sat on an old airfix Castle chassis.....nice kits in their day.

 

Back to thread in hand

What a mess Hornby have got themselves into......no product=no future....can't sell thin air !

[Fenman]

Agreed, but you still have to retain customers - somehow. Only time will tell if they can be successful again.

 

I am genuinely mystified by your comment; if they have no product to sell, how on earth can they "retain customers"?

 

Surely a customer is someone who buys something. Nothing to buy? No customers...

 

Paul

[Fenman]

I am genuinely mystified by your comment; if they have no product to sell, how on earth can they "retain customers"?

 

Surely a customer is someone who buys something. Nothing to buy? No customers...

 

Paul

 

About a month or so ago, when all of us were commenting on how the number of new Hornby items was declining rapidly, I did a count of the number of Hornby products that had arrived into stock in Hattons in the last 60 days; it was 150. I posted it somewhere on here.

 

The same count today is 116 products. That's a fall of roughly 25% in a few weeks.

 

Honestly; why would any company in that situation put money and management time into staffing a big stand at an exhibition when they have very little to sell?

 

Paul

[Coombe Barton]

You still have to retain the limited faith your customers have - out of sight, out of mind is very true. Affording it is another matter - but having a null presence does not bode well for the future. Face the storm and come out - disappear and you have to regain those customers - much harder.

[brushman47544]

About a month or so ago, when all of us were commenting on how the number of new Hornby items was declining rapidly, I did a count of the number of Hornby products that had arrived into stock in Hattons in the last 60 days; it was 150. I posted it somewhere on here.

 

The same count today is 116 products. That's a fall of roughly 25% in a few weeks.

 

Honestly; why would any company in that situation put money and management time into staffing a big stand at an exhibition when they have very little to sell?

 

Paul

 

It's not just Hornby with production problems. I haven't done a count of Bachmann items, but I was looking at their website earlier this week and the number of products that were showing as "in stock " (i.e. the warehouse) compared to the full list was very much lower than in the past. There were also relatively few products with expected dates rather than the  § symbol for we don't know but not soon.

[Ian Hargrave]

So,whatever happened to something we used to call "public relations " ? Lose that and the inevitable is a loss of confidence.For goodness sake,no one WANTS to see Hornby's demise.This is no battle between two opposing partisan groups either...blue team in that corner opposing red team in this one.No manufacturer is beyond reproach or redemption .

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The Chinese new year effect. The factories shut down for the holiday, it's a moveable feast as it is determined by the lunar cyle; falls between mid Jan and mid Feb on the Western calendar. In light assembly industry like model railway, the annual staff turnover is around 30% and this is when most of it happens, so the restart is with a third of the assembly workforce new and requiring training, and much of the most experienced of the workforce gone. So typically some months after the holiday for the factory to be at expected output volume again, resulting in a reduced flow of product for around three months following the holiday.

 

As for Hornby under new management, they will have to find their own way. They are in possession of some rock solid brand names (at least in the UK) of which the trains element is the biggest. Just look at the way the previous team milked it for all they were worth with long amortised and inferior older product sold at premium price alongside the good newly tooled items; and seemingly with relatively little impact on customer perceptions. The brand is strong enough not to need any public courting for a short while as the new management gets their show on the road

 

I would imagine the new team will get retailer input and read opinion to form their take on the value of the business. They won't just bin it (at least not by intention!) but will look for ways to secure shareholder value from it. Ever the optimist, this could be very good news in the medium term.

[rembrow]

 

Just had quite a surprise at my local shop. Today they received from Hornby a second batch against their order of R4522A, BR Crimson Gresley Suburban Brake. The first release of this model was last September, and it flew off the shelves as the first non A model had in 2012. They only received 4 out of about 20 remaining on their order, so they don't know if further batches are to follow. This was unexpected as they had been unable to get an answer from Hornby about further stock and the item had disappeared from their back orders. Is this part of the agreement with Kader for provision of outstanding orders and release of tooling, whatever I'm very pleased to get a coach I'd given up hope of, and had preordered the B variant

[darren01]

Hi 

Hornby have since 2009 been saying supply problems, they have a had years to sort this out.

They can only blame themselves for the position they have got themselves in, I bet again later this year blame this for poor sales.

I am sorry but it's starting to wear thin using this excuse every time, I do not understand why it has taken them so long to sort/on going supply problem.

[The Stationmaster]

Hi 

Hornby have since 2009 been saying supply problems, they have a had years to sort this out.

They can only blame themselves for the position they have got themselves in, I bet again later this year blame this for poor sales.

I am sorry but it's starting to wear thin using this excuse every time, I do not understand why it has taken them so long to sort/on going supply problem.

I think part of the reason for not sorting it is because the root cause of the problem keeps changing.  Most recently it's because Kader have closed a former Sanda Kan factory which seems to have been a concentration site for manufacturing for the UK market -the subsequent move to another factory appears to have hit both Bachmann and Hornby branded items fairly equally with supplies of both disrupted or not appearing when expected.

 

Prior to that there was the problem first of Sanda Kan getting into difficulty, then being sold on and 'savings' being made then ultimately sale to Kader.  Every time there were probably personnel changes plus other changes which left people worrying about their future or simply jumping ship and for a long time (in the Frank Martin era) Hornby seemed to place a lot more faith in words than in actually getting involved with the factory and looking at underlying problems.  In fact that only seems to have happened in the past year but as a consequence production - and probably quality - has suffered as new suppliers were found and brought on stream.  And with the final move away from Kader not taking place until July no doubt there will still be some effects on production until the end of this year, maybe even longer.

 

Meanwhile the brand loses presence in the marketplace where the lust for the ever new seems to continue almost unabated although it might not necessarily translate into large volume.  Equally with the company undergoing re-organisation at senior level there might be a bit of introspection going on - it can be difficult to get decisions made (or make decisions) at times of such upheaval - especially if you're not used to reorganising and having to continue your business while you do so.  And at the same time there might be a lack of understanding, or even a lack of the need to understand, what part of your market is thinking and is saying about you.  And of course if at the same time product is still appearing in fits & starts folk can readily conclude that you don't care.

 

Once the Brand Manager gets his feet under the able I suspect we will notice change - perhaps most obviously starting with a professional looking 'Hornby Newsletter' regularly appearing on the 'net in the style of other r-t-r manufacturers and a lot more proactive rather than the reactive situation of the past.  Stage 1 of any battle is communication and even if product is coming forward at an unwelcome pace coming clean about that and whetting appetites for the future together with real information is a lot more positive than letting the likes of us run riot over the 'net with more conspiracy theories than surrounded the death of Kennedy.

[phil-b259]

Hi 

Hornby have since 2009 been saying supply problems, they have a had years to sort this out.

They can only blame themselves for the position they have got themselves in, I bet again later this year blame this for poor sales.

I am sorry but it's starting to wear thin using this excuse every time, I do not understand why it has taken them so long to sort/on going supply problem.

 

However its not an excuse - ITS THE GENUINE REASON.

 

Given that is the case no amount of complaining on here will alter the facts on the ground. From what we hear with the situation regarding ownership of the tooling plus the difficulties in getting a factory up and running with suitably skilled workforce is not something that can be fixed overnight - rush it, as we have seen with a number of recent releases and errors creep in.

 

Obviously there are legitimate questions to be asked, particularly within the PLC as to how things got into this state and whether they could have reasonably been foreseen beforehand (and from what has emerged over the past few years I am not sure the problems in China could have been foreseen 5 years ago before all the turmoil at Sanda Kan started).

 

Moving forward Hornby obviously have an issue with cashflow in the short term and while the decision to pull out of various model shows is a shame from a customer interaction point of view - there is a inescapable business logic behind it, namely if you haven't got stuff to promote why spend the money. We also have to remember that unlike many aspects of retail, railway modelling is an area where competition is relatively limited. If you want, say a King Arthur or a M7 then you have to purchase from Hornby, if you want a Standard 5 or a Lanky tank you have to purchase from Bachmann. Yes there are occasional duplications, but in cases where fully detailed models have gone head to head, both Horny and Bachmann have said its not worth it as all you do is split the sales, not increase the total number of sales overall. Hence over the years both companies have tended to drop models if they hear their competitor is bringing it out first.

 

Why is this important - well let us consider other things. If a retailer runs out of say milk or any other groceries - it doesn't matter to you the customer because there are plenty of competitors out there selling exactly the same thing. Clothing again is an area that generally (apart from expensive fashion labels) the consumer has plenty of choice and in these sectors supply issues can well become a matter of life and death of a retailer - simply because consumers don't have to wait until a particular retailer gets their stocks in - consumers can and will go elsewhere.

 

In the longer term, when Hornby have overcome their present difficulties (as the vast majority hope that they do) we may well see them return to becoming more involved in the exhibition scene. In the meantime there are plenty of relatively cheep options out there, particularly internet based ones which they can use to keep in touch with consumers or current thinking amongst modellers without the need to spend money on hotel rooms up and down the country. Hopefully as things get better at Hornby, their engagement will increase, but as has been said before if you actually have nothing to sell its better to keep quiet for a while rather than continue to go round promising "Jam tomorrow" - something that Hornby, under Frank Martin's chairmanship have been guilty of for a number of years now and we have all become tied of hearing.

[Removed a/c]

If you are talking about facebook and twitter as a cheap option, their involvement there is almost nil as well. Not exactly the greatest at customer relations !! Although that being said at least they have a facebook page. 

[M.Riddell]

I am genuinely mystified by your comment; if they have no product to sell, how on earth can they "retain customers"?

 

Surely a customer is someone who buys something. Nothing to buy? No customers...

 

Paul

 

That's the crux of the problem. The model rail division doesn't have product to sell, therefore no revenue. The plastic kit division is able to get product to market in a timely manner and therefore can generate revenue of some form. Yes, the company's sales are down, but for plastic kit modellers the Airfix brand is going from strength to strength. Hornby still have an intact reputation with them.

 

I know I'm harping on at that point, but I'm viewing it from a "glass half full" point of view. If the other sections of the company can tide things over, it gives Hornby a chance to sort out the supply and manufacturing problems that have so disillusioned the members of this forum.

 

Mike.

[phil-b259]

If you are talking about facebook and twitter as a cheap option, their involvement there is almost nil as well. Not exactly the greatest at customer relations !! Although that being said at least they have a facebook page. 

 

Using social media don't necessarily have to mean responding - after all most business are quite wary of social media these days, it only takes one misplaced word or a misunderstood comment to cause an awful lot of problems PR wise as several big names have found out over recent years.

 

However that doesn't mean social media isn't useful. Back in the pre internet age Hornby relied much more on face to face interaction at exhibitions to gauge the nature of the market they were selling to (and even back then the reps were still quite constrained as to what they could say to the public). These days there are plenty of websites to give them that feedback including this one. As Andy Y has said many times in the past just because there isn't a "Mr Hornby" on the membership list doesn't mean Hornby are unaware of this forum or the topics being debated on it - particularly as you don't have to be a member to read the specific forums Hornby might be interested in.

[Legend]

However its not an excuse - ITS THE GENUINE REASON.

 

Given that is the case no amount of complaining on here will alter the facts on the ground. From what we hear with the situation regarding ownership of the tooling plus the difficulties in getting a factory up and running with suitably skilled workforce is not something that can be fixed overnight - rush it, as we have seen with a number of recent releases and errors creep in.

 

Obviously there are legitimate questions to be asked, particularly within the PLC as to how things got into this state and whether they could have reasonably been foreseen beforehand (and from what has emerged over the past few years I am not sure the problems in China could have been foreseen 5 years ago before all the turmoil at Sanda Kan started).

 

Moving forward Hornby obviously have an issue with cashflow in the short term and while the decision to pull out of various model shows is a shame from a customer interaction point of view - there is a inescapable business logic behind it, namely if you haven't got stuff to promote why spend the money. We also have to remember that unlike many aspects of retail, railway modelling is an area where competition is relatively limited. If you want, say a King Arthur or a M7 then you have to purchase from Hornby, if you want a Standard 5 or a Lanky tank you have to purchase from Bachmann. Yes there are occasional duplications, but in cases where fully detailed models have gone head to head, both Horny and Bachmann have said its not worth it as all you do is split the sales, not increase the total number of sales overall. Hence over the years both companies have tended to drop models if they hear their competitor is bringing it out first.

 

Why is this important - well let us consider other things. If a retailer runs out of say milk or any other groceries - it doesn't matter to you the customer because there are plenty of competitors out there selling exactly the same thing. Clothing again is an area that generally (apart from expensive fashion labels) the consumer has plenty of choice and in these sectors supply issues can well become a matter of life and death of a retailer - simply because consumers don't have to wait until a particular retailer gets their stocks in - consumers can and will go elsewhere.

 

In the longer term, when Hornby have overcome their present difficulties (as the vast majority hope that they do) we may well see them return to becoming more involved in the exhibition scene. In the meantime there are plenty of relatively cheep options out there, particularly internet based ones which they can use to keep in touch with consumers or current thinking amongst modellers without the need to spend money on hotel rooms up and down the country. Hopefully as things get better at Hornby, their engagement will increase, but as has been said before if you actually have nothing to sell its better to keep quiet for a while rather than continue to go round promising "Jam tomorrow" - something that Hornby, under Frank Martin's chairmanship have been guilty of for a number of years now and we have all become tied of hearing.

If you want a King Arthur or M7 you have to buy Hornby...........except they have no product to sell, including Britannias, Castles etc. There is an opportunity here for Bachmann or other suppliers because Hornby just can't get their product to market? The position is dire.

[shunny]

Another observation from my local model shop is that they have looked to replace the lack of models with other brands such as they now sell Bachmann trainsets and this year told me they would split thier usual Hornby total between the 2 brands, they have also opened an account with Dapol recently and are now stocking some wagons and the recent Western. The result is that even when/if Hornby resolve the supply issues the shops and public are no longer as loyal to Hornby and the competition will much more widespread and reduce thier market share even further.

[Coombe Barton]

If you want a King Arthur or M7 you have to buy Hornby...........except they have no product to sell, including Britannias, Castles etc. There is an opportunity here for Bachmann or other suppliers because Hornby just can't get their product to market? The position is dire.

May be an opportunity, but the development time and cost is something any other manufacturer is going to be wary of because if/when Hornby get their act together they'll be so much further forward in bringing product to market. The second manufacturer will then have a "me too" product.

 

However there IS an opportunity for a small scale manufacturer of etched kits trying to satisfy a very small part of the market if they can get a kit out.

 

Wonder how the eBay costs are stacking up for hard to get items?

[Coombe Barton]

Another observation from my local model shop is that they have looked to replace the lack of models with other brands such as they now sell Bachmann trainsets and this year told me they would split thier usual Hornby total between the 2 brands, they have also opened an account with Dapol recently and are now stocking some wagons and the recent Western. The result is that even when/if Hornby resolve the supply issues the shops and public are no longer as loyal to Hornby and the competition will much more widespread and reduce thier market share even further.

The people who are able to vote with their feet with requisite clout are the dealers. Whereas we may buy one or two they're buying tens - assuming they can get them, of course.

[bigherb]

If you want a King Arthur or M7 you have to buy Hornby...........except they have no product to sell, including Britannias, Castles etc. There is an opportunity here for Bachmann or other suppliers because Hornby just can't get their product to market? The position is dire.

Nor have Bachmann have you tried to buy a green Diesel from their range very few about or the C class, if they have sold out of the initial run they have trouble doing any more.

[robmcg]

....

 

Wonder how the eBay costs are stacking up for hard to get items?

In my browsing and buying good second-hand quality Hornby models sell usually between £70 and £130, the latter for hard-to-find or slightly rare items, quality weathered rare versions are a bit less predictable and can be quite a bit more. In other words there is a healthy s/h market out there with some models being as new.

 

example for a mint factory weathered Hornby Bulleid rebuilt light Pacific 34003 'Plymouth', if I wanted one, I would expect to pay £100 or so, similar or a bit more for aftermarket-weathered Britannias, prices which are quite fair if in good condition and undamaged, but it does vary as with many auctions, sometimes no interest from buyers and a bargain, sometime three keen bidders and a high price.

 

Yesterday I bought at £84 a fairly rare Black 5 from Hornby's super-detail range, LMS no.5000 which is something of a significant engine in railway history, to me anyway (and that's what counts) and it is fun to browse and buy.

[Legend]

The problem is no one will bring out a loco that is in the Hornby range, because obviously duplication dilutes possible sales and returns. Meanwhile Hornby cannot deliver the models in their range , so the dead hand of Hornby is actually narrowing whats available in the market. We really do need this resolving soon , hopefully Hornby can find manufacturing capacity , but if not , and no matter how distasteful this is , it might be better for it to go and let other new entants, existing players take up the slack. Let Margate go concentate on Corgi, Airfix and Scalextric and let DJM, Bachmann, Dapol ,Heljan, Hattons, Kernow  , and who knows.......Kohler trains, take up the slack.

[robmcg]

I say a moratorium on all new super-detail UK prototype 00 RTR models until Hornby say they are ready to trade in this market again. To be regulated by a Fair Trading Commission, of yet to be organised formally, but using a recently observed Russian model of efficient management.

 

This will enhance the value of my collection of recent Hornby models in 'as-new' and second-hand sales, going forward....

 

Call it, focussed market intervention with results-oriented income stream optimisation in the near term.

[Dunsignalling]

The problem is no one will bring out a loco that is in the Hornby range, because obviously duplication dilutes possible sales and returns. Meanwhile Hornby cannot deliver the models in their range , so the dead hand of Hornby is actually narrowing whats available in the market. We really do need this resolving soon , hopefully Hornby can find manufacturing capacity , but if not , and no matter how distasteful this is , it might be better for it to go and let other new entants, existing players take up the slack. Let Margate go concentate on Corgi, Airfix and Scalextric and let DJM, Bachmann, Dapol ,Heljan, Hattons, Kernow  , and who knows.......Kohler trains, take up the slack.

It hasn't put Bachmann off in the past, 57xx (or rather 8750), Jinty, 4F, 9F to name but a few.

 

The common factor was that Hornby hadn't bothered improving what they had been churning out for years and the Bachmann replacement was streets ahead. 

 

There are several items that fall into that category today, and various suggestions from myself and others have been posted on the Bachmann forum. 

 

John

[robmcg]

You could reverse that sentiment, Dunsignalling, if you mention A4s, B1s and some others.  Hornby may have in your mind been 'churning out' models like the B12 and 4F but it has produced any number of outstanding state-of-the art models. A long list in fact, started by the Chinese-built Merchant Navy.

 

I'm biased, not because I dislike Bachmann, but because, by and large, I like large powerful steam prototypes. Can't wait for BR Garratts!