Where are the Hornby models?

[lofty1966]

It hasn't put Bachmann off in the past, 57xx (or rather 8750), Jinty, 4F, 9F to name but a few.

 

The common factor was that Hornby hadn't bothered improving what they had been churning out for years and the Bachmann replacement was streets ahead.

 

 

 

There are several items that fall into that category today, and various suggestions from myself and others have been posted on the Bachmann forum.

 

John

 

Let's be honest the Mainline 57xx was streets ahead of the Hornby version and that was released around  35 years ago !

[Dunsignalling]

You could reverse that sentiment, Dunsignalling, if you mention A4s, B1s and some others.  Hornby may have in your mind been 'churning out' models like the B12 and 4F but it has produced any number of outstanding state-of-the art models. A long list in fact, started by the Chinese-built Merchant Navy.

 

I'm biased, not because I dislike Bachmann, but because, by and large, I like large powerful steam prototypes. Can't wait for BR Garratts!

I have more wonderful big Hornby locos than I can really justify (including 7 Merchant Navies) and am fully appreciative of what they can do when they try and that they have redressed the balance somewhat with heavy freight locos and big tank engines in recent times.

 

My comment was about what they haven't been doing rather than what they have. They produce a number of models of popular smaller prototypes that were good in their day but which needed to be brought up to date long ago.

 

A general neglect of small and some medium-sized prototypes means that to build a reasonably balanced fleet of well-detailed locomotives needed to populate a realistic layout, there is no choice but to buy quite a lot of non-Hornby products.

 

Hornby have, overall, produced far more models geared to my Southern Region interests than any other maker but one cannot model a railway with Hornby alone and the Bachmann BR standards, Ivatt tank, N's and Lord Nelson are essential to complete the picture. The latter clearly illustrates that Hornby aren't the only ones who neglect to update their older models.

 

However, if Hornby don't improve on their Terrier (or whatever) or Bachmann their Lord Nelson, neither should be surprised if the other, or someone else, does.

 

John

[robmcg]

Ah, my liking for large usually green engines is probably why I don't photograph so many of the excellent examples of modelling by Bachmann... if  in the early 1960s I went to interesting railway locations it was usually because I wanted to see an express or heavy goods train pass, not watch a wheezing shunting engine which might not even move, much...

 

...but that's just me. I absolutely admire the model railways and dioramas built by members of this forum, and admire the standard of RTR models produced by Bachmann.  Also I have an irrational? fondness for Hornby born of running Bristol Castle and metal carriages on Hornby Dublo 3-rail layouts on the floor as a child.

[dibber25]

There is no quick fix for the production problems faced by the model railway industry. It is not just Hornby, it's most companies who manufacture in China. It's major North American manufacturers, too, who are unable to get product in quantity. Hornby is sourcing product from new, smaller factories with less experienced workforces. Hornby attempted to simplify some of its products by such things as moulded handrails. The choice was straightforward - a simplified product or no product at all. Neither option has been popular with customers. I was told back at last year's Warley show that Bachmann was having difficulty with staffing because many of Kader's workforce had returned to their rural homes, where the Chinese government has built new factories so they don't have to live most of the year in dormitories. Those factories make high volume, big margin items, not model railways. Hornby's presence at model railway exhibitions - at least some of the medium-sized and smaller shows - is a comparatively recent phenomenon. It probably relates directly to Simon Kohler's willingness to give up his weekends and initially it involved the use of a truck/trailer (a converted screening clinic of some sort). I believe disabled access problems ended that, and doubtless the more recent show arrangements would have been a lot more expensive and very difficult to justify. It hardly makes sense to keep 'a show on the road' when you are cutting jobs back home.

CHRIS LEIGH

['CHARD]

In answer to the OP, here's one:

 

http://www.Hornby.com/shop/train-packs/dcc-ready-train-packs/r3185-south-eastern-sir-chris-hoy-class-395-javelin-train-pack?utm_campaign=Hornby_Newsletter_Issue98_195928&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=CM_hornby

 

Modern EMU.  Train pack.  £165 price tag.  They presumably sell, to someone....

[Igor]

There is no quick fix for the production problems faced by the model railway industry. It is not just Hornby, it's most companies who manufacture in China. It's major North American manufacturers, too, who are unable to get product in quantity. Hornby is sourcing product from new, smaller factories with less experienced workforces. Hornby attempted to simplify some of its products by such things as moulded handrails. The choice was straightforward - a simplified product or no product at all. Neither option has been popular with customers. I was told back at last year's Warley show that Bachmann was having difficulty with staffing because many of Kader's workforce had returned to their rural homes, where the Chinese government has built new factories so they don't have to live most of the year in dormitories. Those factories make high volume, big margin items, not model railways. CHRIS LEIGH

I think this a broken record now, an excuse that has been swallowed by magazines and trotted out for the last three years or so... I bet Hornby can't believe we are still spouting this out. If it was a big issue it would have been sorted, and sorted quickly. People I buy stuff off are only slow in sending it out if I am tardy in actually paying for it!

[Ozexpatriate]

I say a moratorium on all new super-detail UK prototype 00 RTR models until Hornby say they are ready to trade in this market again.

Of course there's the slight problem of the necessary liquidity to actually stay in business during this period.

[robmcg]

Of course there's the slight problem of the necessary liquidity to actually stay in business during this period.

I'm sure the bank will be sympathetic to a well-phrased business plan going forward....

[Andy Hayter]

I think this a broken record now, an excuse that has been swallowed by magazines and trotted out for the last three years or so... I bet Hornby can't believe we are still spouting this out.

Are you suggesting that the magazines are somehow colluding with Hornby to create the impression of shortages in Production in China? To what end? Where would the magazines benefit? Surely one would break ranks and scoop the Hornby "fraud" if there were one.

 

 

 

If it was a big issue it would have been sorted, and sorted quickly.

If you had read carefully you would have seen it IS a big issue. Nothing to sell equals making a loss, Making a loss means reorganisation and a cut back in staffing in Margate. But having nothing to sell means that even that will not be enough.

 

People I buy stuff off are only slow in sending it out if I am tardy in actually paying for it!

Perhaps those people have something to sell.

 

As others have said several times the problems are not restricted to Hornby - although Hornby may be being affected more than most companies. But if you chose not to believe this (and from your post it seems not) then please explain a few supply problems that I am personally affected by:

 

1. Bachmann - Wainwright C class - re-release in new liveries, so no issues of tooling (which exists). Promised September 2013 and is now posted for June/July 2014. Or do you think that Bachmann are also part of and party to the conspiracy?

 

2. LS Models/Modern Gala - their 2014 program of releases has shrunk to almost nothing, having managed to sell out of everything they brought to market in 2013 within weeks (one exception where they had a major livery glitch). That does sound a lot like Hornby, except that Hornby have announced an ambitious program for 2014.

 

3. REE Modeles - I picked up their latest catalogue mid December which contained a very tasty BB 67000. The pre-production examples were on display and there to see The catalogue promised this for early Q2 2014. By Nuremburg that had slipped to 2015!

 

 

In fact of the European manufacturers the only one I can think of who seems not to suffer from major supply issues is Roco - and they produce in Romania and the Slovak Republic. So why don't the rest do that?

 

http://www.pierredominique.com/art-32562-locomotive-vapeur-231-sncf-nouveau-tender-37a-114.html

 

OK if you are ready to pay 449€ for a bog standard Pacific (not DCC fitted and no sound)- say £360.

[mevaman]

I think this a broken record now, an excuse that has been swallowed by magazines and trotted out for the last three years or so... I bet Hornby can't believe we are still spouting this out. If it was a big issue it would have been sorted, and sorted quickly. People I buy stuff off are only slow in sending it out if I am tardy in actually paying for it!

I struggle to find an adequate response!

 

Model Railways are a tiny niche market and the point that Chris makes is absolutely valid. All model railway manufacturers and commissioning shops have faced significant delays from China for the last few years. Just ask anyone in the business and you will get the same answer. It is clearly not a conspiracy!

[dibber25]

I struggle to find an adequate response!

 

Model Railways are a tiny niche market and the point that Chris makes is absolutely valid. All model railway manufacturers and commissioning shops have faced significant delays from China for the last few years. Just ask anyone in the business and you will get the same answer. It is clearly not a conspiracy!

So do I. However, there is a 'flat Earth' approach among some modellers who fail to grasp that the problems in China are not something which Hornby or anyone else can solve by kicking a few proverbial backsides. National economies move on. Those old enough to remember, may recall that US manufacturers chased 'cheap' hand-made brass models across the Pacific from Japan to Korea and now with the necessary skills not available anywhere else, the 'brass' market has shrunk considerably and what is made is very expensive. Model railways ARE a tiny niche market, so small that I doubt it is even on the Chinese government's radar when it comes to thinking about national issues. The government needed to get its people out of dormitories and back living at home. They've done it, and in so doing the labour force for making model trains now lives at home and makes high volume, high margin electronic goods instead. That's not something the magazines invented or something that Hornby can do anything about. It IS A FACT and no amount of ostrich-like denial will change it. It was actually explained to me, in some detail by two people, one from a major UK model company, (NOT Hornby) the other from a modest-sized North American company. Both have Chinese manufacturing plants. Both have trouble getting, training and keeping labour. 

CHRIS LEIGH

[brushman47544]

So do I. However, there is a 'flat Earth' approach among some modellers who fail to grasp that the problems in China are not something which Hornby or anyone else can solve by kicking a few proverbial backsides. National economies move on. Those old enough to remember, may recall that US manufacturers chased 'cheap' hand-made brass models across the Pacific from Japan to Korea and now with the necessary skills not available anywhere else, the 'brass' market has shrunk considerably and what is made is very expensive. Model railways ARE a tiny niche market, so small that I doubt it is even on the Chinese government's radar when it comes to thinking about national issues. The government needed to get its people out of dormitories and back living at home. They've done it, and in so doing the labour force for making model trains now lives at home and makes high volume, high margin electronic goods instead. That's not something the magazines invented or something that Hornby can do anything about. It IS A FACT and no amount of ostrich-like denial will change it. It was actually explained to me, in some detail by two people, one from a major UK model company, (NOT Hornby) the other from a modest-sized North American company. Both have Chinese manufacturing plants. Both have trouble getting, training and keeping labour. 

CHRIS LEIGH

 

Thank you, again, Chris. Having now received a couple of Hornby models previously produced by Sanda Kan and now by Refined Industries, it does at least look as though Hornby has found a new supplier that can produce models using its more finely detailed tooling. In the case of my BR green Van Bs, the Refined one is in some ways better as there is less excess glue round the windows. Both look and run equally well. but that's not of course a highly detailed locomotive unlike the recent A4s people have complained about. Hopefully Hornby's new factories will slowly come up to speed and be able to produce good highly detailed models soon, but I suspect that production capacity will never return to the levels seen before, and more so for the higher detailed models, for both Hornby and Bachmann and as a result we may well see far fewer new (whether all new or re-liveries) higher detailed models in each year's catalogue.

 

Unless of course the manufacturer's find a new manufacturing base to replace China.

[The Dorset Wanderer]

So do I. However, there is a 'flat Earth' approach among some modellers who fail to grasp that the problems in China are not something which Hornby or anyone else can solve by kicking a few proverbial backsides. National economies move on. Those old enough to remember, may recall that US manufacturers chased 'cheap' hand-made brass models across the Pacific from Japan to Korea and now with the necessary skills not available anywhere else, the 'brass' market has shrunk considerably and what is made is very expensive. Model railways ARE a tiny niche market, so small that I doubt it is even on the Chinese government's radar when it comes to thinking about national issues. The government needed to get its people out of dormitories and back living at home. They've done it, and in so doing the labour force for making model trains now lives at home and makes high volume, high margin electronic goods instead. That's not something the magazines invented or something that Hornby can do anything about. It IS A FACT and no amount of ostrich-like denial will change it. It was actually explained to me, in some detail by two people, one from a major UK model company, (NOT Hornby) the other from a modest-sized North American company. Both have Chinese manufacturing plants. Both have trouble getting, training and keeping labour. 

CHRIS LEIGH

I will confirm that staement- coming from another industry entirely we are having one of our suppliers having to change factories because there is insufficient labour where the current facility is- this means more delays etc. etc. so Hornby and others have my sympathy and share a lot of their frustrations

Steve

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Having now received a couple of Hornby models previously produced by Sanda Kan and now by Refined Industries, it does at least look as though Hornby has found a new supplier that can produce models using its more finely detailed tooling...

I would be interested to know whether the B17/2 (which I bought immediately it became available end January this year) is one of the last production runs out of Sanda Kan, or from one of the new suppliers. As a model it is fully up to Hornby's best previous standards. I have my suspicions: no two factories do things quite alike, even using the same tooling, and when you look inside some things have been done slightly differently.

[Nimbus]

For detailed/complicated models... It will be a pre drilled,"CKD" style self assembly model going forwards.

 

By Airfix maybe? 

 

I can imagine the frisson of opening my first new-tool Airfix rolling stock kit for 50 years. But then I look at their aircraft range and realise that what was once a 3-bob bag now comes in a 15-quid box!

 

The Nim.

[dibber25]

I would be interested to know whether the B17/2 (which I bought immediately it became available end January this year) is one of the last production runs out of Sanda Kan, or from one of the new suppliers. As a model it is fully up to Hornby's best previous standards. I have my suspicions: no two factories do things quite alike, even using the same tooling, and when you look inside some things have been done slightly differently.

You can tell by checking the code on the white panel on the back of the box. SK (Sander Kan) REF (Refined Industries) RE (Regal) - there may yet be others. 

CHRIS LEIGH

[rembrow]

You can tell by checking the code on the white panel on the back of the box. SK (Sander Kan) REF (Refined Industries) RE (Regal) - there may yet be others. 

CHRIS LEIGH

This is a really helpful and useful piece of information from Chris (Dibber). I've checked against some recently released coach models that were high quality types with separately fitted detail and compared to previously released versions.

The BR Southern Bogie Brake van for example, the R4536A version has an SK (Sanda Kan) reference, but the R 4536B recently released version is REF (Refined Industries). Similarly     the A suffix versions of the Gresley Suburban BR crimson coaches have an REF code, which includes those produced last August/September. The latest versions of the BR Gresley corridor stock also have an REF code.The recently released R4538 BR Open Second Maunsell coack has an SK reference.

Overall this indicates that much of the previously Sanda Kan manufactured, high quality coach items, have had tooling transferred to a different manufacturer, and in some cases (Gresley suburban crimson stock) they had been transferred last year. This is positive, as I had not seen any change in quality with the REF based products as these coaches all have a significant amount of individually affixed items, in fact with the latest Gresley corridor maroon stock I had remarked to my model shop that I thought the lining was finer and less 'bright' than previous versions 

[Free At Last]

R3119 Duchess of Abercorn, which was announced for 2012 has finally arrived in Liverpool and will be getting allocated to my shed shortly.

[Silver Sidelines]

Oops I see Rails Have received an L1.  Would it be naughty to point out that they have photographed a model where the smokebox handle has broken off.

 

Apologies

 

Ray

[M.Riddell]

Oops I see Rails Have received an L1.  Would it be naughty to point out that they have photographed a model where the smokebox handle has broken off.

 

Apologies

 

Ray

Not the first time I've seen that. If I remember correctly Hattons did the same thing with an O1 - may have been one of the BR liveried ones.

 

I bought a second hand NRM Butler Henderson at Perth last year and it had the dart missing too. Perhaps if both manufacturers started making that particular part out of metal rather than plastic it might last a bit longer!!

 

Mike.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

You can tell by checking the code on the white panel on the back of the box. SK (Sander Kan) REF (Refined Industries) RE (Regal) - there may yet be others. 

CHRIS LEIGH

That's very useful indeed and much appreciated. I shall inspect the box exteriors closely before recycling them in future!  

[orcadian]

I would be interested to know whether the B17/2 (which I bought immediately it became available end January this year) is one of the last production runs out of Sanda Kan, or from one of the new suppliers. 

Look on the box - as has been said on other threads about Hornby models.  On a white label, the manufacturing source is shown in a very abbreviated form.  SK means Sander etc, other codes show it was made elsewhere.

 

Fast finger mis-spelling corrected!

 

Richard

[Mike70]

Has anybody got their hands on R3119 Duchess Of Abercorn yet?

 

I've already got the Duchess in LMS red, with smoke deflectors.

 

Quite fancy this one without the smoke deflectors.

But I just wondered what the build quality is like?

[Ian Hargrave]

Has anybody got their hands on R3119 Duchess Of Abercorn yet?

 

I've already got the Duchess in LMS red, with smoke deflectors.

 

Quite fancy this one without the smoke deflectors.

But I just wondered what the build quality is like?

Arrived today .In stock at Rails and Hattons

[Mike70]

Arrived today .In stock at Rails and Hattons

Ian,

 

Are you saying yours arrived today? 

 

Are you happy with it?