Headshunt: A question about terminology

[Mikkel]

I wonder if anyone can help me with the correct use of terms here.  

 

My next layout in the little Farthing series will show a small part of a goods yard, focussing on the tail-end of a "ladder" of sidings. Because the sidings were accessed through a kick-back arrangement, it will allow a bit of shunting in a very small space. The prototype inspiration is from Gloucester Old Yard, as seen in the track plan here. 

 

 

However can anyone tell me what the correct British term is for the end of the ladder indicated here with a blue arrow? I had assumed "headshunt", or does that apply to the whole "core" of the track ladder indicated in red here?

 

Being a bl**dy foreigner I am also a little uncertain about what is UK and US terminology, and what the differences are. Eg is there difference between what I am talking about here and what Americans seem to call a "lead"?

 

I have searched the web and gone to the books, but am still unsure and would like to get the terminology right.

 

[andyman7]

I think you are correct first time - it is the length of track that stock can be backed into prior to drawing either into sidings or out on to the main line.

[Fat Controller]

'Neck' ,sometimes 'shunting neck' is also used (see Hinksey Yard, Oxford), interchangeably; a quick look through Quail also shows 'spur' (at the west end of ADJ Yard, Newport, for example) and 'shunt spur' (Tavistock Jct Yard). These are just the ones I found in the WR book; others might be found elsewhere.

[Xerces Fobe2]

On my Croxley Wiggenhall Road depot layout access to the shed is via a headshunt makes for some interesting stock movements especially when the headshunt is of limited length!

 

Nigel

[Joseph_Pestell]

That map does not look like sidings but an MPD (there is what seems to be a coaling stage).

 

in a goods yard, it would be odd for the headshunt/neck to be so short relative to the length of the sidings served.

[Mikkel]

Thanks all for this, it makes things clearer in my mind.

 

That map does not look like sidings but an MPD (there is what seems to be a coaling stage).

 

in a goods yard, it would be odd for the headshunt/neck to be so short relative to the length of the sidings served.

 

One of the interesting things about Gloucester Old Yard is that the headshunt discussed here served a variety of purposes, as illustrated below. The short neck (as I''ll now call it) was only used if (i) the train in question was so long that you had to back all the way into it in order to access whichever siding you wanted, or (ii) when the so-called "biscuit" siding needed to be served. There is an interesting description of how this was worked in a series in GWRJ dealing with Gloucester Old Yard. 

 

 

 

 

I've written a bit more about this here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/75/entry-11222-third-bite-the-sidings/

[The Stationmaster]

'Neck' ,sometimes 'shunting neck' is also used (see Hinksey Yard, Oxford), interchangeably; a quick look through Quail also shows 'spur' (at the west end of ADJ Yard, Newport, for example) and 'shunt spur' (Tavistock Jct Yard). These are just the ones I found in the WR book; others might be found elsewhere.

Western everyday vernacular tended in my experience to use the word 'spur', or much less frequently,  'shunt spur' although occasionally I have heard the word 'headshunt' used (most often by non-operating folk!).  The last time I was at Gloucester that particular piece of railway marked by the blue arrow - it's still there I think, was called the 'shed spur' or 'the spur' depending on where the move was coming from /going to (in my case in order to save a bit of time I was driving, slightly unofficially, a 'Castle' and set back up the spur in order to get to the signal to come off shed - at which point the BR crew arrived).

[Mikkel]

Thanks for that Mike, that's interesting. I had considered "spur", but thought it was just a general term for a very short bit of track. But clearly there's more to it.

 

Yes it seems to be still there, which I find fascinating. Here it is on Google maps. So you've been driving a Castle there, eh? I'm Great Western green with envy!

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=da&ll=51.864461,-2.23307&spn=0.001027,0.00283&t=h&z=19

[The Bigbee Line]

That map does not look like sidings but an MPD (there is what seems to be a coaling stage).

 

in a goods yard, it would be odd for the headshunt/neck to be so short relative to the length of the sidings served.

At Haywards Heath there was a headshunt that took a loco and 8 wagons to and from the sand sidings.  What is the length here (normal wagon 16'6 - 17'6 over headstocks)

[pointstaken]

Mikkel,

 

You are NOT "a bl**dy foreigner", you are a respected member of and contributor to this forum, that is all that matters. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs their balls kicked into touch. End of story.

 

Dennis

[Mikkel]

At Haywards Heath there was a headshunt that took a loco and 8 wagons to and from the sand sidings.  What is the length here (normal wagon 16'6 - 17'6 over headstocks)

 

Very short! The spur beyond the point served the "biscuit sidings" with a few vans and later empty Loco Coal wagons. They were gravity shunted into the siding one at the time. On the layout I will extend the spur to allow a bit of loco shunting. 

 

Mikkel,

 

You are NOT "a bl**dy foreigner", you are a respected member of and contributor to this forum, that is all that matters. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs their balls kicked into touch. End of story.

 

Dennis

 

Thanks Dennis :-) But it is sometimes hard for us primitive tribes here on the Continent to distinguish between English English and Americanisms. The horror! 

 

I don't blame people for wondering about the layout plan. It is not particularly obvious, but I like to try and "frame" layouts a little differently. If it doesn't work out, at least I tried :-)

 

[Fat Controller]

My French colleagues refer to the headshunt at Cheriton as 'ze 'eadshunt'...

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for that Mike, that's interesting. I had considered "spur", but thought it was just a general term for a very short bit of track. But clearly there's more to it.

 

Yes it seems to be still there, which I find fascinating. Here it is on Google maps. So you've been driving a Castle there, eh? I'm Great Western green with envy!

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=da&ll=51.864461,-2.23307&spn=0.001027,0.00283&t=h&z=19

A long while ago Mikkel, back in the days when I was involved with preservation and we did some mainline running.  Alas on the previous day we suffered some leaking tubes so we had to chuck out the fire to allow the boilersmith into the firebox and by the time he finished we were faced with only a few hours before we went off shed so it was some high speed steam raising and everything all over the place plus the BR crew not wishing to get involved with the hard part of getting the final bits of the prep done and getting the fire fully made up.  So they waited in the cabin while we got the fire built up and we were then getting very close to time so I 'agreed' to take the engine as far as the shed signal while they finished their breakfast and only had a short walk afterwards which meant we actually went off shed only a few minutes late and the Fireman had an easy start to his day.

[JOHNMCDRAGON]

Just to add to the question of 'foreign' terminology, I remember standing waiting for a train at Kyoto station in Japan, and being a large city the electronic train describer boards were also in English. I noticed to my amusement that trains in the bay platform that we would describe as 'terminating here' were described as a 'dead head'. A mix-up of English terminology to us but I knew what they meant.

[wirey33]

<Daily Mail Mode ON>

 

Yes he IS a bl**dy foreigner.

 

Coming over here, stealing our track plans, modeling our great nation.

 

Go home and take your strange HO gauge with you.

 

<Daily Mail Mode OFF>

 

 

[NB. I would like it known that I wouldn’t even use the Daily Mail to stuff under my scenery for fear someone might uncover it years later and get the wrong impression]

 

 

Mikkel,

 

I like the idea of having a small layout which really shows the “business end” of a yard. How are you going to produce the scenic break ?

 

For reference the Wikipedia entry for Headshunt also mentions shunting neck or shunt spur.

 

 

Cheers

 

Simon

 

 

 

 

 

[Fat Controller]

Just to add to the question of 'foreign' terminology, I remember standing waiting for a train at Kyoto station in Japan, and being a large city the electronic train describer boards were also in English. I noticed to my amusement that trains in the bay platform that we would describe as 'terminating here' were described as a 'dead head'. A mix-up of English terminology to us but I knew what they meant.

For some reason, the picture that comes to mind is of a train filled with men of a certain age, wearing tie-dye Tee-shirts and grey curls, singing 'Uncle John's Band'...

[Mikkel]

 

<Daily Mail Mode ON>

 

Yes he IS a bl**dy foreigner.

 

Coming over here, stealing our track plans, modeling our great nation.

 

Go home and take your strange HO gauge with you.

 

<Daily Mail Mode OFF>

 

 

[NB. I would like it known that I wouldn’t even use the Daily Mail to stuff under my scenery for fear someone might uncover it years later and get the wrong impression]

 

 

Mikkel,

 

I like the idea of having a small layout which really shows the “business end” of a yard. How are you going to produce the scenic break ?

 

For reference the Wikipedia entry for Headshunt also mentions shunting neck or shunt spur.

 

 

Cheers

 

Simon

 

 

Hi Simon, I resent that! I'll take the track plans, the models and the girls (oh wait, you didn't mention the girls), but I take absolutely no responsbility for HO gauge! Blame that on the Germans!

 

"Where the action is", that's a nice way of putting it.  As for for the scenic break, the plan so far is to just have a few structures strategically placed. I feel that as long as there is something to distract the mind, it works just as well as a more substantial scenic break (well for me at least!). The real challenge as I see it is the backscene. I originally planned not to have one and just have a layout that was viewable from all sides, but I admit it will be a challenge when taking photos etc...

[gwrrob]

 

 

 

 

Hi Simon, I resent that! I'll take the track plans, the models and the girls (oh wait, you didn't mention the girls), but I take absolutely no responsbility for HO gauge! Blame that on the Germans!

 

"Where the action is", that's a nice way of putting it.  As for for the scenic break, the plan so far is to just have a few structures strategically placed. I feel that as long as there is something to distract the mind, it works just as well as a more substantial scenic break (well for me at least!). The real challenge as I see it is the backscene. I originally planned not to have one and just have a layout that was viewable from all sides, but I admit it will be a challenge when taking photos etc...

 

 

Entertaining as ever Mikkel.I look forward to seeing this develop in your wonderful style.Keep us posted.

[buckdancer]

For some reason, the picture that comes to mind is of a train filled with men of a certain age, wearing tie-dye Tee-shirts and grey curls, singing 'Uncle John's Band'...

You read my mind....

[Oldddudders]

Just to add to the question of 'foreign' terminology, I remember standing waiting for a train at Kyoto station in Japan, and being a large city the electronic train describer boards were also in English. I noticed to my amusement that trains in the bay platform that we would describe as 'terminating here' were described as a 'dead head'. A mix-up of English terminology to us but I knew what they meant.

Not a mix-up to a US railroader, where "deadheading" is the running of a passenger train not carrying passengers. Naturally, Japanese "English" is US-based, as it is in many other parts of the world.

[GordonC]

 

 

 

 

Hi Simon, I resent that! I'll take the track plans, the models and the girls (oh wait, you didn't mention the girls), but I take absolutely no responsbility for HO gauge! Blame that on the Germans!

 

"Where the action is", that's a nice way of putting it.  As for for the scenic break, the plan so far is to just have a few structures strategically placed. I feel that as long as there is something to distract the mind, it works just as well as a more substantial scenic break (well for me at least!). The real challenge as I see it is the backscene. I originally planned not to have one and just have a layout that was viewable from all sides, but I admit it will be a challenge when taking photos etc...

 

 

Erm ... is it not our OO guage thats the odd one ... the model and bodywork scale doesn't match the track scale!! Isn't that entirely of our own making rather than 'zee Germans'

 

HO does at least match up and we dont get all the OO ... EM ... P4 flavours of the 'same' scale

[wirey33]

Erm ... is it not our OO guage thats the odd one ... the model and bodywork scale doesn't match the track scale!! Isn't that entirely of our own making rather than 'zee Germans'

 

HO does at least match up and we dont get all the OO ... EM ... P4 flavours of the 'same' scale

 

I model in P4; leaving me beyond recrimination in such matters.

[Mikkel]

Erm ... is it not our OO guage thats the odd one ... the model and bodywork scale doesn't match the track scale!! Isn't that entirely of our own making rather than 'zee Germans'

 

HO does at least match up and we dont get all the OO ... EM ... P4 flavours of the 'same' scale

 

No doubt. But fellow Danish modellers have been telling me this for so long that I've closed my ears to it

[Pacific231G]

I wonder if anyone can help me with the correct use of terms here.

 

My next layout in the little Farthing series will show a small part of a goods yard, focussing on the tail-end of a "ladder" of sidings. Because the sidings were accessed through a kick-back arrangement, it will allow a bit of shunting in a very small space. The prototype inspiration is from Gloucester Old Yard, as seen in the track plan here.

 

Image1.jpg

 

However can anyone tell me what the correct British term is for the end of the ladder indicated here with a blue arrow? I had assumed "headshunt", or does that apply to the whole "core" of the track ladder indicated in red here?

 

Being a bl**dy foreigner I am also a little uncertain about what is UK and US terminology, and what the differences are. Eg is there difference between what I am talking about here and what Americans seem to call a "lead"?

 

I have searched the web and gone to the books, but am still unsure and would like to get the terminology right.

Seek not the "correct" term as in English there's very unlikely to be one, just a number of terms used to mean either the same or slightly different things in different places.More often than not they didn't seem to even be given a name . AFAIK the Americans use Yard Lead to mean much the same thing.

 

BTW you can't blame H0 on the Germans (or the Americans).It's as British as Wimbledon. Quite literally as it was proved and then promoted as the correct scale for 00 GAUGE track by a group based on Britain's second oldest club the Wimbledon MRC. It was then the editor of Model Railway News who named it H0, to differentiate it from 4mm/ft scale with 16 or 16.5mm gauge track which was becoming common.

 

In the early 1950s the Germans actually tried to persuade European modellers to adopt 1:80 scale for H0 but fortunately wisdom prevailed.