Modern Image - is the phrase outdated?

[PatB]

I don't hsave anything constructive to contribute (although, for what it's worth, I see nothing wrong with simply stipulating a date range), but this thread has just brought me to the slightly uncomfortable realisation that the span of time that has passed since the term "modern image" was coined (mid-1960s as far as I can tell) is longer than that lying between it and the Grouping. Or, to put it another way, a green/early blue diesel layout is now more historical than Buckingham Great Central or the Craig and Mertonford were in their heyday .

[Taigatrommel]

Two 'wrongs' don't make a 'right', and I don't recall it being announced as official DEMU policy - the thread was started by an individual posing a discussion point. Not really sure what DEMU has to do with it - surely the term has interest to all modellers and wider implications.

 

G.

 

 

All right then, DEMU members- though it was published by you in UpDate after all, inviting discussion on how to rid the railway modelling scene of the phrase.  It's nonsense like this that makes me ashamed to be a member.  As a good few posters have rightly said, diesel/electric era is no more useful a phrase than modern image, and it's not like it's even derogatory.   It's just a pointless high horse.

[grahame]

 

 it was published by you in UpDate after all, inviting discussion on how to rid the railway modelling scene of the phrase.  It's nonsense like this that makes me ashamed to be a member.

 

 

Yes, I did publish comment about it from a member, but as you are probably aware and as is stated in UPDate "any views expressed are not necessarily those of DEMU or the editor". I certainly didn't invite "discussion on how to rid the railway modelling scene of the phrase" but asked for comments and responses with the specific option of 'yes and no' to allow expression of all opinions.

 

Having reasonable discussion about things is perfectly healthy and normal, and I perfectly understand that there are at least two sides to every discussion point - I don't think it implies that there is anything untoward or any nonsense from DEMU. After all, as Steve1 confirmed, there is no official DEMU policy on the matter.

 

I'm sorry that you feel ashamed - I'm sure that wasn't the OP intensions in starting the thread and it certainly wasn't mine in UPDate.

 

GRAHAME

DEMU UPDate editor.  

[Iain Popplewell]

Before we banish "Modern Image" - we need a substitute, how about the following?

 

1950s Modernisation Plan diesels

1960s Transition Era

1970s Rail Blue

1980s Sectorisation

1990s Early Privatisation

2000s First Franchise

2010s Second Franchise?

 

On the other hand - lets just give the decade!

 

Please let's not adopt the ambiguous "Epochs" used for Continental models!

Far be it for me to endorse the posting of a fellow modeller instead of coming up with my own brilliant suggestion,but I think this third posting on the thread hit the nail squarely on the head.Nothing else to be done other than adopt this system it's simple,understandable and logical.

[ThaneofFife]

tbh i dont see or hear the phrase modern image too much these days and see little point in coming up with a new raft of descriptions for all the post- steam eras of D&E.

 

yes you can go down the various sectors and post privatisation route etc but even todays trains will become old eventually according to my friend Sherlock and will no longer "modern image" if by that we mean the last few years - you can go round in circles on this and i for one wont be referring to any layout of mine as huh hum...."First Franchise" et al.

 

Its largely down to the individuals age IMO and what they feel at home with - i think most of the time friends who mix in our circles will know straight away what you YOU mean when you utter the words MI.  

[ThaneofFife]

I don't think you can have a plan for what other people say.  

 

It strikes me this thread is not about what terms those posting  use but is intended as a message to others as to what you think those others should say, or be allowed to say.....

"

 

I think this poster is spot on.  the "discussion" to give it some credence comes every now and again and old ground oft covered.

Edited November 18, 2013 by ThaneofFife

[coachmann]

With respect, Welly's suggestion fails to take into account overlapping, which was always taking place on Britains railways. But if folk want to go down that road, carry on and do your thing without trying to get the rest of us involved. As I suggested at the beginning of this thread, I'm a simplist at heart and 'Modern Image' is the starting point while the rider gives the detail such as circa 1986 or whatever. In it's simplest form, Steam Era, Narrow Gauge, Industrial and Modern Image appear to me to be adequate seeing as many folk find them informative enough to help them avoid some exhibitions. I am instinctively wary of persuaders because they start of with one thing and end up trying to pass laws!   

[IWCR]

I have  no  problems  with  the  phrase  Modern  Image

I  would  use  this  to  describe  a  layout  portraying  the  current  day.

The  passage  of  time  will  of  course  effect  this.

For  example  a  layout  built  in  the  1970's  showing  the  BR  blue  era  was  at  that  time  "Modern  Image"

The  same  layout  today  would  not  be,  it  is  now  a  historical  model  and  should  be  defined  by  its  era.

 

Pete

[alfsboy]

My four year old Grandson says "its modern " when he sees a EMU flash by in Surrey  as opposed to "old" steam engines" which he also loves up here in Norfolk on the NNR .Out of the mouth of babes etc ....

[newbryford]

I have  no  problems  with  the  phrase  Modern  Image

I  would  use  this  to  describe  a  layout  portraying  the  current  day.

The  passage  of  time  will  of  course  effect  this.

For  example  a  layout  built  in  the  1970's  showing  the  BR  blue  era  was  at  that  time  "Modern  Image"

The  same  layout  today  would  not  be,  it  is  now  a  historical  model  and  should  be  defined  by  its  era.

 

Pete

 

That's where some (virtually all?) of the problem and discussion lies. As Clive says above in post #63, his green diesel layout was described as modern image by an exhibition manager, when clearly it is not modern in the true sense as you've outlined above.

Admittedly "steam age diesel depot" is a bit misleading - "1960's green diesels" may have been more understandable.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Ray M]

I`m going with "Why is this so rarely modeled" era, for my own layout.

[coachmann]

I`m going with "Why is this so rarely modeled" era, for my own layout.

I think mine must fit into that category. It models midnight Saturday until 5am Monday line occupation and track relaying...

[Glorious NSE]

That's where some (virtually all?) of the problem and discussion lies. As Clive says above in post #63, his green diesel layout was described as modern image by an exhibition manager, when clearly it is not modern in the true sense as you've outlined above.

That's the nub really - "Modern Image" is a label applied by different groups of people to mean any one of 3 different things, two of those three are mutually exclusive to each other, the third is by now so vague as to be almost meaningless!

 

[Talltim]

I can'r see any more recent "dividing line" than the end of steam. The *entire* motive power fleet of British Railways changed in the space of ten years. Ptivatisation has seen a lot of new trains replacing older ones, but there is still a lot of BR built stock from the 70s and 80s on the network; even some Modernisation Plan locomotives survive in niche usages.

The motive power/stock is but a small part of the railway. Privatisation has been as big a change as the Grouping was

[TheQ]

If refering to a layout or Locomotive, I prefer  " modelled as from  19XX to 19XX"  actually I would like manufacturers to put that on all their rolling stock as the era system is very vague.

 With that I intend to retire to the "NEW INN" it's a couple of hundred years old.

The Q

 

 Though if you were to model Newport Pagnell, the name is first mentioned as Neuport in the Domesday book, so this sort of thing has only been going on a short while....

[LNER4479]

How about 'classic modern image' (if that's not an oxymoron!) and 'contemporary modern image'?

 

No? Ah well, worth a try. I shall now return to my 'Steam era*' modelling...

(*a phrase which covers nigh on 150 years of railway history and is therefore even less well defined!)

[coachmann]

A hobby is generally regarded as an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure, so I have an inbuilt aversion to thought-police attempting to regiment me. And so should everyone else... haha....!!!  

Edited November 20, 2013 by coachmann

[Tim H]

It's a sobering thought how many first-generation diesels have been preserved for far longer than they were in service; Even the class 50s have reached that point now.

[Chimer]

The thing surely is that "modern image" is a phrase which is entirely likely to be used in ordinary conversation unrelated to railways.  For me, in a model railways context it will make me think WCML blue electrics, because I was reading RM when they started using the phrase with that meaning.  But without that experience, I would expect it to mean today's railway - and its railway meaning is therefore ambiguous.  If the particular arty period had been labelled "New Art", the same objection would apply, but sticking in the French means "Art nouveau" has held its original specific meaning.  Perhaps if RM had used the label "image moderne" instead ........

 

For French scholars - I'm sure there should be an accent somewhere in "moderne", but don't know where, which, or how to type them anyway  .

[rodshaw]

The thing surely is that "modern image" is a phrase which is entirely likely to be used in ordinary conversation unrelated to railways.  For me, in a model railways context it will make me think WCML blue electrics, because I was reading RM when they started using the phrase with that meaning.  But without that experience, I would expect it to mean today's railway - and its railway meaning is therefore ambiguous.  If the particular arty period had been labelled "New Art", the same objection would apply, but sticking in the French means "Art nouveau" has held its original specific meaning.  Perhaps if RM had used the label "image moderne" instead ........

 

For French scholars - I'm sure there should be an accent somewhere in "moderne", but don't know where, which, or how to type them anyway  .

 

No, no accent required!

[Clive Mortimore]

A hobby is generally regarded as an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure, so I have an inbuilt aversion to thought-police attempting to regiment me. And so should everyone else... haha....!!!  

Exactly Larry, why should someone else re-label my models as "Modern Image" all because they are diesels?

 

This thread seems to be trying to define "Modern Image"; my e-mail to the editor of DEMU's Update which prompted this discussion here,  was about its use (or misuse) by many modellers to mean modelling diesel or electric motive power on a model railway irrespective of the period modelled. The aim was to find a way of convincing the great and not so great that it was a term that did not need to be used when describing a model railways that do not use steam as its primary motive power.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The plan is to drop "modern image". I prefer "contemporary" as in the last few years to present. Remembering of course that at one time BR blue was contemporary!

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Please, NO. Contemporary does not mean modern or recent. That is a sloppy usage that has crept in - not least due to incompetent and illiterate journalists. Contemporary means "at the same time as".

[Joseph_Pestell]

I really wonder what place DEMU has seeking a change of terminology for their sub-segment of our hobby when their members still proudly brandish "no kettles" mugs?

 

If you have no kettles, what do you put in the mug?

[newbryford]

Please, NO. Contemporary does not mean modern or recent. That is a sloppy usage that has crept in - not least due to incompetent and illiterate journalists. Contemporary means "at the same time as".

 

(Lifted from Google)

 

adjective

adjective: contemporary

1. 1.

   living or occurring at the same time.

   "the event was recorded by a contemporary historian"

   • dating from the same time.

     "this series of paintings is contemporary with other works in an early style"

     synonyms: contemporaneous, concurrent, coeval, synchronous, synchronic, of the time, of the day, simultaneous; More

     coexisting, coexistent;

     rarecoetaneous

     "contemporary writing says that the city's walls were formidable"
2. 2.

   belonging to or occurring in the present.

   "the tension and complexities of our contemporary society"

   synonyms: modern, present-day, present, current, present-time, immediate, extant; More

   up to date, up to the minute, fashionable, latest, recent, ultra-modern, newfangled, modish, voguish, in vogue;

   à la mode;

   informalbang up to date, with it

   "crime and violence in contemporary society"

   antonyms: old-fashioned, out of date

   • following modern ideas in style or design.

     "contemporary ceramics by leading potters"

 

 

 

noun

noun: contemporary; plural noun: contemporaries

1. 1.

   a person or thing living or existing at the same time as another.

   "he was a contemporary of Darwin"

   synonyms: peer, fellow; More

In amongst that lot (adjective 2) there is a synonym "bang up to date"....... I think that describes some of my modelling.

 

However, since originally starting this discussion, I have started to dislike the c-word as it has multiple uses, just like "modern image". From now on, I'm modelling the "recent" scene and will qualify it with 2007-present day and progress the 2007, as time marches on...........

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Ravenser]

(Lifted from Google)

 

adjective

adjective: contemporary

1. 1.

   living or occurring at the same time.

   "the event was recorded by a contemporary historian"

   • dating from the same time.

     "this series of paintings is contemporary with other works in an early style"

     synonyms: contemporaneous, concurrent, coeval, synchronous, synchronic, of the time, of the day, simultaneous; More

     coexisting, coexistent;

     rarecoetaneous

     "contemporary writing says that the city's walls were formidable"
2. 2.

   belonging to or occurring in the present.

   "the tension and complexities of our contemporary society"

   synonyms: modern, present-day, present, current, present-time, immediate, extant; More

   up to date, up to the minute, fashionable, latest, recent, ultra-modern, newfangled, modish, voguish, in vogue;

   à la mode;

   informalbang up to date, with it

   "crime and violence in contemporary society"

   antonyms: old-fashioned, out of date

   • following modern ideas in style or design.

     "contemporary ceramics by leading potters"

 

 

 

noun

noun: contemporary; plural noun: contemporaries

1. 1.

   a person or thing living or existing at the same time as another.

   "he was a contemporary of Darwin"

   synonyms: peer, fellow; More

In amongst that lot (adjective 2) there is a synonym "bang up to date"....... I think that describes some of my modelling.

 

However, since originally starting this discussion, I have started to dislike the c-word as it has multiple uses, just like "modern image". From now on, I'm modelling the "recent" scene and will qualify it with 2007-present day and progress the 2007, as time marches on...........

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

 

What's wrong with "post-privatisation"?