Cambrian and GWR 0 Gauge layout -Revised Plans

[Donw]

Thanks Mike drawings without dimensions can be useful as long as the proportions are correct and there are photos where you can estimate a key size. The Tweedie and Lascelles book revealed one copy in a search offered at a mere £90 so best put your copy in the safe Mike. 

The Great Western Infrstructure sounds interesting I assume that the dates apply to when the photos were taken so much of the content should be of older stuff.  Currently £16.50 I have seen copies of the Adrian Vaughan one from about £12.

 

Don

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Mike drawings without dimensions can be useful as long as the proportions are correct and there are photos where you can estimate a key size. The Tweedie and Lascelles book revealed one copy in a search offered at a mere £90 so best put your copy in the safe Mike. 

The Great Western Infrstructure sounds interesting I assume that the dates apply to when the photos were taken so much of the content should be of older stuff.  Currently £16.50 I have seen copies of the Adrian Vaughan one from about £12.

 

Don

If you've seen Vaughan's book for 12 quid go for it Don, the last one I saw was £25!

[richbrummitt]

I can't follow what type(s) of signal you are looking for a drawing of now, having seen reference to various types and posts. There was a good dimensioned drawing of a GWR ground signal in the BGS periodical once upon a time. It's essentially a lamp case with two (or more) 'boards' on - square and round. These were connected to the switch tie bar. There is a decent image of the early ground signal with a miniature arm in Stephen Williams Great Western Branch Line Modelling Part 1 (unfortunately also long out of print and expensive used). I've started making one for my own purposes and I think there is a partially dimensioned drawing in Vaughan, which is what I am was using. I noticed last time I was at Steam in Swindon that they have one of these. The arm has been replaced with a disc but otherwise you could take and measurement you would need because it is very accessible and not roped.

[The Stationmaster]

I can't follow what type(s) of signal you are looking for a drawing of now, having seen reference to various types and posts. There was a good dimensioned drawing of a GWR ground signal in the BGS periodical once upon a time. It's essentially a lamp case with two (or more) 'boards' on - square and round. These were connected to the switch tie bar. There is a decent image of the early ground signal with a miniature arm in Stephen Williams Great Western Branch Line Modelling Part 1 (unfortunately also long out of print and expensive used). I've started making one for my own purposes and I think there is a partially dimensioned drawing in Vaughan, which is what I am was using. I noticed last time I was at Steam in Swindon that they have one of these. The arm has been replaced with a disc but otherwise you could take and measurement you would need because it is very accessible and not roped.

The GWR ground signals at Dolgelly are all numbered as 'Independent' signals and therefore would not be of the rotating lamp case type.  They would have been the version with the miniature cast iron 'arm' as illustrated by a detailed drawing in Tweedie & Lascelles and in plate 63a in Vaughan's book.  The signal illustrated in plate 63b in Vaughan's book is not exactly as his words might leave to think as it is in fact exactly the same signal but with an enamelled half disc added on the front by bolting it to the original cast arm - an improvement introduced in 1911 in order to make the signals more visible.

[Donw]

AVs book duly ordered so when it arrives I will be able to see what you are both talking about.

Todays first task (assisted by it being to wet to be required on outside duties ) was to make up a removeeable base unit to allow the Ground signal and works to be removed for attention and to enable setting up to be done on the bench.

First issue using 9ft sleepers at 11ft track spacing would only allow 2ft or 14mm for the base as the servo is 12mm wide not really sufficient. I have decided a base 20mm wide to cover an 18mm hole should be a reasonable compromise beside a little extra space between tracks may be handy. THe usual excuse for wide spacing is ex Broad gauge not something that can be applied to Dolgelley. Cue here for Mike to advise that an extra foot or two was normal in stations.

I have made the said unit up photos to follow later.

I am now (well before stopping for a cup of tea plus apple pie and cream) making up the MSE 1910 type as a trial. Didn't you make a 2mm one Rich ( I think a new set of thinner fingers would be necessary certain without the bit of arthritis in my current ones).

My old friend Mike Lloyd does give some dimensions of the signals on the Tanat valley branch but these or Tyers not Duttons and there were no grounds signals shown. Still it is a useful guide as most would have similar dimensions.

 

Don

[The Stationmaster]

Hard luck Don - wider spacing only seems to have been a consequence of previous broad gauge track.

[richbrummitt]

I checked and the drawing is in Williams part 1, fig. 37.

[Donw]

Two pictures showing the parts for the Ground signal base and the parts assembled

 

 

 

the base will drop into a hole 55mm x 18mm

 

the next bits will be the Ground signal and the whole assembly

 

Don

[Donw]

As a break from fiddling with a ground signal we laid some cork down for the track. Not having any copydex (rather scarce in Minehead) and wanting to try something different to PVA. I had a a can of carpet adhesive spray. The first piece went down well. The second needed a slight reposition :nono:   the adhesive is stronger than the cork. So any gaps should be filled with odd bits and care needs to be taken with positioning. Otherwise it looks very promising.

 

Don

[Mikkel]

There is a decent image of the early ground signal with a miniature arm in Stephen Williams Great Western Branch Line Modelling Part 1 (unfortunately also long out of print and expensive used). I've started making one for my own purposes

 

Just in case it's of any use, there's an enlargeable colour photo showing the one at Bewdley (which is the one in Stephen Williams' photo) on Flickr here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/treflyn/16559627632/

 

Photos of the rear side have been harder to come by (although I could go to Bewdley of course!). At first I thought this was it, but I'm not quite sure: https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/5541077024

Edited June 4, 2015 by Mikkel

[The Stationmaster]

Just in case it's of any use, there's an enlargeable colour photo showing the one at Bewdley (which is the one in Stephen Williams' photo) on Flickr here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/treflyn/16559627632/

 

Photos of the rear side have been harder to come by (although I could go to Bewdley of course!). At first I thought this was it, but I'm not quite sure: https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/5541077024

I'm pretty sure that they're basically exactly the same type of signal.  The difference appears to be only the lamp casing - the Bath ones having what I assume is an earlier pattern - plus the Bath one is also set in some sort of timbered area (maybe a foot crossing?).  The Bath ones don't have back blinders either (not visible on the Bewdley one of course) but that seems a logical omission considering their position in relation to the signalbox although they might have been added as a later modification?

[Mikkel]

You're probably right Mike. I was confused by one end of the mini-semaphore arm which I thought was rounded. There is another better photo here (and others in the same series, but I'm getting off topic now and don't want to derail Don's thread).

[Donw]

You're probably right Mike. I was confused by one end of the mini-semaphore arm which I thought was rounded. There is another better photo here (and others in the same series, but I'm getting off topic now and don't want to derail Don's thread).

 

Dont worry too much about derailing the thread you never know when snippets of information come in useful.

 

I am slightly surprised that there are some similarities between the Cambrian ground signal at Aberystwyth and the GWR ones but from experience the first thing engineers do with a new project is to see if anyone else has done something similar. It can save a lot of effort. There is some reference to the Lamp rotating. I can see the arm needs to rotate but why the lamp unless it is to bring a different coloured lens into play.

Don

[ChrisN]

Dont worry too much about derailing the thread you never know when snippets of information come in useful.

 

I am slightly surprised that there are some similarities between the Cambrian ground signal at Aberystwyth and the GWR ones but from experience the first thing engineers do with a new project is to see if anyone else has done something similar. It can save a lot of effort. There is some reference to the Lamp rotating. I can see the arm needs to rotate but why the lamp unless it is to bring a different coloured lens into play.

Don

 

The photo from Christiansen and Miller shows the lamp with two lenses so I assume that it did rotate.  There also appears to be a pulley in front of it but I cannot see any workings for an arm.  They would not just have had the lamps would they?

[Donw]

The photo from Christiansen and Miller shows the lamp with two lenses so I assume that it did rotate.  There also appears to be a pulley in front of it but I cannot see any workings for an arm.  They would not just have had the lamps would they?

 

I am not sure Chris reading the bit in Vaughans book about Ground signals mentions the early GWR ones being a rotating lamp linked to the turnout mechanism. It seems to me having both the lamp rotating and an arm rotating in a different plane would make quite a complex mechanism. There is definitely a distinction between independent ground signals which were often slotted so they could only be pulled if the turnout had been thrown, and the earlier ones which had been operated by throwing the turnout. With the later the is an obvious issue, with a GS at either end of a crossover throwing the crossover both signals would be off.

 

Don

[ChrisN]

I am not sure Chris reading the bit in Vaughans book about Ground signals mentions the early GWR ones being a rotating lamp linked to the turnout mechanism. It seems to me having both the lamp rotating and an arm rotating in a different plane would make quite a complex mechanism. There is definitely a distinction between independent ground signals which were often slotted so they could only be pulled if the turnout had been thrown, and the earlier ones which had been operated by throwing the turnout. With the later the is an obvious issue, with a GS at either end of a crossover throwing the crossover both signals would be off.

 

Don

 

 

Don,

It would explain the picture if the lamp was connected to the turnout.  The wire from the pulley appears to go towards the turnout but then seems to disappear. I will look in 'A New History' to see if it can shed any light on it.

[ChrisN]

Don,

Page 37 of 'A New History' has a photo of Machynlleth in 1919 and there appears to be a ground signal in the foreground, with no evidence of an arm.  I assume it is a ground signal but I might be wrong.

[The Stationmaster]

Dont worry too much about derailing the thread you never know when snippets of information come in useful.

 

I am slightly surprised that there are some similarities between the Cambrian ground signal at Aberystwyth and the GWR ones but from experience the first thing engineers do with a new project is to see if anyone else has done something similar. It can save a lot of effort. There is some reference to the Lamp rotating. I can see the arm needs to rotate but why the lamp unless it is to bring a different coloured lens into play.

Don

 

I am not sure Chris reading the bit in Vaughans book about Ground signals mentions the early GWR ones being a rotating lamp linked to the turnout mechanism. It seems to me having both the lamp rotating and an arm rotating in a different plane would make quite a complex mechanism. There is definitely a distinction between independent ground signals which were often slotted so they could only be pulled if the turnout had been thrown, and the earlier ones which had been operated by throwing the turnout. With the later the is an obvious issue, with a GS at either end of a crossover throwing the crossover both signals would be off.

 

Don

No need to confuse the two as far as you're concerned at Dolgelley Don.  The GWR ground signals there are clearly numbered as the independent type and would therefore be of the sort shown in Fig 63a.  On these the lamp case did not rotate. the arm went down - simple as that.

 

The non-independent sort had a rotating lamp case which was driven off the end of the front stretcher bar and that was it - nothing else moved, the lampcase simply rotated as the points were changed but it is something over 50 years since I last saw one on the 'everyday' railway (there is one at Didcot GWS but it is - without checking my pics - one of the earlier pattern with a larger lampcase).

 

I have very few books with anything Cambrian in them although one photo suggests that they did use some sort of rotating ground signal (not very much like a GWR one) although its position also suggests it might not have been an independent signal.

[Donw]

Thanks for the clarification on the GWR ones Mike. I mentioned the early dependant ones as Chris is looking at Cambrian pictures. The one shown at Aberystwyth is an independent one but some pictures may show the turnout operated ones.

Chris has found a photo of one that may be of that type. Although without being sure of the mechanism used by the Cambrian/Duttons it is hard to be sure. But there appears to be no sign of an arm so is probably one of the rotating type. My diagrams which relate to the revised layout dating from 1894 suggest independant ones for both the GWR and Cambrian where as Chris modelling 1895 is more likely to find one of the non independent rotating ones still in use. I am assuming that unless the layout was revised a ground signal would not be replaced.

 

Don

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for the clarification on the GWR ones Mike. I mentioned the early dependant ones as Chris is looking at Cambrian pictures. The one shown at Aberystwyth is an independent one but some pictures may show the turnout operated ones.

Chris has found a photo of one that may be of that type. Although without being sure of the mechanism used by the Cambrian/Duttons it is hard to be sure. But there appears to be no sign of an arm so is probably one of the rotating type. My diagrams which relate to the revised layout dating from 1894 suggest independant ones for both the GWR and Cambrian where as Chris modelling 1895 is more likely to find one of the non independent rotating ones still in use. I am assuming that unless the layout was revised a ground signal would not be replaced.

 

Don

I would think that the independent ones became more common as lever frames were renewed - there is for instance definite evidence that some GWR 'wayside' stations on secondary lines were fairly comprehensively equipped with them by the 1890s.

[Donw]

Thanks Mike  I had assumed that the lever frame would only be renewed if the was a change to the signalling layout. Mind you the regulations changed early 1890s so that may have precipitated renewal of many frames.

 

Don

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Mike  I had assumed that the lever frame would only be renewed if the was a change to the signalling layout. Mind you the regulations changed early 1890s so that may have precipitated renewal of many frames.

 

Don

The big change was the 1889 Regulation of Railways act which forced change on many companies.

[Mikkel]

GWR again I'm afraid, but I think that this is a photo of the GWR rotating lamp case type (referred to by Stephen Williams as "point discs"): http://album.atomic-systems.com/showPic.php/22426/GWR_RotatingGroundSignal.jpg

 

Correct me if I'm wrong Mike!

 

Edit: The pic was posted by user "saddletank" on another forum way back in 2002. It's not embedded on any site, hence the deep link).

Edited June 7, 2015 by Mikkel

[The Stationmaster]

GWR again I'm afraid, but I think that this is a photo of the GWR rotating lamp case type (referred to by Stephen Williams as "point discs"): http://album.atomic-systems.com/showPic.php/22426/GWR_RotatingGroundSignal.jpg

 

Correct me if I'm wrong Mike!

 

Edit: The pic was posted by user "saddletank" on another forum way back in 2002. It's not embedded on any site, hence the deep link).

That looks very much like a GWR rotating lamp case non-independent ground signal - complete with the operating rod coming in (from the right) off the point stretcher bar.  Looks like a relatively late style of lamp case as well and judging by the track in the background it was working well in a lesser part of the network as there is a distinctly 'light railway' look to it.

 

I suspect the last survivors - as at our branch junction - were most likely on engine release crossovers although it is possible that an odd one might have survived on a siding exit.

[Donw]

Some more pictures of the Ground signal

 

 

First the base with the servo fitted

 

 

Second the MSE ground signal part assembled.I have added a small peg onto the disc to attach the operating arm but I think it will need replacing with a loop (a U shaped bit soldered on) to hold the operating link on. I also need to sort out a suitable LED and drill the lamp case out. Interesting point how visible would the lamp be in daylight?

 

Don

 

Well actually the other way round as it will not now let me position the photos something to do with Windows 8?