2014 Hornby Announcements

[Robin Brasher]

Following Luke Stevens' post 670 comparing Hornby's prices in 1973 to the present prices taking inflation into account I have been having a look at what Hornby had to offer in 1973. It was dire. For instance you could buy BR Mk1 coaches in red and yellow to represent carmine and cream or BR Mk1 coaches in Southern or LMS liveries. The BR Mk1 coach in Great Western livery was out of production. Every time I bought a Mk1 coach I had to repaint it, which was easy as the coaches were easy to dismantle and I bought flush glazing. It shows what can happen if one company has a monopoly although I think Lima came in at about that time. The situation was so bad that I began to model in N gauge as Graham Farish were producing excellent BR Mk1 coaches in authentic liveries. The short clerestory coaches were good models but were produced in a poor representation of LNER teak at the time and the excellent GWR clerestories were out of production in 1973.

 

If you compare the range of locomotives that Hornby produced in 1973 with what they are offering now you will see how far Hornby have come. I am not impressed with most of their goods wagons but there is not much Hornby can do about it now because Bachmann have captured that market.

[hornbyandbf3fan]

Looking at the way prices are going, I'll be buying more smaller locos, such as the J15 and K1. I'm fine with that as long as the loco is to a good standard (although my mum might have a different opinion.  )

[br-nse-fan]

I am not impressed with most of their goods wagons but there is not much Hornby can do about it now because Bachmann have captured that market.

 

I would agree with that... most of their wagons are still based on models that are 30+ years old.  Their newer offerings (a lot of engineering types) are nothing short of fantastic (IMHO) and have purchased many of them over the years.

 

One (easy?) way Hornby could get back into the game would be to retool the chassis.  The bodies are not terrible, but it's those ugly large couplers that so many of their 'modern' stock still comes with.  I'm sure someone will correct me, but many of their models reuse the same chassis, so the investment would be minimal.  Doing something like that would be at least a half way fix, and allow the older chassis to be moved into the Railroad range, with the newer tooled ones being used in the main range.  NEM coupler pockets, finer tooling... etc...  this would also allow a launching pad for upgrading the tops of the wagons a few at a time.

 

 

Just my thought...

[iL Dottore]

I would agree with that... most of their wagons are still based on models that are 30+ years old.... One (easy?) way Hornby could get back into the game would be to retool the chassis. The bodies are not terrible...

Well, perhaps not terrible for a given value of terrible (to quote Terry Pratchett), but they are pretty crummy.

 

I really wonder why Hornby has not made a definitive 3-plank/5-plank/7-plank RCH wagon. The pre-nationalisation livery choices are incredibly numerous (collieries, coal merchants, coal factors, municipal power stations, etc., etc.). Agreed, the BR era would not give Hornby much in the way of liveries, but would be a great opportunity for Hornby to use their finishing skills to give us battered ex-private owner wagons (if they can produce an amazing LNER teak, they can certainly do a grotted up 5-plank wagon).

 

But, alas, I think that perhaps RCH wagons aren't sexy enough for the marketing guys...

[petethemole]

Hornby have been producing pre-nationalisation and some pre-grouping private owner liveries, based on known originals and usually very nicely printed, for some years. Unfortunately the vast majority have been on chassis varying from inappropriate to downright awful. The Airfix clone chassis, 10ft WB and 17ft 6in long, is used on most of their 7 plank minerals and their (also ex Airfix) 5 plank open, based on LMS diagrams dating from 1934-=46 is also issued with much earlier private trader liveries. At least that underframe is passable (if you're not too fussy) for 17ft 6in railway company stock. Other PO minerals are on the bizarre wood underframe of 10ft WB with LMS style 8 shoe clasp brakes and an integral wagon floor, which sits under the floor of the wagon body, giving two floors! Other underframes still appearing in new releases are the ancient ex-Triang job with steel solebars, 9ft 6in WB, oversized axleguards and thick tiebars, and the two-part chassis that I think was originally designed for tank wagons. I won't cover Railroad wagons as well. The short timber underframe that appears under 3, 4 and 6 plank wagons is passable IMHO apart from the large couplings. This situation must affect sales as Bachmann have cornered the bread and butter trade in 7/8 plank PO minerals from buyers after accuracy rather than collectors of different liveries.

 

I would suggest (and this is my personal opinion, others may share it) that Hornby introduce:

 

(1) a 9ft WB wood underframe, either RCH 1908 in direct competition with Bachmann, or 1923, for minerals and other wagons;

 

(2) a  3 plank wagon of a design earlier than the Bachmann type, RCH or company, but longer than the 'short' version;

 

(3) a 5 plank company wagon different to the Airfix clone or the current Bachmann offering, the obvious choice being LMS diagram 1666, the most common type;

 

(4) a RCH 5 plank mineral to suit smaller coal merchants and other traders.

 

(5) a grouping period company goods van not currently available, such as an accurate LMS diagram.

 

A carefully selected range would sell and continue to sell, both with new PO liveries each year and by varying the details of company and BR liveries as Bachmann are doing.

 

Any other suggestions for a new wagon range? I think the key is types that would lead to repeat sales (in volume).

 

Will anybody at Hornby notice? or care?

 

Pete

[Dunsignalling]

Hornby have been producing pre-nationalisation and some pre-grouping private owner liveries, based on known originals and usually very nicely printed, for some years. Unfortunately the vast majority have been on chassis varying from inappropriate to downright awful. The Airfix clone chassis, 10ft WB and 17ft 6in long, is used on most of their 7 plank minerals and their (also ex Airfix) 5 plank open, based on LMS diagrams dating from 1934-=46 is also issued with much earlier private trader liveries. At least that underframe is passable (if you're not too fussy) for 17ft 6in railway company stock. Other PO minerals are on the bizarre wood underframe of 10ft WB with LMS style 8 shoe clasp brakes and an integral wagon floor, which sits under the floor of the wagon body, giving two floors! Other underframes still appearing in new releases are the ancient ex-Triang job with steel solebars, 9ft 6in WB, oversized axleguards and thick tiebars, and the two-part chassis that I think was originally designed for tank wagons. I won't cover Railroad wagons as well. The short timber underframe that appears under 3, 4 and 6 plank wagons is passable IMHO apart from the large couplings. This situation must affect sales as Bachmann have cornered the bread and butter trade in 7/8 plank PO minerals from buyers after accuracy rather than collectors of different liveries.

 

I would suggest (and this is my personal opinion, others may share it) that Hornby introduce:

 

(1) a 9ft WB wood underframe, either RCH 1908 in direct competition with Bachmann, or 1923, for minerals and other wagons;

 

(2) a  3 plank wagon of a design earlier than the Bachmann type, RCH or company, but longer than the 'short' version;

 

(3) a 5 plank company wagon different to the Airfix clone or the current Bachmann offering, the obvious choice being LMS diagram 1666, the most common type;

 

(4) a RCH 5 plank mineral to suit smaller coal merchants and other traders.

 

(5) a grouping period company goods van not currently available, such as an accurate LMS diagram.

 

A carefully selected range would sell and continue to sell, both with new PO liveries each year and by varying the details of company and BR liveries as Bachmann are doing.

 

Any other suggestions for a new wagon range? I think the key is types that would lead to repeat sales (in volume).

 

Will anybody at Hornby notice? or care?

 

Pete

In a word "no". Hornby very rarely produce wagon models comparable with the stuff that comes in blue boxes.

 

They won't change anything while they continue to get away with selling the current stuff.

 

This is one area where the saying "Hornby for collectors, Bachmann for modellers" really is true.

 

John

[Osimabu]

The latest volume of Keith Turton's Private Owner Wagon books (A Twelfth Collection) has some really interesting wagon liveries in it.

 

I've noticed that Bachmann usually have a few of his featured wagons in their range within a couple of years of publication, and I'm sure Hornby take notice too.

[Dunsignalling]

Following Luke Stevens' post 670 comparing Hornby's prices in 1973 to the present prices taking inflation into account I have been having a look at what Hornby had to offer in 1973. It was dire. For instance you could buy BR Mk1 coaches in red and yellow to represent carmine and cream or BR Mk1 coaches in Southern or LMS liveries. The BR Mk1 coach in Great Western livery was out of production. Every time I bought a Mk1 coach I had to repaint it, which was easy as the coaches were easy to dismantle and I bought flush glazing. It shows what can happen if one company has a monopoly although I think Lima came in at about that time. The situation was so bad that I began to model in N gauge as Graham Farish were producing excellent BR Mk1 coaches in authentic liveries. The short clerestory coaches were good models but were produced in a poor representation of LNER teak at the time and the excellent GWR clerestories were out of production in 1973.

 

If you compare the range of locomotives that Hornby produced in 1973 with what they are offering now you will see how far Hornby have come. I am not impressed with most of their goods wagons but there is not much Hornby can do about it now because Bachmann have captured that market.

Don't forget the "other" Mark 1s fitted with panelled sides and finished in Caledonian, LMS, GWR and SR liveries plus mottled brown plain ones purporting to be LNER Thompson stock. The short clerestories were produced in MR red, too. Hornby have come an awful long way since then and have deservedly hoovered up quite a bit of my disposable income in recent years!

 

As for steam era wagons, Hornby have never made any serious effort to compete with Bachmann. The excellent BR black 'Shark' was only a by-product of their range of modern image engineering stock and the best of the rest are rehashed from Airfix models dating back 30-odd years. 

 

They are a lot better when it comes to NPCCS; the GWR Horsebox, SR Vans B and BY, Gresley and Stanier BGs and the new LMS CCT are very good indeed.

 

John

[t-b-g]

I am sure that Hornby or anybody else could produce a model to 1973 standard for very much less than the prices being asked for modern models.

 

Talk about design clever!

 

One part plastic mouldings with no additional details.

 

Daylight under the boiler, not considered necessary, saves design work hiding a motor (forget 5 pole, we will fit an XO4 and don't worry if it fills the cab).

 

Cab glazing, forget it.

 

Valve gear, well, some parts vaguely representing real valve gear will suffice.

 

Wheelbase/wheels/chassis, lets use whichever existing ones are near enough.

 

Brake gear/sandpipes/lamp irons...... who needs 'em.

 

But we did get hours of fun upgrading a RTR model to be as good as a Ks/Wills kit!

 

Maybe I am being a bit harsh on 1973 models and maybe things had started to look up a little bit by then but my memory of modelling at that time was of trying to scratchbuld the missing bits of valve gear on a "Brit" and carving plastic handrails off just about everything! 

 

Comparing prices of modern products with stuff from 40 years ago and expecting the cost of such models to remain similar apart from inflation is just not realistic.

 

We have come a long way yet some folk still seem to think that 2014 models should be produced at the equivalent of 1973 prices.

 

Tony

[Legend]

It's probably down to a number of things....

 

Having had a number of enjoyable conversations with Simon Kohler over the years, I have learnt that amongst the driving factors of price are:

 

• complexity of the mould (Simon described the mould for one, apparently simple, model as being a multipiece mould - not a simple two-parter. ergo a cost to create and use)
• complexity of assembly: added detail costs to be added (hence the move to "design clever", theoretically a great approach, but one that does require thinking through....)
• complexity of finish (I read somewhere that the LNER teak finish requires 150 different, separate, tampo printing steps... which is why the teak coaches cost more).

I don't think that it is a fair comparison putting the LMS 3F up against the (yet to be released) J15 as we must not also forget that Bachmann and Hornby are in different situations when it comes to their suppliers and supply chain. A fairer (and more relevant) comparison would be that of Hornby's BR Mk 1 at £19.95 with their BR Mk 1 with lights at £36.50 or with the camping coach at £24.49 (although the latter does have some skaledale steps thrown in).

 

I don't think that price will have a significant impact on sales. Yes, there will be a few who won't buy one because of "price" (or won't save up for one), but unless the model is an absolute stinker, I think the J15 will sell quite nicely. And quite frankly, £102 for a top quality model (unless they make some more "design clever" botches with its' construction), is a reasonable price.

 

One thing I believe we should take advantage off, is the long lead time for the these models to hit the shops. This would certainly allow us to budget for our 2014 Hornby purchases and set aside our pennies.

And the last but not least pricing factor is: how. Much Simon Kohler thinks he can get for the model. You actually refer to it in saying you dont think that price will have a significant impact on sales. Truth is if you need a J15 you will buy one within a price range. Im always amazed that people link costs of production with sales price. I'll bet we would be surprised how low the cost really is to Hornby ( what they charge to the retailers is of course completely different as we see on another thread)

[darren01]

Hi 

May I draw your attention to the photo's of the new A4's for the great gathering, Now these are meant to be top of the range models and top of the range prices!.

Union of south Africa looks awful.

Darren

[EddieB]

 Were they ever blue in reality?

 

Ed

 

 

The standard livery would have been black, lined out in red,until the universal application of "shop grey" in the war years. I don't know whether any Y14s received blue livery.

[Fenway Park]

Dave Slater (Dean Sidings) commented that three of his proposed products for 2014 have been overtaken by Hornby's announcements. He has others to replace them though. 

[robmcg]

Hi 

May I draw your attention to the photo's of the new A4's for the great gathering, Now these are meant to be top of the range models and top of the range prices!.

Union of south Africa looks awful.

Darren

 

Where are good photos of all six models?

 

do you mean

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-The-Great-Gathering-Locos-R3196-R3197-R3198-R3199-R3200-R3201-Ltd-Edition-/331090497587?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item4d16881033

 

 

As far as I can tell from the recent pics the A4 Great Gathering thread, there is a (slight?) error in the height of the front number plate and lamp bracket, and slightly wonky transfer-application, but I may be too forgiving, it does not bother me over much.  Unfortunate perhaps and possibly because they are being assembled in a different factory from previous A4 production runs, as pointed out but others,  but they still look to me to be a very desirable collection.

[robmcg]

Unfortunately, that's not the way things work, people buy product X if they want product X and will pay what is demanded for product X, regardless of whether or not the similar but different product Y costs less: just look at Samsung's smart phone vs Apple's iPhone (a good analogy, I think, as many iPhone components come from Samsung). Furthermore, supply chains aren't the only factor, the difference in complexity of moulds, assembly and finish (as well as how much QA/QC is done) are probably even more relevant than supply in determining price. Realistically, until we see the finished J15 model and do a side-by-side comparison, we really can't say that the Bachmann LMS 3F is better priced than the Hornby J15

 

With much discussion about prices, value and quality in this and similar threads, I greatly enjoy the analogy with Samsung and Apple, except that if I extent it to, say, blue box vs red box for 00 RTR locomotives (my main interest), I too would be stalled in a comparison of the forthcoming Hornby J15 with a Bachmann 3F, because one is not yet in production. And Quality Control...  hmmm

 

However, being a troublemaker I could compare red and blue for top end 00 RTR  Pacific steam engines, (or 4MT 4-6-0s ... in the latter case the well-worn comparison of Riddles Standard engines, both very good) .. in the former case I would choose in the red corner the Britannia/Clan , and in the blue corner the Peppercorn A2. Not strictly comparable perhaps, but without careful checking of prices I think the box-shifters had them about the same. The Brit was designed and made in the mid-late 2000s., the A2 a year or two later, when Hornby made the Clan.

 

Could compare the Bachmann A1 with the Hornby Merchant Navy too, but these models are marginally less-than-modern in design. Curiously they both had issues when new, weak motors (Bachmann) poor chassis adhesion (Hornby).

 

I have to say it, but dollar for dollar when it comes to the Britannia/Clan and A2 comparison, there is not much wrong with any except the Bachmann still had many models sold with drooping cabs, as inherited from the A1, and the Hornby Britannia maybe was a bit fragile...  but it wins hands down, most detail factory fitted, a bag of coal supplied, and the paint and fine-detail mouldings on the Hornby model is better.

 

Yet we hear a lot of complaints about the errors, faults and prices of Hornby. Scarcity I can understand, fragility, certainly, but to my mind, value is excellent. I mentioned here and in other threads how I bought a UK-weathered Britannia from a box-shifter, second hand DCC fitted, retail guarantee, and all up it was £132 delivered to New Zealand by tracked airmail.  Has anyone checked the typical retail price of a UK-weathered and detailed Bachmann A2?  A1s are £190 from TMC  would be about £170 delivered here, A2s would be the same,  and from what I read in other threads Bachmann have quality control issues too.

 

Call me a standard-bearer for Hornby (bad pun, ouch) but can you imagine building this from a kit...? Another contributor said something about comparing production cost with retail price which I didn't quite get, but even if this model in 20010 arrived in Margate for £40 and was wholesaled at £60, it would now in 2013 cost £70 (guessing) to build in China or India, and wholesale at £100, and I am able to buy it for £132 delivered on the other side of the world!  With money-back guarantee and aftermarket weathering and detailing. Not a lot of room in there for margins.

 

Where, I ask is the person who will say, "too expensive", "Hornby rip us off", "Bachmann do it better", ....?

 

edit; disclaimer, the photo is edited, the nameplate shadows are false, and many small details are re-touched.

 

[Ozexpatriate]

When most of us were growing up Everyone had a rtr model railway/trainset,

but ask yourself why that was.......it was affordable by the masses.

Aaaah but a couple of days ago I heard a snippet of the Jeremy Kyle show (Yeh I know!) where a "guest" was wanting a lie detector on a theft of an ipad2 for a 6 year old costing £370, I thought they were mad but a discussion at work revealed a higher spend than that on kids !

But that was the toy of that age, now it is video game consoles and iPads. Affordability isn't the issue, interest is.

 

Train sets are still affordable. Hornby's GWR Passenger Freight is £80. There's a bunch around £150 that include big passenger steam locomotives.

 

In contrast, Sony PS4 and Microsoft XBox One sell in the US for $500 and above (if you can get one) and that's not even counting the software. In contrast, Walther's offers dozens of trainsets in the $100 - $150 range. It's still affordable - it's just not as popular any more.

[Ozexpatriate]

Hornby have been producing pre-nationalisation and some pre-grouping private owner liveries, based on known originals and usually very nicely printed, for some years. Unfortunately the vast majority have been on chassis varying from inappropriate to downright awful.

I have to admit that I'm not all that discriminating about wagon chassis though I will say that in general I prefer Bachmann's wagons. Other than visually obviously crude details it is not an area where I have developed any real knowledge.

 

Will anybody at Hornby notice? or care?

Would enough consumers notice?

[robmcg]

I think there is a thriving collector's market for Hornby wagons where authentic detailing is less important than things like area, subject, name, type, and so on,  as in stamp collecting.  But I'm only guessing.  Perhaps it doesn't cost much to reprogram a painting tool but lots to set up a different wagon-shape?

[iL Dottore]

And the last but not least pricing factor is: how Much Simon Kohler thinks he can get for the model....

Indeed, and something I overlooked trying to be rational about the source(s) of the price differential (but is it SK who sets prices? Or others?). But 'twas ever so?

 

Unfortunately, I think that the shorter production runs actually support a higher RRP. With a 5000 model run, even of a much wished for prototype, modellers would have the option of buying when the model first came out or waiting until the froth subsides. Thus the manufacturer would need to price the model in such a a way that the entire production run will eventually be sold. Whereas with a small production run of 500 (or even 1000), the manufacturer can price the model pretty much as they want, confident that ALL 500 will sell out. Of course, this assumes the model is priced within a fairly reasonable price band (I don't think that anyone would pay £2000 for a J15), it also assumes the model isn't a "stinker".

 

To be a wee bit contentious, I think the modelling community should rethink what to moan about. Rather than fixate on price per se, push for a clearer price structure, so that a modeller knows that if a model loco costs price range X, it's going to be pretty basic; if it costs price range Y, it'll be average and if it costs price range Z, then it will be a state-of-the-art model with bells, whistles and knobs on.

 

As I posted before, the frustrating thing about Hornby's pricing policy and the intermingling of the standard and RailRoad ranges, is that one doesn't really know if £XXX will get you a real gem of a model or just a very nice train set item.

[Flymo748]

The standard livery would have been black, lined out in red,until the universal application of "shop grey" in the war years. I don't know whether any Y14s received blue livery.

 

Copied (with full acknowledgement and appreciation of the research) from the GERS Journal number 36:

 

"Liveries.

 

The first Y14s were finished in the standard blue livery with small lettering GER on the tender.  From 1885 Holden introduced larger tender lettering, but from around 1890 all goods engines were painted black with lining and lettering as before.  By 1899 all Y14s would have been in black, with the exception of the new passenger fitted engines 640-9 which received full passenger livery, as did the subsequent engines which were all dual fitted.".

 

Which is why I'm modelling No. 643, in lined blue, in 1911 condition.  This is it, just waiting for the tender to finish being sprayed before I commence the lining:

 

 

 

The next Y14 that I build will be in goods livery black, with the appropriate changes to the equipment level (Westinghouse brakes, etc).  I haven't yet chosen the specific prototype to model, as that will depend in part on the photographs available for reference.  As is often said, "model what you see, not what you think you see".

 

HTH

Flymo

[ThaneofFife]

well as the new d&e releases come along i look forward to reading the various views on them here.

[Dunsignalling]

Hi 

May I draw your attention to the photo's of the new A4's for the great gathering, Now these are meant to be top of the range models and top of the range prices!.

Union of south Africa looks awful.

Darren

Does it matter? Most of them will never come out of their boxes.......

[brushman47544]

Been sharing a butty or two with Mystic Megangogogoch and at last I see the light. It's like the sky is new and she's there shining in the starlight. What? You might well ask.....

 

Hornby has announced a GER 'Claud' and a GER J15 and so using some of the tooling (Tender), I suddenly see the NRM commisioning a GER E4 2-4-0 from Hornby. So there we have it....NEW FOR 2015, A GER E4 in LNER black and BR black. Inspiration!!      

 

Careful now, one Hornby 2015 prediction thread has already been locked...

[PaulRhB]

Coachman makes a good point about choice and comparing prices is always dodgy over a year when known prices are compared to a guide price. Also there are reports from two retailers that Bachmann will be raising prices in spring. Wait and see what actually happens at financial risk or pre order, one thing is certain a handbuilt model to the same finish would cost many times more. If you want one there's the choice, rtr, professional build or DIY kit no amount of talking will drop the price

[Peter Bedding]

Copied (with full acknowledgement and appreciation of the research) from the GERS Journal number 36:

 

"Liveries.

 

The first Y14s were finished in the standard blue livery with small lettering GER on the tender.  From 1885 Holden introduced larger tender lettering, but from around 1890 all goods engines were painted black with lining and lettering as before.  By 1899 all Y14s would have been in black, with the exception of the new passenger fitted engines 640-9 which received full passenger livery, as did the subsequent engines which were all dual fitted.".

 

Which is why I'm modelling No. 643, in lined blue, in 1911 condition.  This is it, just waiting for the tender to finish being sprayed before I commence the lining:

 

DSC_4772.JPG

 

DSC_4775.JPG

 

The next Y14 that I build will be in goods livery black, with the appropriate changes to the equipment level (Westinghouse brakes, etc).  I haven't yet chosen the specific prototype to model, as that will depend in part on the photographs available for reference.  As is often said, "model what you see, not what you think you see".

 

HTH

Flymo

 

A delightful looking model of a popular prototype. The GER was very photogenic from the metropolis to rural idyll.