2014 Hornby Announcements

[Baby Deltic]

Hornby will have their work cut out for them if they are going to supersede the Crownline D16/3:

 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

A couple of points about electric locos.

 

To model them effectively you need the whole infrastructure. 3rd rail is easy, but until an effective system of overhead line equipment is produced (at a reasonable price) then overhead electrics are always going to be for the minority.

 

Apart from a few examples, there are/were very few overhead-wired loco-worked branch lines. Thus for the majority of modellers, they'd need to create (and have the space for) a mainline layout if they want to incorporate electric locos.

 

So the market for electric locos is going to be more of a niche and that much smaller to start off with, than for steam or diesel locos.

[JBM37404]

A couple of points about electric locos.

 

To model them effectively you need the whole infrastructure. 3rd rail is easy, but until an effective system of overhead line equipment is produced (at a reasonable price) then overhead electrics are always going to be for the minority.

 

Apart from a few examples, there are/were very few overhead-wired loco-worked branch lines. Thus for the majority of modellers, they'd need to create (and have the space for) a mainline layout if they want to incorporate electric locos.

 

So the market for electric locos is going to be more of a niche and that much smaller to start off with, than for steam or diesel locos.

There has to be a trade off though, not everyone is going to install scale OHLE equipment even if you can buy it easily. There is also the collector brigade and those who will run them without wires or simply stick the Dapol masts up. The diesel locos now are pretty much fully covered by decent models with even as not yet delivered types soon to be commisioned. (Class 68 by Dapol)

 

In an odd way it feels like the manufacturers are ignoring electrification like our government did for an age until being forced into it. The crys for the ACs will keep coming and every niche steam or diesel model that comes out requiring brand new tooling will make those of us who desire a decent 90 or 87 scratch our heads despite being told on here that nobody wants to buy them. Eye is now on Bachmann and Hornby for 2015 the ball is in your court.

 

I will refrain from commenting further now here as I appreciate its wandering a bit OT as Hornby have produced an overall positive line up for the model railway enthusiast.

[frobisher]

CKD (and unpainted RTR) can work where the economics of a model are such that all the initial development costs have already been covered, so it's possible to offer the CKD or unpainted form at a significant cost benefit over a finished model. Dapol does that with the ex-Airfix Stanier coaches, for example, as well as their unpainted standard van body. So Hornby probably could, if they wanted, offer it for some of their older models. But it's not going to happen for recent ones.

I suspect the reason it works for Dapol is that the manufacturing and finishing is occurring in the UK so the premium for assembly is relatively quite high. Dapol retained the capability to do so whereas as I understand it the former manufacturing space in Margate has all been repurposed.

[7013]

TBH good as the Crownline kit is, it looks just that , a kit and a bit crude, Hornby at their best will easily make a better example

[GWRLMSLNER]

 

Price's,  I see no one has said anything about this yet?.

 

 just had a look at the new West County loco a little bit shocked at the RRP from Hornby ;RRP £157.50, Come on this model must have paid for it self ten times over, so why the silly price?.

And a RRP £162.25 RRP on a 31!, god this is getting to the stage where i may stop buying Hornby at these prices.

 

The other thing to look at is these prices they have given here are this years prices, so how much will they be when they come out in 2015?.

Darren

 

I am also surprised at the prices. This will impact on sales. For example a high quality 0-6-0 (the LMS 3F) from Bachmann is £71.23 at Hattons et al. They are asking for £101.90 as an advanced order price on the Hornby J15. How can a £30+ price difference be justified when both are new models? 

[Ian J.]

For the record, when I say 'RTA' (Ready to Assemble) I don't mean like a kit, but more like a finished model without the detail fitted. RTHDF (Ready to Have Detail Fitted) doesn't trip off the tongue so well though...

[Graham_Muz]

As per my latest blog post here I have been in contact with Simon Kohler about the numbers and tender types and he has promised to review the information and correct their plans where necessary accordingly.

 

I have updated the update of my update blog post to confirm that,  following further discussion with Simon Kohler, with respect to the Drummond 700 class the running numbers proposed by Hornby have been amended to E695, 30315 (Late crest) and 30693 (early crest) and that they will be producing tooling for both tender wheelbase types. The first three releases will be correctly paired to 14ft wheelbase tenders.

 

Edit: to correct transposed late and early crest numbers

[Andy Y]

I have updated the update of my update blog post to confirm that,  following further discussion with Simon Kohler, with respect to the Drummond 700 class the running numbers proposed by Hornby have been amended to E695, 30315 (early crest) and 30693 (late crest) and that they will be producing tooling for both tender wheelbase types. The first three releases will be correctly paired to 14ft wheelbase tenders.

 

Thanks for that - I've now added that revision to the OP.

[iL Dottore]

I am also surprised at the prices. This will impact on sales. For example a high quality 0-6-0 (the LMS 3F) from Bachmann is £71.23 at Hattons et al. They are asking for £101.90 as an advanced order price on the Hornby J15. How can a £30+ price difference be justified when both are new models? 

Id mackerel in my recipe with a thin parsley sauce and topped with sliced potatoes lightly covered in cracked black peppercorns.

It's probably down to a number of things....

 

Having had a number of enjoyable conversations with Simon Kohler over the years, I have learnt that amongst the driving factors of price are:

• complexity of the mould (Simon described the mould for one, apparently simple, model as being a multipiece mould - not a simple two-parter. ergo a cost to create and use)
• complexity of assembly: added detail costs to be added (hence the move to "design clever", theoretically a great approach, but one that does require thinking through....)
• complexity of finish (I read somewhere that the LNER teak finish requires 150 different, separate, tampo printing steps... which is why the teak coaches cost more).

I don't think that it is a fair comparison putting the LMS 3F up against the (yet to be released) J15 as we must not also forget that Bachmann and Hornby are in different situations when it comes to their suppliers and supply chain. A fairer (and more relevant) comparison would be that of Hornby's BR Mk 1 at £19.95 with their BR Mk 1 with lights at £36.50 or with the camping coach at £24.49 (although the latter does have some skaledale steps thrown in).

 

I don't think that price will have a significant impact on sales. Yes, there will be a few who won't buy one because of "price" (or won't save up for one), but unless the model is an absolute stinker, I think the J15 will sell quite nicely. And quite frankly, £102 for a top quality model (unless they make some more "design clever" botches with its' construction), is a reasonable price.

 

One thing I believe we should take advantage off, is the long lead time for the these models to hit the shops. This would certainly allow us to budget for our 2014 Hornby purchases and set aside our pennies.

[Robin Brasher]

Although the Hornby Drummond 700 is probably the most expensive mass produced 0-6-0 goods 00 gauge locomotive I do not think that Hornby is pricing itself out of the market. To get a 700 you can buy a made up Bec Kit for about £85 or a mint boxed 00 Works one for £185. Both will be less well detailed than the Hornby version but will probably haul more goods wagons and be more robust.

 

If people really need a model they will pay for it. No one has made the similar Q class locomotive in 00 gauge since Graham Farish made one in the 1950s but I bought an 0 gauge Ace Q class a few years ago for about £250 and I have used it at the club meetings every month pulling up to 40 wagons so it owes me nothing.

 

If Hornby's 700 ever comes out I will get my money's worth out of it hauling the daily goods from Hamworthy, hauling the daily clay train and shunting coaches for the summer Saturday expresses on my model of the Swanage Railway. It is a pity that Hornby has taken about 60 years to produce a conventional southern region goods locomotive when there must be a demand for one.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

A couple of points about electric locos.

 

To model them effectively you need the whole infrastructure. 3rd rail is easy, but until an effective system of overhead line equipment is produced (at a reasonable price) then overhead electrics are always going to be for the minority...

Posted this before, and I post it again. Complete red herring if you are talking about 'majority' sales.

 

On the mainland of Europe, electric traction is everywhere, and home layouts (which are more avidly pursued in Northern Europe than in the UK) frequently major on electric traction. Of those I know, having family and friends over there, the setting up of OHLE is very limited. It is available, but relatively little used, other than on built for exhibition layouts. It's the practicality folks: how long do you think it lasts when kids use the layout?

 

What it comes to is that folks will or will not buy electric traction, whether or no the knitting is available.

[MarkSG]

Posted this before, and I post it again. Complete red herring if you are talking about 'majority' sales.

 

On the mainland of Europe, electric traction is everywhere, and home layouts (which are more avidly pursued in Northern Europe than in the UK) frequently major on electric traction. Of those I know, having family and friends over there, the setting up of OHLE is very limited. It is available, but relatively little used, other than on built for exhibition layouts. It's the practicality folks: how long do you think it lasts when kids use the layout?

 

What it comes to is that folks will or will not buy electric traction, whether or no the knitting is available.

 

For the train set market (and I'm not using the term disparagingly), yes, I agree. But the hobbyist market, at least here in the UK, does care more about context realism. So a model which is likely to have a greater appeal to hobbyists than train set owners will be handicapped by the lack of OHLE.

 

If you look at the overhead electrics which are available, they are the ones which have a strong "train set" appeal - Pendolinos, Eurostar and "Javelin" class 396, for example. The ones that get mentioned in threads such as these, by contrast, tend to be the ones that would have fairly limited appeal to train set buyers, being neither glamorous nor well-known. 

[Dunsignalling]

I am also surprised at the prices. This will impact on sales. For example a high quality 0-6-0 (the LMS 3F) from Bachmann is £71.23 at Hattons et al. They are asking for £101.90 as an advanced order price on the Hornby J15. How can a £30+ price difference be justified when both are new models? 

Hornby have been / still are chasing production capacity which is certain to be more expensive than Bachmann's more stable arrangements.

 

They will also be trying to recoup the losses incurred by their involvement in the Olympic tat fiasco.

 

Moreover, if one is modelling the ex-LSWR in Devon or Surrey, a 700 (same price as the J15) at £100-ish fits the bill and a 3F at whatever price, doesn't (though I already own one of those due to my secondary interest in the S&DJR line.)

 

I can live with the price of the 700s, in part because, apart from a pair of them and a couple of hangovers from 2013, I won't be buying much else from Hornby this year. That said, assuming they will be made to the same standard as the T9 they look like reasonable value for money (and still cheaper than the M7).

 

John

[brushman47544]

Given that Hornby already had the underframe, a 2Hal is probably just as good as the other 2 car alternatives. Not only this, but there is now critical mass developing amongst the Southern EMU rtr units. With the 2Hal, 4Cep, MLV, and various Southern Pacifics now available, there is plenty of potential for a really nice Kent Coast layout set at the twilight of steam. Much harder to do this for Sussex, although a 4Cor would plug a major gap for Hampshire/West Sussex.

 

The first layout at an exhibition I remember seeing as a nipper was an SR one by the Carshalton and Sutton MRC with lots of EMUs running. I still remember it better than most of the more recent EMU layouts I've seen, yet it's over 40 years ago...

[coachmann]

Regarding prices of what some folk consider are near identical models, Hattons et al do not have to justify prices. Model railway engines etc are like many other commodities and are priced according to what people will pay. The J15 has been long awaited and there is a ready market. As far as I'm converned, anything plastic RTR is an absolute gift, but then I'm used to building & painting kits and have different ideas on true value. Those who are what might be called Hornby-dependant should be the last people to complain when their options are so self-imposed !!

[edcayton]

Regarding prices of what some folk consider are near identical models, Hattons et al do not have to justify prices. Model railway engines etc are like many other commodities and are priced according to what people will pay. The J15 has been long awaited and there is a ready market. As far as I'm converned, anything plastic RTR is an absolute gift, but then I'm used to building & painting kits and have different ideas on true value. Those who are what might be called Hornby-dependant should be the last people to complain when their options are so self-imposed !!

 

...and, of course, they can always reduce the price if things don't sell. If you sell out quickly at a low price then you could have made more money! This applies to both manufacturers and retailers.

 

Ed

[The Stationmaster]

I am also surprised at the prices. This will impact on sales. For example a high quality 0-6-0 (the LMS 3F) from Bachmann is £71.23 at Hattons et al. They are asking for £101.90 as an advanced order price on the Hornby J15. How can a £30+ price difference be justified when both are new models? 

 

But you're not comparing like with like are you.  The 3F price you quote is the 2013 price less 10%, the j15 price you quote is an estimated 2014 price less something under 9% - the latter reflecting, I presume, the impact of Hornby;s new trade terms.

 

Now roll forward the Bachmann price to 2014 levels - we don't know what their increase will be but if they follow the Hornby route they could add 20% - bringing the RRP of the 3F to £100 and the RRP of the J11 and C to just shy of £108.  In other words - as I said a long way back - the price of the J15 is likely to be very much in the overall market range for a new 0-6-0 (and probably 0-6-0T) to top notch 2014 r-t-r standards.  

 

Of course we don't yet know what the level of Bachmann's increase will be and we are assuming no change to their trade terms so we will still see initial discounts of 10% on RRP from some traders while none (or only very few) will be able to afford to discount to that level on Hornby items.

 

And, like Coachmann, I think Hornby are pitching the J15 in the correct way although in my view it also represents for them an understanding that there is a different market out there and it will not absorb umpteen thousand examples of the engine over the next decade but will work on a much shorter timescale with a need to recover development costs quickly from a relatively small (in their terms) number of models.

[The Stationmaster]

...and, of course, they can always reduce the price if things don't sell. If you sell out quickly at a low price then you could have made more money! This applies to both manufacturers and retailers.

 

Ed

 

But the problem with that is someone will lose money and fail to cover their costs.  In some respects it doesn't matter who it is but the result is likely to be a turning away from producing less common prototypes and expecting, or needing, a quick return in order to simply cover costs.

[Downer]

I don't think that price will have a significant impact on sales. Yes, there will be a few who won't buy one because of "price" (or won't save up for one), but unless the model is an absolute stinker, I think the J15 will sell quite nicely. And quite frankly, £102 for a top quality model (unless they make some more "design clever" botches with its' construction), is a reasonable price.

 

 

I note with some trepidation that the J15 has a cabside handrail in the same place as the Star.  (Though a moulded one would be much easier to remove without leaving a blemish on a plain black loco)

[jonny777]

Regarding prices of what some folk consider are near identical models, Hattons et al do not have to justify prices. Model railway engines etc are like many other commodities and are priced according to what people will pay. The J15 has been long awaited and there is a ready market. As far as I'm converned, anything plastic RTR is an absolute gift, but then I'm used to building & painting kits and have different ideas on true value. Those who are what might be called Hornby-dependant should be the last people to complain when their options are so self-imposed !!

 

 

Coachmann makes a very good point here. Beggars can't be choosers. Anyone who wants a J15 right now will have to build one themselves, either from a kit or scratch, or have one built for them. All of these options will (when construction time is added to the equation) will cost rather more than just over £100.

 

And in my case, I can guarantee that a scratch-built or kit-built attempt by myself will never reach the standards of todays RTR products. Therefore Hornby has a captive market and in capitalistic terms can charge what they think the market will bear.

 

I'm afraid that as consumers we have little say in the matter of pricing, and our only option would be to cut off our noses to spite our faces - so to speak - and refrain from buying one, but with relatively small initial production runs I doubt that will have much effect as most of the first batch will have been sold on pre-orders, and if any surplus sell poorly then the next batch (maybe with a change of number) will be relegated down the queue of items to be released in future years.

 

I think that if I was the Hornby management, my reply would be "either put up or shut up", although they would probably couch that in far more tactful ways.

 

The writing is on the wall for the future - RTR model railways is set to become a much more expensive hobby.

[ThaneofFife]

A few, somewhat opinionated, random thoughts re pricing:

 

Firstly, I would prefer to buy one model at £200 that was really good, than two at £100 each that were mediocre. If I can only afford £100 per week/month/year, then I'll save up rather than have something I consider below par.

 

Whilst you have more discipline than most if you have always shopped that way, I reckon this is certainly the approach more modellers will begin adopting now if they arent already doing so - making better choices than perhaps "during the good years" if I can call it that when most of us were free to buy on a whim when new release locos were £70-80 then we got to the £100 loco and the rumbles started......BUT yes we want detail so OK lets go to £100.  Then you creep up to £130 then £150 before you add sound. 

 

Those early prices may also explain why I bet there are so called modellers/collectors (?) that have hundreds of similar locos stashed away in boxes than never see a display cabinet or piece of track.  Were they to easy to come by thus they just ended up hoarded stuff because they could?

 

How many of us will now be waiting longer for their new purchase instead of grabbing it as soon as its in the shops.....

 

Whilst I can see some commentators viewpoints which seem to pop up a fair bit that seem to suggest they are none plussed by the latest round of increases by Hornby (evidenced by a great deal of generous justification on Hornbys behalf) on the basis that we all want better detail, better quality and we will pay it etc.,  every man has his limit so at what point would you say that is?  £300 loco, £500 loco?  Youre then heading right into 0 gauge price tiers! 

 

I havenr trawled the full thread but I dont recall anybody being against increases per se but its the LEVEL of the increase.  Two completely different things that some may have forgotten when putting forward their cases for the rises.

[edcayton]

When most of us were growing up Everyone had a rtr model railway/trainset, and we all had the same trains (either Tri-ang or HD) with very little choice.

Nowadays very few kids have train sets, the modellers are older and more sophisticated (and richer), and have a far wider and more realistic choice of models.

Little wonder it's becoming more expensive

 

Ed

[ThaneofFife]

When most of us were growing up Everyone had a rtr model railway/trainset,

 

but ask yourself why that was.......it was affordable by the masses.

[chris p bacon]

but ask yourself why that was.......it was affordable by the masses.

Aaaah but a couple of days ago I heard a snippet of the Jeremy Kyle show (Yeh I know!) where a "guest" was wanting a lie detector on a theft of an ipad2 for a 6 year old costing £370, I thought they were mad but a discussion at work revealed a higher spend than that on kids !