2014 Hornby Announcements

[10800]

I think you've answered most of your own questions JE, and to be honest I was (pleasantly) surprised by the announcement. But a 2HAL looking pretty much the same as a 2BIL? Well they had two coaches and were mostly in green, but please! You may as we'll say a Derby Lightweight and a 108 look much the same, or a Hall and a Grange ...

[JBM37404]

I agree with what you're saying Chris, but I would have thought that at least some of the AC electrics would have fallen into Hornby territory of long-term, year on year sales. Perhaps not the volume sales of thousands of the same identical model, but several differently-numbered models in the same livery were produced in the same batch then they could sell. I'm guessing thats the direction Hornby are moving in with the pair of differently numbered 50's and the pair Colas 56 in the same livery in the same catalogue.

 

So when it comes to criteria used to pick what gets produced, I'd guess it goes something like

 

     Numbers of locos in the class (100x 86s, 36x 87s, 50x 90s)

     Numbers of liveries that can be produced (can you even count the numbers for 86, 87 and 90???)

     Geographical spread

     Period of operation (86's are coming up for 50 years old, 87s 40 and even the 90s are over 25)

     The all-important Transition era (86's tick!)

     Previous sales of similar models

     Standard of competing models (Hornby 86, 87, 90, Heljan 86, Bachmann 85)

     Related models produced (air-con Mk2s, Mk3's including DVT, intermodal flats, Freightliners, Bachmann BAA, TPOs)

     Comonality of parts

     X-Factor

     

Now with where we are with practically all the diesels produced to a good standard or land-grabbed (ok there are some with issues e.g. Class 25 cab roof, but they're still produced and will satisfy many) surely the biggest gap in whats currently available to modern standards is the AC electrics and they've got to tick most of the above boxes for what has the potential (if done right) for sales.

 

Heljan didn't really produce a definitive Class 86 but it kept a definitive price. Hornby's current 87 and 90 are like putting lipstick on a pig. The paintwork and decoration are beautiful but the models underneath just aren't up to scratch and I wont be buying any more until something better comes out. I'm sure there must be plenty of others in the same boat. I can understand the Classes 81-84 and 91's being left but they're still producing 91's to railroad standards but just look at the price!!! I've heard conflicting reports about whether Bachmann 85's do or dont sell well, obviously only Bachmann know how they compare to the rest of their range.

 

Sometimes I do find the choice of models produced a little puzzling, I mean, why produce a beautiful Mk3 DVT in IC Swallow when there wasn't the locos to a similar standard to run with it? Were they selected more for their post-WCML careers? Look at how much IC Swallow DVT's are sold on Ebay for - £50 - 60 - is that demand for them to be hauled on North Wales drags by diesels? Thinking of the Super-detailed D&E models Hornby have retooled from scratch most I understand completely - Class 08, 31, HST, 50, 56, 60, 67 and then there's the Class 153. I know it has lots of liveries and is a self-contained full train for short layouts ... but is that really going to out-sell what could be produced for AC electrics???

 

There are always oddities that get thrown up with the X-factor - one-offs, prototypes, 'celebrity' locos, prestige or express locos

 

Believe it or not I'm actually quite happy with what Hornby have announced in their 2014 programme, but I'm just stunned that these announcements come and go without at least one of the obvious AC classes floating to the top to be picked off. There just always seems to be the same mantra against them - 'AC electrics dont sell', which I really find hard to understand.

Hammer Nail head etc, completely agree here, brand new Mk2s, Virtually new DVT. Usually those things would follow the locos or am I wrong?

[Guest Belgian]

I think you've answered most of your own questions JE, and to be honest I was (pleasantly) surprised by the announcement. But a 2HAL looking pretty much the same as a 2BIL? Well they had two coaches and were mostly in green, but please! You may as we'll say a Derby Lightweight and a 108 look much the same, or a Hall and a Grange ...

 

All electric units look the same as do all diesels!   and all Great (sic) Western locos . . .

 

JE

[The Stationmaster]

All electric units look the same as do all diesels!   and all Great (sic) Western locos . . .

 

JE

You should have gone to spoke spec savers ... tehehe

[Guest maxthemapman]

Given that Hornby already had the underframe, a 2Hal is probably just as good as the other 2 car alternatives. Not only this, but there is now critical mass developing amongst the Southern EMU rtr units. With the 2Hal, 4Cep, MLV, and various Southern Pacifics now available, there is plenty of potential for a really nice Kent Coast layout set at the twilight of steam. Much harder to do this for Sussex, although a 4Cor would plug a major gap for Hampshire/West Sussex.

[Ozexpatriate]

You may as we'll say (a Hall and a Grange) look much the same.

I have to admit that from a cursory standpoint*, they pretty much do.

 

* Differences such as frame shapes aside.

[valeofyork]

I mean, why produce a beautiful Mk3 DVT in IC Swallow when there wasn't the locos to a similar standard to run with it? Were they selected more for their post-WCML careers? Look at how much IC Swallow DVT's are sold on Ebay for - £50 - 60 - is that demand for them to be hauled on North Wales drags by diesels?

 

Not sure what people use them with - guess it must be the old 90s and 87s or Heljan 86s as there isn't anything else! I picked up one of the DVTs cheap on ebay as part of a lot with some other things a while back, when they were still available new. It was unboxed and missing its front buffers but otherwise in excellent condition. I replaced the missing buffers, but I didn't really have anything it matched so I flogged it on ebay a couple of months ago - and got 68 quid for it which was a lot more than I expected (not that I'm complaining!).

[Pint of Adnams]

I have to agree, Larry, as you know the J15 (and its variants) is quite possibly the most successful locomotive of all time - taking into account return on revenue vs longevity and cost. The most numerous of all classes of locomotives taken on by LNER at its' inception.

 

Designed in the 1800's with examples still working in the early 1960s. It also holds the world record in construction speed - something like 48 hours at Stratford  (someone will know the precise time).

 

I'm only surprised it took this long to be a RTR.   The "lowly" 0-6-0's are the biggest success story of British railways in my view and virtually define the history.

 

Best, Pete.

Just 9 hours, steamed and into service straight away and not returning to shops for several weeks, just to prove it was put together proper like! There was as many J15s built as J39s - 289! During WW2 some J15s made it as far north as Doncaster, Mexborough and Barnsley, with others to the works at Darlington for repairs.

[coachmann]

Just 9 hours, steamed and into service straight away and not returning to shops for several weeks, just to prove it was put together proper like! There was as many J15s built as J39s - 289! During WW2 some J15s made it as far north as Doncaster, Mexborough and Barnsley, with others to the works at Darlington for repairs.

I heard one put in an appearance at Greenfield after getting lost somewhere around Huddersfield, but it might have been a dream....

[dibber25]

Ian, I wholeheartedly agree regarding paint, but I don't think that "RTA" is a successful marketing strategy.

 

This was a common approach in the US market for things like coaches and cabooses some years ago. A paint finish was applied, but the grab rails were provided in a little bag, often as unbent wire with a bending template on a sheet of paper. From what I can tell, this approach has all but disappeared.

 

Arguably Hornby do this to some extent already by providing a bag with brake gear and vacuum pipes etc.

Again, we're back to precedents. Manufacturers have long memories and 'Margate' did the RTA thing under the CKD (completely knocked down) label many years ago. We (the 'railway press') have asked on numerous occasions about re-introducing such an arrangement - and un-numbered/un-named models - but the 'been there, done that' argument always comes up. "Overall, it wasn't popular with customers and you couldn't even rely on people to put the transfers/stickers on straight" was the response on at least one occasion. It took donkeys' years to get rid of moulded-on handrails (remember the ones on boilers?) and it seems the flirtation with them again, may now be over, although I still think it was a way of avoiding some assembly issues in 'new' factories rather than simply a means of saving on costs. Rapido tried the 'kit' road with some of their Canadian coaches but quickly abandoned it - and their coaches contain up to 400 parts and take eight hours to assemble - so if they feel that RTR and a high price is preferable to self-assembly, it is difficult to see how Hornby might justify doing kits. By the time you produce the different packaging, instruction sheets, decals etc, the kit is probably much the same price as the factory-finished product.

CHRIS LEIGH

CHRIS LEIGH

[gardenwall]

Again, we're back to precedents. Manufacturers have long memories and 'Margate' did the RTA thing under the CKD (completely knocked down) label many years ago. We (the 'railway press') have asked on numerous occasions about re-introducing such an arrangement - and un-numbered/un-named models - but the 'been there, done that' argument always comes up. "Overall, it wasn't popular with customers and you couldn't even rely on people to put the transfers/stickers on straight" was the response on at least one occasion. It took donkeys' years to get rid of moulded-on handrails (remember the ones on boilers?) and it seems the flirtation with them again, may now be over, although I still think it was a way of avoiding some assembly issues in 'new' factories rather than simply a means of saving on costs. Rapido tried the 'kit' road with some of their Canadian coaches but quickly abandoned it - and their coaches contain up to 400 parts and take eight hours to assemble - so if they feel that RTR and a high price is preferable to self-assembly, it is difficult to see how Hornby might justify doing kits. By the time you produce the different packaging, instruction sheets, decals etc, the kit is probably much the same price as the factory-finished product.

CHRIS LEIGH

CHRIS LEIGH

 

The driving force for the CKD was the purchase tax regulations at the time - kits were not subject to it, then the regulations changed and CKD died. If vat were to be zero rated on self assembly things they would be back like a shot, but fat chance the government does not delete taxes and thus revenue without a compelling reason.

[APOLLO]

A few years ago I bought a Hornby Q1 0-6-0, god knows why, it's as ugly as sin, and totally wrong for my layout. She (?) is thus a "visitor from the south" occasionally !!. What I liked about this loco, (and I have never seen it since), was the inclusion in the box of a fret of very nice nearly scale loco headlamps. About half a dozen of em.  They are nice (fitted em to my "proper" locos !!). Look as I may I can't seem to find this fret for sale anywhere, indeed I've not seen them since on any of my new Hornby locos. They are much nicer than those by other manufacturers in my opinion.

 

Now if Hornby are upping their prices 20%+, then the least they could do to sweeten the pill is to add (quite cheaply) this headlamp fret, together with firemans tools and (dare I say it again) some rub on electrification flashes etc (for those of us, like me who want 'em !!).

 

If not included with the locos, at least make them availiable as a separate "Steam loco detailing pack" - I would buy several.

 

Yes, Hornby do a R573 Loco Detailing Pack, but this headlamp fret aint included.

 

Brit15

[tomparryharry]

All electric units look the same as do all diesels!   and all Great (sic) Western locos . . .

 

JE

The reason Great Western locomotives look the same is simple.

 

We like 'em that way, so only the true aficionado can tell them apart. After all, why let everyone in on the secret?

 

Ian

[MarkSG]

The driving force for the CKD was the purchase tax regulations at the time - kits were not subject to it, then the regulations changed and CKD died. If vat were to be zero rated on self assembly things they would be back like a shot, but fat chance the government does not delete taxes and thus revenue without a compelling reason.

 

And the reason that the tax change killed CKD is that the cost of final assembly is such a small part of the overall cost of a model (which includes not just manufacturing but also research, development, marketing, packaging and distribution) that, without a tax difference, customers wouldn't see a significant price benefit from it and would complain that the kits were overpriced. See also that other old chestnut, the unpainted loco/wagon, to which pretty much the same applies.

 

CKD (and unpainted RTR) can work where the economics of a model are such that all the initial development costs have already been covered, so it's possible to offer the CKD or unpainted form at a significant cost benefit over a finished model. Dapol does that with the ex-Airfix Stanier coaches, for example, as well as their unpainted standard van body. So Hornby probably could, if they wanted, offer it for some of their older models. But it's not going to happen for recent ones.

[Guest Belgian]

You should have gone to spoke spec savers ... tehehe

 

I did, but the specs only lasted about three months before dying. I now go to Tesco (every Lidl helps!)

 

JE

[Oldddudders]

Not only this, but there is now critical mass developing amongst the Southern EMU rtr units. With the 2Hal, 4Cep, MLV, and various Southern Pacifics now available, there is plenty of potential for a really nice Kent Coast layout set at the twilight of steam.

Not quite Kent Coast. The HALs were designed for 630 volts, rather than the 750 applied in KC electrification, so even if they had been still "about" on the SE when that started to go live, I don't think they'd have got beyond Gillingham and Maidstone. Bring the location back a bit towards London, and then you have a reasonable selection.

[Southernman46]

 The HALs were designed for 630 volts, rather than the 750 applied in KC electrification, so even if they had been still "about" on the SE when that started to go live, I don't think they'd have got beyond Gillingham and Maidstone.

They would have been able to with the heater & lighting circuits isolated as per the SUB's, so effectively ECS / depot moves only. The traction circuits could take the extra volts without stress.

 

I'm sure someone out there has the photo......................

[Guest Belgian]

Just 9 hours, steamed and into service straight away and not returning to shops for several weeks, just to prove it was put together proper like! There was as many J15s built as J39s - 289! During WW2 some J15s made it as far north as Doncaster, Mexborough and Barnsley, with others to the works at Darlington for repairs.

 

With respect, I would refer you to my earlier posting on this thread (no. 454) which read:

 

"I wonder if Hornby will get their J15 out as quickly as the Great Eastern did no. 930. It took Stratford 9 hours 45 minutes to build it in 1913. Have we progressed in 100 years? . . ."

 

JE

['CHARD]

 

 

I agree with you. Let's be honest, for the most part we are attracted to models of locos which were famous when we were growing up.

 

I don't really want to get hung up on this but there's clearly something of the Marmite about West Coast electrics. 

 

I grew up with them when the fleet was at its height, Class 81-87 in TOPS, blue / yellow, at New Street, epicentre of their operational sphere, with few if any withdrawals of the TOPS numbered examples.  The 87s were even named during my period of interest, but whilst this added an extra dimension to underlining them (and then the 86s), it was more a case of 'oh, not them, again.' 

 

Because what New Street had, and what the Trent had (Coton and Hademore crossings were favourite locations), was mixed traction.  And where there were Sulzer beats, an EE whistle or AEC rasp, there was an extra dimension.  What was exciting about 86s and 87s at New Street was when they came off for a Type 4 of any provenance to take the train forward. 

 

It may be down to what part of the West Coast you were on, but in my underlining and bashing days, there was no more than a handful of our Brum-based fraternity who rated AC electrics (apart from 304s, everyone loved a bouncy Dinosaur).  Peak Army, 37 main men, duff bashers, class 50 fanciers, 25s, even the wretched 31s got a look in.  But only two people I came across in those ten years ever rated electrics.  And that's probably, an unscientific I admit, value of roughly two percent of the enthusiasts I knew.  So rolling that forward to us middle-aged crew with access to some leisure pennies, maybe the ratio isn't that much different.

 

I can't speak of East Coast electrics, as their advent over there post-dates the mixed traffic AC electric loco railway, and that suggests it's also a generational thing.

 

Correctly put the Pendolino is todays train which is ready as RTR Modern day to me is anything post 1968 which depends on how you see it I guess. You as an individual fail to see any attraction to AC electrics and I can fully understand they are not as romantic but neither are most Diesels or Electrics. I am not arguing against steam models for a second. Its the complete lack of up to date AC models which span a generation. Its obvious that a few see my point of view but I am not for a second suggesting that any RTR manufacturer scales back their Steam or Diesel products in favour of AC. The arguement that nobody wants to buy them though I am not convinced on.

 

As an individual I see huge attraction to the quirky AL1-5 fleet, mainly for their odd looks and roaring sound.  It wouldn't be possible to run a convincing AC layout with just these though.  These roarers did possess a sense of something, if not necessarily romance, because of their sound. 

 

And the same I would say is true of many 60s' diesels, again because their striking styling and sound did confer a sense of presence.  In the case of Deltics and Westerns, to name but two flagship examples, I think it would be a hard non-railway heart that would deny the sense of romance here.

 

I'm a recent adopter of steam, as I model 1967-69; much criticised by steam purists, as 'Death Steam' is an area too sensitive for many.  I see its romance in terms of its dying embers and the heroics of the crews battling on with their tired, superseded and neglected hardware.  I'm no more in the market for a Duchess than I am a Class 90.

 

I hope that the demand IS there for the AC electrics in RTR form.  None of us knows how well they sell, beyond what each year's new release schedule might infer.  But it would be a churlish fool that wouldn't wish to see more layouts like Andy Dagworth's incredible Ravensclyffe, of Jim Smith-Wright's heart-stopping P4 New Street, or indeed that these guys had better starting points for the tools of their trade.

 

I'm on your side chaps, but it's a niche team I reckon.

[31A]

It's a very, very loose representation of this prototype: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/foxfield/leys.htm

Hmm, I see what you mean by 'very, very loose'!  Ah well, it might have some freelance usefulness I suppose....

[steve1023]

Guys - reading through the thread there are a couple of posters who have been in contact with Mr Kohler. Is he available freely for contact and if so is there an e-mail address.

 

Thanks

 

Steve

[robmcg]

Guys - reading through the thread there are a couple of posters who have been in contact with Mr Kohler. Is he available freely for contact and if so is there an e-mail address.

 

Thanks

 

Steve

 

If you write to a Hornby.com enquiry address and politely ask  for a query to be forwarded to Simon it probably will be. 

[Free At Last]

Guys - reading through the thread there are a couple of posters who have been in contact with Mr Kohler. Is he available freely for contact and if so is there an e-mail address.

 

Thanks

 

Steve

Google finds

Simon.Kohler@Hornby.com

[Pint of Adnams]

With respect, I would refer you to my earlier posting on this thread (no. 454) which read:

 

"I wonder if Hornby will get their J15 out as quickly as the Great Eastern did no. 930. It took Stratford 9 hours 45 minutes to build it in 1913. Have we progressed in 100 years? . . ."

 

JE

Sorry, I was responding to a poster somewhat later than that who obviously had also not seen yours. I'm afraid I'm also not sad enough to read every word in every single post in this thread (or any other).

[newbryford]

 

Thirdly, if Hornby (or any manufacturer) wants to keep prices down, but we still want to have fine detail, then they could simply supply the models as 'RTA' rather than 'RTR' (RTA = Ready to Assemble, RTR = Ready to Run).

 

Already been tried by Tri-ang Hornby - anyone remember the CKD mk1's?? CKD - Completely knocked down.

 

Cheers,

Mick