2014 Hornby Announcements

[coachmann]

Half of that if they had handles on both sides....????

Silly me... I started of talking 1½ inches then saw I had mentioned 4mm scale and just altered inches to millimeters without halving the sum.

[298]

I did look, and if I could have decided for myself from them, then I wouldn't have asked.

 

IMO, the driver's grab rails look good. But the ventilators look moulded and the passenger grab handles are indistinct.

 

Do you have anything more helpful to add other than sarky comments?

 

You could always carve them off and add your own separate grabs (as others have done with incorrect roof vents on other models).

[truffy]

I don't think some modellers realise how little these things stick out on the real thing. Take an LMS coach....9' 0" over body...9' 3" over handles. Therefore .75mm over a handle is best moulded if it isn't to be well overscale with daylight behind it!

Yet the grab handles on Hornby's 2-BIL stick out as much as the ones on the Maunsell coaches, while they're only blobby mouldings and the latter are 'proper handles'. I could understand your logic if the 2-BIL handles (and from the photos those of the 2-HAL) were more flush with the coach sides. But they are not.

 

You could always carve them off and add your own separate grabs (as others have done with incorrect roof vents on other models).

Yes, Im planning to do that with the 2-BILs that I already have. But then I thought to myself why are Hornby charging premium prices for models that are in some respects little better than Railroad standard? I have no problem paying premium prices for premium models, but if Hornby want to cut corners they should price these things a little more realistically. This is only my opinion, I don't expect Simon Kohler to agree.

[coachmann]

Yet the grab handles on Hornby's 2-BIL stick out as much as the ones on the Maunsell coaches, while they're only blobby mouldings and the latter are 'proper handles'. I could understand your logic if the 2-BIL handles (and from the photos those of the 2-HAL) were more flush with the coach sides. But they are not.

 

Yes, Im planning to do that with the 2-BILs that I already have. But then I thought to myself why are Hornby charging premium prices for models that are in some respects little better than Railroad standard? I have no problem paying premium prices for premium models, but if Hornby want to cut corners they should price these things a little more realistically. This is only my opinion, I don't expect Simon Kohler to agree.

So you would in fact be happy with moulded handrails if the coaches were much cheaper.  I mean Hornby coaches complete RTR (excluding the Railroad models) cost between £23.00 and £40-something. If those prices are unrealistic to folk, do they then create freight-only layouts or do they buy etched brass kits, solder, paint and glaze them and make interiors? And do they consider they can do all this for £23.00 - £43.00?  It looks to me like if thee's never built ow't, thee appreciates now't.

[t-b-g]

Yet the grab handles on Hornby's 2-BIL stick out as much as the ones on the Maunsell coaches, while they're only blobby mouldings and the latter are 'proper handles'. I could understand your logic if the 2-BIL handles (and from the photos those of the 2-HAL) were more flush with the coach sides. But they are not.

 

Yes, Im planning to do that with the 2-BILs that I already have. But then I thought to myself why are Hornby charging premium prices for models that are in some respects little better than Railroad standard? I have no problem paying premium prices for premium models, but if Hornby want to cut corners they should price these things a little more realistically. This is only my opinion, I don't expect Simon Kohler to agree.

 

The logic wasn't about the dimensions of the grab handles. It was about the difference in costs between moulding them and fitting individual ones.

 

Am I the only one who is totally bored of the constant stream of whinging and Hornby bashing?

 

As I said before, people seem to want super detailed models at rock bottom prices and then they want substantial discounts. Those days were great while they lasted but they have ended. Hornby have made their decision that they are going to cut back on seperate details to keep costs down. It isn't the perfect answer but it is a workable and realistic one.

 

There seem to be a very small minority that thinks this is a terrible thing and that Hornby management should be strung up because of it.

 

The vast majority won't even notice the difference, except in the price, which will be more affordable for everybody.

 

Any chance we could actually get over it and move on?

 

Looking at the photo above, which must be many times life size, I actually prefer the look of the moulded grab handle. The seperate ones are not evenly spaced out from the sides and that looks worse to me.

 

Tony

[Guest maxthemapman]

Am I the only one who is totally bored of the constant stream of whinging and Hornby bashing?

 

As I said before, people seem to want super detailed models at rock bottom prices and then they want substantial discounts. Those days were great while they lasted but they have ended. Hornby have made their decision that they are going to cut back on seperate details to keep costs down. It isn't the perfect answer but it is a workable and realistic one.

 

There seem to be a very small minority that thinks this is a terrible thing and that Hornby management should be strung up because of it.

 

Any chance we could actually get over it and move on?

 

We could save a lot of posts if we had an extra button on the side to add to "like" "agree" etc.: "cheapskate". I suggest the Euro symbol for that, c crossed through.

[Oldddudders]

The logic wasn't about the dimensions of the grab handles. It was about the difference in costs between moulding them and fitting individual ones.

 

Am I the only one who is totally bored of the constant stream of whinging and Hornby bashing?

 

 

No you're not. This particular debate seems to have started because someone expected others to know more about these vehicles than the Hornby photos showed. I'm not sure why he would think that - the whole point about the Hornby presentation was that it helpfully showed the latest stage that Hornby felt could be made public. He then went on to argue with two senior people in the hobby, both of whom are very experienced and in one case the professional builder of more 4mm coaches than the man in Switzerland has had hot dinners. Like everyone else, when these appear on the shelves he has the right to judge and vote with his wallet. Or build the superior version and show it here. Easy.

[NHY 581]

It would appear that railway modellers have such short memories.All this debate regarding Hornby using moulded handrails and other moulded detail demonstrates this so very well.

Think back ten years and remember what we had then.

We are now getting coaches which are almost as good as the finest kit built items off the shelf, but still we moan.

 

If we want these standards maintained then we have to be willing to accept an inevitable price rise. If we are not, then expect a compromise in detail.

 

We cannot have it all ways.

 

Start thinking of our glass being half full rather than half empty and let's move on.

 

As has been said, if the new stuff is not up to your standards, build your own.....seemples.

 

Rob

[truffy]

So you would in fact be happy with moulded handrails if the coaches were much cheaper.  I mean Hornby coaches complete RTR (excluding the Railroad models) cost between £23.00 and £40-something. If those prices are unrealistic to folk, do they then create freight-only layouts or do they buy etched brass kits, solder, paint and glaze them and make interiors? And do they consider they can do all this for £23.00 - £43.00?  It looks to me like if thee's never built ow't, thee appreciates now't.

Actually, I would be happier if Hornby maintained the standards that they have in the past shown that they are capable of. I'm not a cheapskate, I would happily pay more for a well-built model. But it does seem that Hornby are on the one hand trying to cut costs but on the other charging premium rate. If the detailing that they have shown in the past cost an extra 30 drinking tokens, that would be OK by me.

 

The logic wasn't about the dimensions of the grab handles. It was about the difference in costs between moulding them and fitting individual ones.

Actually, the logic seemed to be about the dimensions of the handles, if you actually read the post that I was replying to.

 

We could save a lot of posts if we had an extra button on the side to add to "like" "agree" etc.: "cheapskate". I suggest the Euro symbol for that, c crossed through.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that I'm a cheapskate. I certainly have an impression of you, but I'm too polite to disclose it here.

 

This particular debate seems to have started because someone expected others to know more about these vehicles than the Hornby photos showed. I'm not sure why he would think that - the whole point about the Hornby presentation was that it helpfully showed the latest stage that Hornby felt could be made public. He then went on to argue with two senior people in the hobby, both of whom are very experienced and in one case the professional builder of more 4mm coaches than the man in Switzerland has had hot dinners. Like everyone else, when these appear on the shelves he has the right to judge and vote with his wallet. Or build the superior version and show it here. Easy.

At least one person here has seen them in the flesh, since he photographed them. Does that help you? And I very much doubt that anyone has built more coaches that I've had hot dinners, at least not by hand, anyway.

[coachmann]

 And I very much doubt that anyone has built more coaches that I've had hot dinners, at least not by hand, anyway.

Eight hundred & fifty one, not including my own, all built by hand and excluding RTR rebuilds with etched sides, so your hot dinners win.

[iL Dottore]

In following this thread, I think that there are clearly two schools of thought regarding RTR models: the first, "cheap 'n' cheerful" (relatively accurate, much moulded detail, minimal [if any] "extras" - such as sprung buffers); the second, "high fidelity, higher cost" (much added, separate, detail [white metal, plastic, brass etch] and "extras" - such as sprung buffers).

The problem arises when there is no clear demarcation and separation between the two. So we end up with slightly schizophrenic models: part moulded details and simplification, part extra details and accuracy with knobs on... Due to which we get two groups of unhappy campers: the "C'n'C" brigade for whom the cost IS (perceived as?) too high; and the "HiFi" mob, who detest the moulded detail and other compromises.

Perhaps Hornby need to examine what the VW group is doing with their cars, taking a base design and then modifying the vehicle (finish, fittings, available extras [and QC?], etc.) according to the manufacturers badge (Skodas at one end of the spectrum, Audi the other).

ID

p.s. As another member from Switzerland (and an enthusiastic amateur Chef), I must regretfully inform Mr Coachmann and Olddudders that, indeed, I have constructed more than 851 hot dinners

[great northern]

In following this thread, I think that there are clearly two schools of thought regarding RTR models: the first, "cheap 'n' cheerful" (relatively accurate, much moulded detail, minimal [if any] "extras" - such as sprung buffers); the second, "high fidelity, higher cost" (much added, separate, detail [white metal, plastic, brass etch] and "extras" - such as sprung buffers).

 

The problem arises when there is no clear demarcation and separation between the two. So we end up with slightly schizophrenic models: part moulded details and simplification, part extra details and accuracy with knobs on... Due to which we get two groups of unhappy campers: the "C'n'C" brigade for whom the cost IS (perceived as?) too high; and the "HiFi" mob, who detest the moulded detail and other compromises.

 

Perhaps Hornby need to examine what the VW group is doing with their cars, taking a base design and then modifying the vehicle (finish, fittings, available extras [and QC?], etc.) according to the manufacturers badge (Skodas at one end of the spectrum, Audi the other).

 

ID

 

p.s. As another member from Switzerland (and an enthusiastic amateur Chef), I must regretfully inform Mr Coachmann and Oldudders that, indeed, I have constructed more than 851 hot dinners

You forgot the third, and seemingly very numerous group- those who expect the utmost high fidelity models, but at cheap and cheerful prices.

[NHY 581]

If we are using hot dinners by way of measurement and in keeping with the debate over detail or lack of it, should we not look at hot dinners themselves.

 

If for example we take a traditional, home cooked by mother, Sunday roast as the hi end roast dinner and a pre cooked frozen supermarket equivalent as the low end hot dinner then we have the same issues.

 

You would not expect to pay the same for a home cooked Sunday lunch as you would for a frozen supermarket equivalent would you.

 

There would be a marked difference in the quality of the components and the subsequent level of satisfaction obtained by the recipient. So it is with RTR models.

Don't expect a gourmet hot dinner for a supermarket price.

 

I will get my coat......

 

Rob

[tomparryharry]

"Waiter, there's a moulded handrail in my soup...."

 

"Please keep quiet Sir, they'll all want 'em now".

[chris p bacon]

If we are using hot dinners by way of measurement and in keeping with the debate over detail or lack of it, should we not look at hot dinners themselves.

 

If for example we take a traditional, home cooked by mother, <snip>

 

I will get my coat......

 

Rob

The trouble with an analogy like this is when my wife sees a sign saying "home cooked food" the thought of food cooked by her mother fills her with dread, most of it has a 100 year half life.........

 

 

 

 

 

I'll have your coat when you've finished with it.....

[iL Dottore]

You forgot the third, and seemingly very numerous group- those who expect the utmost high fidelity models, but at cheap and cheerful prices.

No, I hadn't, although I think that they are being very unrealistic. But in general aren't UK modellers, en-masse, getting from Hornby just what they are willing to pay for? (or perhaps what a vocal minority say they are willing to pay for????)

 

In the past, with cheap material and, especially, cheap labour, good quality models were inexpensive. Now, in order to be able to have something to sell in the same price band (and still make a profit and thus keep in business), producers have to make savings somewhere and QC is one place to start. Presumably the thinking is that "a few lemons are sent out, tough. But models can be sold at the prices the punters want". The cost of implementing a rigorous QC programme would add significantly to the model price. Even if only 1 out of every 100 is binned as "substandard", those 50 models out of a 5000 model batch must be paid for (and furthermore, that would also be 50 less models from the batch for the company to sell).

 

A useful analogy would be that of the DVD player chassis. Apparently, there are only a few DVD chassis manufacturers in the world who supply ALL the big electronics companies. However, the difference between the chassis sent to a high end electronics company versus the chassis that is sent to the cheap (and obscurely named) electronics company pushing out no-name knock-offs is the amount of QC and thus the acceptance (or not) of flaws and sloppy/loose/poor tolerances. The cheaper the end product, the more accepting of flaws and coarse tolerances the QC will be in declaring the batch acceptable for the electronics company customer. Both the el-cheapo and the high end companies will deliver a working DVD player, but reliability, longevity and quality of playback will be vastly different between the two.

 

Thus one can argue that providing a model that runs, is fairly accurate and (for the most part) assembled acceptably is all Hornby should be doing for the price range UK punters (it would seem) are willing to pay for. Now modern materials and production technology can only lower the cost so much per unit (and also reduce wastage), but if you want highly accurate, flawless models with fine detail and superb finish, you'll have to be ready to pay for it (and that price will include the cost of binning a greater number of models considered as "substandard" ).

 

Returning to the point I made before, without a clear demarcation and separation between "cheap 'n' cheerful" and "high-end" ranges, modellers will continue to be faced with anomalies of models with a mixture of low-end and high-end features. Neither fish nor fowl.

[Legend]

Ahh the Hornby catalogue will reveal all on specifications. Anyone know when it's out? Usually hits 3rd or 4th week January. I do have every edition since 1965 and so have to buy one

[The Stationmaster]

Ahh the Hornby catalogue will reveal all on specifications. Anyone know when it's out? Usually hits 3rd or 4th week January. I do have every edition since 1965 and so have to buy one

 

I'm not laughing at your (admirable) collecting habit but at the idea that the catalogue will accurately reveal the specifications.  On past example the illustrations certainly won't and some of the descriptions might be 'not entirely precise' although that mainly applies to the cosmetic aspect.

[Fat Controller]

You forgot the third, and seemingly very numerous group- those who expect the utmost high fidelity models, but at cheap and cheerful prices.

As an admiring Middle-Eastern shop-keeper said to my wife during a particularily prolonged bartering session 'Madam would like a camel for the price of a goat'

[Legend]

I'm not laughing at your (admirable) collecting habit but at the idea that the catalogue will accurately reveal the specifications.  On past example the illustrations certainly won't and some of the descriptions might be 'not entirely precise' although that mainly applies to the cosmetic aspect.

Yes I know it Mike. I was being a tad sarcastic. Still ,despite the limitations of descriptions and the photoshopped pics ,buying the new Hornby catalogue is still an annual tradition. In my younger day I would browse it for hours , and was seldom put away. Now I find after a quick browse through its filed away till next year. The latest editions are very professionally produced, but as you say not absolutely accurate, and sorry to say it but a bit boring. It could really do with a spruce up

[tomparryharry]

Yes I know it Mike. I was being a tad sarcastic. Still ,despite the limitations of descriptions and the photoshopped pics ,buying the new Hornby catalogue is still an annual tradition. In my younger day I would browse it for hours , and was seldom put away. Now I find after a quick browse through its filed away till next year. The latest editions are very professionally produced, but as you say not absolutely accurate, and sorry to say it but a bit boring. It could really do with a spruce up

You can play "Spot the missing bits" on the P2 picture....

 

Ian

[Brian D]

There is a very interesting article in the "winter" edition of Model Rail which may shed light on some of the supply chain problems the Hornby company has possibly suffered and the subsequent supply decisions made - very revealing and it has certainly made me look at these issues in a new light.  Recommended reading.

Regards and all the best to all in 2014.

[jonathan452]

I'm not laughing at your (admirable) collecting habit but at the idea that the catalogue will accurately reveal the specifications.  On past example the illustrations certainly won't and some of the descriptions might be 'not entirely precise' although that mainly applies to the cosmetic aspect.

Like the directional lights and sprung buffers on the 'upgraded' (not!) Class 90 for the Virgin Charter Relief (Pretendolino) train pack.

[jjb1970]

Cost vs. detail vs. operability is a balance for any model train and it is an inherent compromise. Even high end brass models often make compromises for operability. If the general shape is right then you can detail up a basic model, if the general shape is wrong then it is always going to be a compromised model. Hornby as with others sometimes get the general shape wrong, at other times they make models that for all the detail faults capture the overall shape and look very well but are visibly compromised in terms of detail finish (good examples is the new(-ish) GWR large tank models). Even high end brass models often drop clangers on the basic shape and overall look, a friend of mine has an HO CC6500 from Lemaco that looks a bit odd and some US brass E & F units look a bit strange. Sometimes even a dodgy shape can be quite acceptable, I know the Heljan DP2 has a poor nose shape and the visible undercut effect below the cab side windows is odd but overall I'm happy with my DP2 model. Everybody has their own benchmark in terms of what is considered acceptable in terms of cost, detail and operability and they differ wildly. Hornby (as with other RTR manufacturers) have to try and get a compromise which offends the fewest potential customers. Sometimes they get it wrong, sometimes they hit a bulls eye, I'll wait until the 2014 models are out before judging whether they hit jack bulls eyes or are lemons.

[robmcg]

Ahh the Hornby catalogue will reveal all on specifications. Anyone know when it's out? Usually hits 3rd or 4th week January. I do have every edition since 1965 and so have to buy one

 

I so look forward to the Hornby catalogue. I am always entranced by the use of photo-editing (which has been done by Hornby ever since they began catalogues, but at first with what was called 'artwork') to give excitement and life to the pages.

 

Not sure when it will be out, and hopefully not too long. Part of the pleasure of the hobby is deciding what to buy, and latterly, wondering about whether it will become available in 2014 or 2015. Not that the exact timing matters too much to me. There are enough models for sale new and second-hand right now to keep me interested, and many are superb quality, still, as illustrated by me in a couple of other Hornby threads.

 

Recently I have bought a new GWR Star, a BR Star, an LNER B17, two DoGs on order, and several, no, MANY weathered A3s, A4s, Black 5s, BR Standards, all at prices considerably below what European modellers would pay I think for equivalent quality, even if that's a bit subjective.

 

So for me, Hornby is still very alive and kicking, and the pleasures of collecting and photographing them is immense.