RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2014 The P2 only currently has a "wow factor" for knowledgeable LNER fans. I beg to differ. No-one ever accused me of being an LNER fan, still less of being knowledgeable! Yet P2 - and W1 - are legendary locos from that railway which in original form bear no visible resemblance to much else. Contrast that with the two classes of Bulleid pacific, which, in either original or modified form, all look pretty much like each other to the casual modeller or observer. I am also aware from comments on these pages that there are those who actively dislike Bulleids, probably due to their presence on several preserved railways many miles from their ancestral Southern rails. I find it hard to believe P2 would arouse any such negativity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Quite so! And remember, to a member of the public, a P2 has a distinctive wow factor whereas an un-rebuilt MN will to the uninitiated look rather like an unrebuilt WC/BoB (certainly Wrenn finished the latter in the guise of the former for many years!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2014 I beg to differ. No-one ever accused me of being an LNER fan, still less of being knowledgeable! Yet P2 - and W1 - are legendary locos from that railway which in original form bear no visible resemblance to much else. Contrast that with the two classes of Bulleid pacific, which, in either original or modified form, all look pretty much like each other to the casual modeller or observer. I am also aware from comments on these pages that there are those who actively dislike Bulleids, probably due to their presence on several preserved railways many miles from their ancestral Southern rails. I find it hard to believe P2 would arouse any such negativity. Neither have I! Despite being a dyed-in-the-wool Southern fan, I am fully aware of both these 'legends' (though I doubt the W1 in either its original, not-especially-successful experimental form or its later incarnation when recycled into a pseudo-A4 really deserves such a soubriquet). However, I am equally aware that many people even 20 years my junior, are not at all familiar with things that I found out about in my younger days. The people who had direct experience of such matters and who educated me about them, simply aren't around any more. I frequently used to operate on a well-known open-to-the public layout upon which a fine kit-built P2 regularly appeared. The commonest question from what might be called the "uninitiated" (under '40s) was "what is the 2-8-2". Most would have recognised an MN just from the nameplates! As for negativity, a lot of that comes from "familiarity breeding contempt". One P2 would/will be a great attraction wherever it goes (just like 'Tornado') but, if there were half-a-dozen dotted around the country, those on "foreign territory" would quickly become unpopular. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I have to agree the P2 is before its time, but it's a natural for Hornby and it effectively blocks Bachmann. But I doubt it bothers the latter as it can always do the Thompson rebuilds A2/1, A2/2 and A2/3 and probably end up with a lot more sales. I also imagine an original airsmoothed Bullied 'Merchant Navy' should sell well. There were several variants to keep folk interested even before rebuilding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2014 It only ran in the form offered for a short time and an even shorter one south of the border so will be unprotototypical when run by at least 90% of the people who buy one! John I completely agree and it should then fit in very well with the A4s running with 3 Gresleys behind or indeed most station platforms that are only capable of taking a loco plus 4. Except for a very, very few layouts, most of what is portrayed or run is un-prototypical. I am not sure that should stop anyone from modelling or enjoying the hobby. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2014 I honestly thought the P2 was a very strange choice but it's big and bright green so should appeal to the toyshop trade. However it seems that the 'better' version has sold out (to the trade) and overall it is doing very nicely in pre-orders for Hornby plus it will get a big bounce when the real one appears in X years time. I also think it might be an ideal precursor for the LMS Turbomotive which is also big and has no external valvegear, although it is red instead of green which might not work as well? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I honestly thought the P2 was a very strange choice but it's big and bright green so should appeal to the toyshop trade. However it seems that the 'better' version has sold out (to the trade) and overall it is doing very nicely in pre-orders for Hornby plus it will get a big bounce when the real one appears in X years time. I also think it might be an ideal precursor for the LMS Turbomotive which is also big and has no external valvegear, although it is red instead of green which might not work as well? I do wonder if Hornby has miscalculated the presupposed appeal for the Railroad range. Maybe folk consider locos with unnecessary moulded handrails and smokebox door darts are not cheap enough and so are going for the upmarket locos which while nowhere near Bachmann standard are relatively innexpensive. Who knows... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkSG Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I completely agree and it should then fit in very well with the A4s running with 3 Gresleys behind or indeed most station platforms that are only capable of taking a loco plus 4. Except for a very, very few layouts, most of what is portrayed or run is un-prototypical. I am not sure that should stop anyone from modelling or enjoying the hobby. Indeed. If manufacturers restricted themselves to prototypes that can realistically run on a large number of layouts, then we wouldn't have half the models we do have. But, in reality, the majority of model buyers don't limit themselves that rigidly. Quite apart from the train set and collector segments of the market, which don't really set themselves those kind of limits at all, even those of us who would consider ourselves hobbyists and do care about contextual realism often own (and enjoy running!) models that aren't precisely accurate for our current projects. It may be a speculative purchase for a possible future project, or it may just be an "I want one of those" purchase, or it may be something we feel we can stretch modellers' licence to cover, but I'm pretty sure most of us have got them. The P2 falls into the same category as a Blue Pullman or a Garrett. It's distinctive and appealing, and people will buy it for those reasons, not just because it fits into what they currently model. And - like the BP - it does fill a genuine need for the small number of people who model a setting where it is appropriate. I'm sure they're not complaining that their needs are being met partly because other people will use it unprototypically! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I think that the rebuilt Turbomotive was one of the best-looking loco's ever. And that was green....... Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I think that the rebuilt Turbomotive was one of the best-looking loco's ever. And that was green....... Ed Half a Duchess welded to half a Princess with nothing to smooth the joint........... An ugly bastard in the true meaning of the word. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2014 Indeed. If manufacturers restricted themselves to prototypes that can realistically run on a large number of layouts, then we wouldn't have half the models we do have. But, in reality, the majority of model buyers don't limit themselves that rigidly. Quite apart from the train set and collector segments of the market, which don't really set themselves those kind of limits at all, even those of us who would consider ourselves hobbyists and do care about contextual realism often own (and enjoy running!) models that aren't precisely accurate for our current projects. It may be a speculative purchase for a possible future project, or it may just be an "I want one of those" purchase, or it may be something we feel we can stretch modellers' licence to cover, but I'm pretty sure most of us have got them. The P2 falls into the same category as a Blue Pullman or a Garrett. It's distinctive and appealing, and people will buy it for those reasons, not just because it fits into what they currently model. And - like the BP - it does fill a genuine need for the small number of people who model a setting where it is appropriate. I'm sure they're not complaining that their needs are being met partly because other people will use it unprototypically! I wasn't suggesting that Hornby shouldn't make a P2 ever or that it will be a flop. I just think their timing is off where the mass market is concerned and nothing I've read so far has convinced me I'm wrong in that. How many 'Tornados' would Hornby and Bachmann have sold when the real thing was just a set of frames and driving wheels? I don't think it can be argued that the P2 is as "commercial" now as it will become when it has a high profile prototype equivalent helping to drive interest. Still, Hornby can always re-run it then (if they can find the tooling) and get a second bite of the cherry. As for the MN, it would have been an easy/cheap introduction in the meantime providing a model that has been fairly high on the wishlists for a number of years. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkSG Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I wasn't suggesting that Hornby shouldn't make a P2 ever or that it will be a flop. I just think their timing is off where the mass market is concerned and nothing I've read so far has convinced me I'm wrong in that. How many 'Tornados' would Hornby and Bachmann have sold when the real thing was just a set of frames and driving wheels? I don't think it can be argued that the P2 is more "commercial" now than it will be when it has a high profile prototype equivalent helping to drive interest. Still, Hornby can always re-run it then and get a second bite of the cherry. The difference is that the P2 being produced by Hornby is of interest from a historical perspective as well as the planned new build. It's a very distinctive loco, which always makes an attractive model, and its use in the Highlands of Scotland gives it an air of romance that more everyday locos don't have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold teaky Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2014 I'm sure the full size P2 will be much nearer completion by the time the model is released. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2014 The difference is that the P2 being produced by Hornby is of interest from a historical perspective as well as the planned new build. It's a very distinctive loco, which always makes an attractive model, and its use in the Highlands of Scotland gives it an air of romance that more everyday locos don't have. True for the enthusiast market. Largely irrelevant to the toyshop trade without some very expensive promotion. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2014 I frequently used to operate on a well-known open-to-the public layout upon which a fine kit-built P2 regularly appeared. The commonest question from what might be called the "uninitiated" (under '40s) was "what is the 2-8-2". Most would have recognised an MN just from the nameplates! So we should not be surprised when the youngsters say "but I thought 'Cock of the North' was a Class 87" when they see the P2? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I'm not sure why I feel compelled to add to this discussion. The P2 is a natural fit for Hornby. It's big green and named. It has interest well beyond LNER fans and properly fitting on a layout representing a specific place and time. It's also nice to see Hornby respond to the clear interests of the enthusiast market and do some work-a-day 0-6-0 locomotives. Let's remember that the development process takes time and that the design work on these items has probably been underway for a while. There's built in inertia in the system between models polling well and being announced but there is at least *some* correlation here. Yes, the as-built Merchant Navy is a natural fit for Hornby, being big, green and named and the fact that Hornby have chassis that are a good starting point. At this point I think Bachmann is more likely for the MN. They have the CAD for N gauge and it would not be a surprising announcement for them to do one in 00. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2014 So we should not be surprised when the youngsters say "but I thought 'Cock of the North' was a Class 87" when they see the P2? Oh dear brushman I fear time is passing faster than you realise. Youngsters think C*ck of the North is a 9F on NYMR. The one's who think it's an 87 have passed into middle age....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 The picture shows an 0 gauge Golden Age Merchant Navy. As Golden Age have produced a Merchant Navy and Graham-Farish are about to produce one it would suggest that there is a demand for one in 00 gauge. Further evidence is that Hornby's predecessor Tri-ang TT produced a popular Merchant Navy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I'm not sure why I feel compelled to add to this discussion. The P2 is a natural fit for Hornby. It's big green and named. It has interest well beyond LNER fans and properly fitting on a layout representing a specific place and time. It's also nice to see Hornby respond to the clear interests of the enthusiast market and do some work-a-day 0-6-0 locomotives. Let's remember that the development process takes time and that the design work on these items has probably been underway for a while. There's built in inertia in the system between models polling well and being announced but there is at least *some* correlation here. Yes, the as-built Merchant Navy is a natural fit for Hornby, being big, green and named and the fact that Hornby have chassis that are a good starting point. At this point I think Bachmann is more likely for the MN. They have the CAD for N gauge and it would not be a surprising announcement for them to do one in 00. I agree that Bachmann are more likely to produce a Merchant Navy than Hornby for the reason you have given. Both Wrenn and Graham Farish have made badge engineered Bulleid light Pacifics with Graham-Farish also making them in N gauge which would suggest that there is a demand for Merchant Navies. Wrenn produced them in Southern Railway green and black and British Railways blue with the cycling lion crest and incorrectly in BR green with the late crest which shows the variety of colours applied to these locomotives which is a strong selling point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2014 016.JPG The picture shows an 0 gauge Golden Age Merchant Navy. As Golden Age have produced a Merchant Navy and Graham-Farish are about to produce one it would suggest that there is a demand for one in 00 gauge. Further evidence is that Hornby's predecessor Tri-ang TT produced a popular Merchant Navy. Indeed,Golden Age do have plans to release an air smoothed MN in OO.Unless one of the two big players decide to produce one,I shall be tempted into bankruptcy ere I depart my mortal coil. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I think everyone's missed something about Hornby... Since the 1980's each new (and new build) mainline locomotive class has been modelled by Hornby, regardless quantity or type, with only 1 exception. Apt, HST, 56 (via Dapol), 58,60 (via Lima), 67 (via Lima), 90, 91,92, B17, Clan, Patriot, Grange, A1 now P2. Just give the saint and 47xx time and the right level of euphoria. I recall seeing pictures of a Hornby mock up of a 58, before the first 58 had been assembled. The key words..new, locomotive, mainline, euphoria gets the Hornby production slot. I'm assuming the exception, using the above analysis which includes Lima products as Hornby's own (therefore 59 and 66 too), is Cl.89? Where do Class 57 and 70 fit in? And I don't see the Clan relevance, or am I missing something again? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 The P2 is a excellent commercial choice for Hornby. From this One Loco Tooling you can actually make :- The Two original shape other (Earl marischal) has different valve gear and additional smoke deflector, Six Bugatti Nose rebuilds ( with small variations) all with same valve gear in Green and another Six in black. Much more sense than e.g Duke of Gloucester a one off which has still sold well. Looking forward to it in 2020 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Mention 'Pretty Polly' to people whose knowledge of railways is slim and they won't have a clue. Mention 'Flying Sctosman' and it's a case of "Yeh I know that one". The P2 'Cock 'O The North' is in the same boat.......It's the only famous one. Okay, so it will create a market for collectors who will buy the first, the second and a third with a wedge front, but modellers rushing out to buy more P2's is something else. It will be overtaken by events in six months time as folk clamour for the next 'big thing'. In fact I bet my best ferreting cap that the one-off 'Duke of Gloucester' would be more successful in preserved, early BR Totem BR1E and late Totem BR1J guises! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike70 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 The P2 is a excellent commercial choice for Hornby. From this One Loco Tooling you can actually make :- The Two original shape other (Earl marischal) has different valve gear and additional smoke deflector, Six Bugatti Nose rebuilds ( with small variations) all with same valve gear in Green and another Six in black. Much more sense than e.g Duke of Gloucester a one off which has still sold well. Looking forward to it in 2020 Never considered there would be wartime black versions. Just done an image search on Google and a black kit build of Mons Meg came up on Vectis. Mention 'Pretty Polly' to people whose knowledge of railways is slim and they won't have a clue. Mention 'Flying Sctosman' and it's a case of "Yeh I know that one". The P2 'Cock 'O The North' is in the same boat.......It's the only famous one. Okay, so it will create a market for collectors who will buy the first, the second and a third with a wedge front, but modellers rushing out to buy more P2's is something else. It will be overtaken by events in six months time as folk clamour for the next 'big thing'. In fact I bet my best ferreting cap that the one-off 'Duke of Gloucester' would be more successful in preserved, early BR Totem BR1E and late Totem BR1J guises!Do you not think that the two new full size P2 loco's will continue to generate interest in the model? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2014 Do you not think that the two new full size P2 loco's will continue to generate interest in the model? Probably - but what happens in the several years before they (or more likely just the one of them) appear in public? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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