Hornby 2-Hal with correct trailer pickup bogie

[Gwiwer]

2H's on the Alton Ian .  3-car units were found to be under-powered once they inserted the trailers.  Though unless all three of Eastleigh's were available for traffic one 3H was often used instead.

[Guest maxthemapman]

I want to be fairly strict, because we are now reaching the point where manufacturers would do well for some joined-up thinking.

 

I agree about the 4-Vep, and it is a real shame that Hornby put their's on a duff chassis, because otherwise Big/Cig could have followed. I am not even sure that they can fix the running qualities with pinpoint bearing bogies.

 

If I was exhibiting a Southern Electric/Region layout, I would want to have as much variety as possible to show people that EMUs are not all identical boxes on wheels. My old local station, North Dulwich had Bulleid 4EPBs on the inside, and RMLs on the outside for more years than I care to remember, and not the most exciting thing for people to watch. Better in that respect would be a fictitious joint Southern/Underground Station. I've been toying with the idea for years for a large Northern/District/Southern interchange set at at Morden South.

[Re6/6]

Regarding 'oddities' there's a nice picture in Robertson's '1st generation EMUs' on page 29 of a '4PUL' made up for test purposes at Redhill in 1956 from 'Brenda' (ex 6PUL) and three from a 4RES .

 

Also the only evidence that I've ever seen of a 6PUL + 4RES working.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4ZFi3Pcyy4

 

I've always had a soft spot for travelling in 'oddities' which harks back to my school days travel. I would always be pleased to see a Tin HAL coach at Waterloo in my Reading line train. They were so much more comfortable that tho old HALs!

[Gwiwer]

4Pul was also used as the designation for some short-term reformations in the early 1960s as the 6Pul / 6Pan units were being withdrawn in favour of the then-new Cep and Bep, then the Cig and Big, units.  There were also some other short-term units classified 4Cor(N).  The 4Pul units were through-gnagwayed as per the one quoted above using IIRC three Res coaches but an ex-6Pul Pullman instead of the restaurant car.  The majority of the 6Pul / Pan vehicles (minus catering cars) mere at the same time reshuffled into the fairly short-lived 6Cor units.

[SRman]

Did you notice that the 6 PUL unit had one of the prototype motor coaches in it, with the side sheets extended over the solebars? Pause the film at 0:15 to see it.

 

[Re6/6]

Did you notice that the 6 PUL unit had one of the prototype motor coaches in it, with the side sheets extended over the solebars? Pause the film at 0:15 to see it.

 

Thank you and well spotted! I shall remember that when we run this pairing.

 

We shall need two 6PULs so I'll have to build the 11001 prototype driving coach....And then of course there's the other prototype 11002 to fit in as well.

As you can tell all this sort of stuff 'floats my boat'!

[talisman56]

Thank you and well spotted! I shall remember that when we run this pairing.

 

We shall need two 6PULs so I'll have to build the 11001 prototype driving coach....And then of course there's the other prototype 11002 to fit in as well.

As you can tell all this sort of stuff 'floats my boat'!

 

Prototypes 11001 and 11002 were the 'A' end power cars in 6CIT[Y] (later 6PUL) units 3041 and 3042 respectively.

 

The two protoypes were of different designs, 11001 was the 'slab sided' one, 11002 was the curved side design eventually adopted.

 

Having seen the video above, looks like we can identify the 6PUL with the 4RES as 3041...

 

Correction: I ran thru the video again, concentrating on 0:14-0:19: the 'RES' on that train is in fact a 4BUF - the second coach is a Buffet car, the third a standard TCK as in a 4COR. 4RES units had a corridor composite with an open dining area at the end nearest the catering vehicle. See the trailer coach next to the 4GRI griddle car at 0:08.

 

Additionally, the first COR led train on the Waterloo lines is a twelve car train with a 4GRI in the middle. Pause at 0:08 and you can see the coach with the BR Mark 1 windows in the Maunsell bodywork.

[talisman56]

Bringing this back on topic, found this one on YouTube - lots of BILs and HALs from about 2:19 to 4:10

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPfvhn3Kwqk

 

From 2:00 to 2:10 is probably the only colour video I have seen of 4LAVs in action...

 

And this one has BILs straight from the start, including a train with a black/white headcode. Also video of the '2BIL Farewell' railtour.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi3De3HaCaU

 

And this one from the early 50's, Cab ride from South Croydon to Victoria; at 3:32 there is an interesting signal with down main and up slow signals on the same post, and at 8:53 a train of 2x 3SUB with a 2-car trailer set between.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmCdP_3XvOQ

[Graham_Muz]

As already stated in un-invisible ink in post 11 on the this very thread

[robertcwp]

In the YouTube one with the blue Hals and Bils, there is a hybrid unit about 40 seconds in - a Bil MBS and an ex-Hal DTC, and classified as a Bil.  I cannot quite make out the number.

 

I have some Bil and Hal photos in this set:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/sets/72157603648747922/

 

Including this hybrid:

2-HAL_2626_Wdon_7-7-67 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

Picking up on earlier posts, the first 76 Hals were built for the 1939 Gillingham and Maidstone electrification and did not normally inter-work with Bils.  In his recent book, David Brown comments that the 2677-92 batch were not specifically built for strengthening Waterloo-Reading/Guildford trains.  Their initial use was on Coastway services from Brighton although they soon moved to the Reading line where loadings were very heavy due to military traffic to Aldershot.  So, Bils and Hals inter-worked from very early on.  Once the Eastern Section units had been displaced by 2 Haps, Bils and Hals worked together on the Central and Western Sections and the only real distinction was that the Gatwick Airport portions were listed specifically as 2 Hal in the carriage workings, and were normally 'tin' Hals on account of their large van space and better seating.

 

Bils were rare east of Brighton pre-war.

[Gwiwer]

At risk of labouring a point the image of 2626 (clearly) and others (perhaps less so) shows the paint to be a completely different shade to that used by Hornby for BR era on the existing Bil models and suggested by artwork for the forthcoming Bil and Hal units.

[robertcwp]

I have the Saturday and Sunday EMU carriage workings for July 1939 (but unfortunately not the Monday to Friday workings).

 

The Sunday workings include a summer dated 8 Hal at 6.56 pm from Portsmouth & Southsea to London Bridge, platform 10, which then formed the 9. 5 pm to Gillingham.  There was also a dated 8.42 pm Gillingham-London Bridge which then formed the 9.47 pm to Portsmouth Harbour, which was 8 Cor.  There were a couple of other similar workings too.

 

There was also a Sunday 8 Lav working, apparently in passenger service, from London Bridge to Slades Green (as it was then) and back, possibly for maintenance purposes.

 

Lots of single 2 Hals on the Maidstone services on Sundays.

 

The Saturday 7. 0 am London Bridge to Ore and 10. 0 am return of the stock to Victoria (direct) were 8 Hal as were the 2.40 pm (dated) Saturday Victoria-Eastbourne and 2.28 pm Portsmouth Harbour Victoria (dated).

[robertcwp]

 

 

And this one from the early 50's, Cab ride from South Croydon to Victoria; at 3:32 there is an interesting signal with down main and up slow signals on the same post, and at 8:53 a train of 2x 3SUB with a 2-car trailer set between.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmCdP_3XvOQ

I think this is from the 1930s, and quite possibly no later than 1935.  The Waterloo lines still have semaphore signals and there is no air raid protection on the signalboxes spanning the line at Clapham Junction.  Is there a SPAD at about 4:30?

[robertcwp]

Regarding 'oddities' there's a nice picture in Robertson's '1st generation EMUs' on page 29 of a '4PUL' made up for test purposes at Redhill in 1956 from 'Brenda' (ex 6PUL) and three from a 4RES .

 

Also the only evidence that I've ever seen of a 6PUL + 4RES working.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4ZFi3Pcyy4

 

I've always had a soft spot for travelling in 'oddities' which harks back to my school days travel. I would always be pleased to see a Tin HAL coach at Waterloo in my Reading line train. They were so much more comfortable that tho old HALs!

It's a 4 Buf/6 Pul, not a Res (this film dates from after the Res units had been disbanded).

 

The up Portsmouth train has a 4 Gri in the formation.

[talisman56]

It's a 4 Buf/6 Pul, not a Res (this film dates from after the Res units had been disbanded).

 

The up Portsmouth train has a 4 Gri in the formation.

 

See also my post #32...

[talisman56]

I think this is from the 1930s, and quite possibly no later than 1935.  The Waterloo lines still have semaphore signals and there is no air raid protection on the signalboxes spanning the line at Clapham Junction.  Is there a SPAD at about 4:30?

 

I was working on the presence of two-car trailer sets to set the latest possible date - and then relying on someone more knowledgeable than I on non-rolling stock aspects to propose a more accurate time period...

 

With regards to the possible SPAD at about 4:30, you may well be right - freeze the video at 4:25... at 4:34 there is a repeater showing 'off' and at 4:37 the signal that the repeater relates to is also showing 'off'. I wonder if the crew working just after the bridge previous to the 'SPAD' are working on a mechanical problem between the signal box before the bridge and the signal showing 'on' and the motorman has a special instruction to pass that particular signal at 'danger'.

 

There was a very esoteric mix of upper- and lower-quadrant signals on the up side of Streatham Common in those days...

[talisman56]

Found another one - this time aboard the Brighton Belle unit 3053 (thus dating the initial 30 seconds at post-1937). As well as demonstrating the horrendous riding of the train, it does jump about a bit, but does show the salient pints of the route from Victoria to Brighton.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOuHBZbWweI

 

Comments:

1) shows the layout of the 'staggered' platforms at Victoria.

2) the lack of visibility of Battersea power station when crossing the Thames puts that bit at well prior to 1937, as the 'A' station was started in 1929 and completed in 1935.

[Colin parks]

Some opinions on the Hornby thread that 4 coach MUs and greater are a bit of a gamble in terms of sales. Activities of Bachmann/Kernow seem to bear this out. From the point of view of the Hornby basic underframe this gives us 2Nol, Tin Hal, Bulleid 2EPB and 2Hap. Not complaining, but a pity. I am buying every single green EMU set produced by all manufacturers (plus brown/cream ones) so I am doing my bit to encourage them!

 

Hi Max,

 

I have just noticed your post re the basic underframes.  The Bullied 2 EPBs and HAPs while using the same standard 62ft chassis (reclaimed form 2 NOLs) did have completely different equipment on the motor coaches, so it would be stretching a point to use 2 HAL underframes for those units.  The 4 SUB underframes have far more similarities with the those of the 2 HAL's and given that the Hornby chassis boasts separate buffer beams at the outer ends, the driving trailer underframe could easily have a centre buffer as a substitute. Hornby also by accident rather than design(clever) have the tooling for an un-motorised motor bogie, which is another  bonus for those who hope for a 4 SUB one day.

 

One small fly in the ointment re. the 2 HAL trailer coach is that it should have a different shape of trussing to the  motor coach, which Hornby have not been able to reproduce.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Guest maxthemapman]

Colin,

 

Yes, so if Hornby want to model something with some modern image appeal, they will have to alter one of the basic underframes. I don't want to get one of my 2Bils out of the box (one day they will get their layout) so I can't remember how much work it would be to create a re-equipped underframe.

 

Another question: I know that the 2-Nols were converted steam stock, so were they a rag-bag in terms of bodywork and dimensions, or did SR have the benefit of a large number of identical redundant coaches handy?

 

Assuming that EMU sales are going well enough for manufacturers to contemplate new units, Bachmann and Hornby both have enough available for a number of options to be relatively easy to create without having to start from scratch, but in both cases I wouldn't like to suggest where they should go next to maximise sales relative to outlay. Possibly 2Nol for Hornby, possibly BR MK1 2Hap from Bachmann.

[Colin parks]

Hi Max,

 

I have dug out an old photo which at least shows how different one side of the 2 HAP is to a 2 BIL in terns of under-gubbins.

 

 

On the opposite side, the equipment is also unlike the 2 BIL's. On the 'Bulleid 2 HAP' topic you will find many detail shots of the prototype's underframes as taken by dasatcopthorne.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[HAB]

Max,

 

Just to add to Colin's point - the majority of the 2NOLs had Metrovick electrical equipment - quite unlike any except the first 10 BILs.  Only the last 8 NOls had the "1936" English Electric equipment as fitted to the production BILs - and even then there were significant differences in the detail of the layout. 

 

There are a million traps for the unwary in SR EMUs - lets hope that future RTR efforts will avaoid at least some of them!

 

Best wishes,

[Gwiwer]

 

the salient pints of the route from Victoria to Brighton.

 

 

Sadly no chance to stop and enjoy them on a non-stop Brighton Belle run  Though upon arrival in Brighton you may care to start at the EveningStar just outside the station

[RFS]

I think this is from the 1930s, and quite possibly no later than 1935.  The Waterloo lines still have semaphore signals and there is no air raid protection on the signalboxes spanning the line at Clapham Junction.  Is there a SPAD at about 4:30?

I don't think there's a SPAD here at 4.30: look carefully and there's a second signal to the left of the one at danger,  and which is "off".  I believe the signal next to the track that is "on" applies to the line to the right of the train.

[bazza.]

Max,

 

Just to add to Colin's point - the majority of the 2NOLs had Metrovick electrical equipment - quite unlike any except the first 10 BILs.  Only the last 8 NOls had the "1936" English Electric equipment as fitted to the production BILs - and even then there were significant differences in the detail of the layout. 

 

There are a million traps for the unwary in SR EMUs - lets hope that future RTR efforts will avaoid at least some of them!

 

Best wishes,

Hi Howard,

 

So am I correct in thinking that in service only the last 8 2Nol built, units nos.1883 to 1890 could work in multiple only with the later 2Bil units nos. 2011 to 2152 and all the 2Hal units, because all these units were fitted with English Electrtic electro-pneumatic control gear?

 

And the rest of the 2Nol units nos. 1813 to 1883 could work in multiple only with the first 10 2Bil units nos. 2001 to 2010 and all the 4Lav units, because all of these units were fitted with Metrovick electro-magnetic control gear ?

 

And as the current Hornby models of the 2BIL and 2Hal units are modelled only of units fitted with English Electric control gear, If Hornby were to make a a model of a 2Nol, for it to be technically correct, and work in multiple with the existing Hornby 2Bil's and 2Hal's, Hornby has only the last 8 2Nol units to choose from and then only in 2 different liveries,SR and early BR green.

 

Regards

 

Bazza

[HAB]

Hi Howard,

 

So am I correct in thinking that in service only the last 8 2Nol built, units nos.1883 to 1890 could work in multiple only with the later 2Bil units nos. 2011 to 2152 and all the 2Hal units, because all these units were fitted with English Electrtic electro-pneumatic control gear?

 

And the rest of the 2Nol units nos. 1813 to 1883 could work in multiple only with the first 10 2Bil units nos. 2001 to 2010 and all the 4Lav units, because all of these units were fitted with Metrovick electro-magnetic control gear ?

 

And as the current Hornby models of the 2BIL and 2Hal units are modelled only of units fitted with English Electric control gear, If Hornby were to make a a model of a 2Nol, for it to be technically correct, and work in multiple with the existing Hornby 2Bil's and 2Hal's, Hornby has only the last 8 2Nol units to choose from and then only in 2 different liveries,SR and early BR green.

 

Regards

 

Bazza

 

Hello Bazza,

 

No that is not my understanding - these units could work in multiple as the control systems (ie the jumpers and connections between units) were fully compatible (gear ratios being a separate issue). The big difference between the two systems was in how the equipment functioned and how it was located on the unit - thus the older Metrovick equipment was all housed in a cubicle adjacent to the driving compartment whereas the EE gear was all underframe mounted and exposed for all to see.  When the BILs started to be withdrawn it was the Metrovick equipped ones which went first along with the similarly equipped LAVs.  From a photo of the end of a unit you can tell the difference - Metrovick units had the power conduit routed over the roof, whereas EE units had it routed down the offside to the underframe.

 

Thus - in the context of RTR EMUs - the same mouldings etc cannot be used for both. thus, if Hornby wanted to produce a NOL (can't see it myself!) they would need a new underframe for the motor unless they modelled one of the last 8 untis.  

 

Hope that is a bit clearer.

 

There are lots of other subtleties - the later batch of BILs for example had stronger underframes and Spencer Moulton self-contained buffers.  The one modelled by Hornby has the earlier underframe with square stem buffers - careful when renumbering. 

 

 

Cheers,