The Great Train Robbery BBC1 Series.

[leopardml2341]

I thought some of the Luton MRC guys looked a bit suspect.

 

Feature4BW1000.jpg

 DCC lighting too bright - can't verify the headcode

[18B]

Don't ever remember seeing a ground signal that looked like that. Surely it would have been a regular colour light signal?

 

David

 

Signals on the ground like the one depiected did exist even into the 80's and 90's, you're thinking of a ground position light used for shunt moves which of course look nothing like the one shown.

 

To be fair, this was the first time on TV/film that refererence to was made to having to tamper with TWO signals, the film only refers to the changing of one.

[18B]

1) The means of stopping the train bore little resemblance to how it was actually done, there was no 'rehearsal' (see Steam World March 2013) the signals, stations, locomotive and road vehicles all bore little or no resemblance and smacked of a low budget 'that'll do' approach.

 

2) The minor injury meted out to Jack Mills was also at odds with the widely published photo of him after the event.

 

3) A little knowledge can spoil these programmes though. My wife was a microbiologist and I recall, every time there was a TV movie with a laboratory in it, she would say "you don't use that machine/piece of equipment like that!"

CHRIS LEIGH

 

1) See my earlier post, it was a more accurate descriptioon than the film, but also in todays hightened fears of terrorism etc, do we really want to be giveng a detailed description of how to stop a train, (Admitted in most cases the technology today has now renderred the method outdated) 

 

2) minnor injury? The blood and Mills' general look was far more severe than the film 

 

3) and there's the rub, did any of it destroy your injoyment of the crime/police/detective drama etc you were watching? to 99.9% of those watching the points raised matter not one jot. 

[18B]

 I couldn't understand why two big light cubes were strapped to the nose though.

 

A major problem with filming at night is that, funnerly enough it's dark and thus in order to throw more light onto the area so the viewer can actually see what's going on, it looks as though a decision was made to introduce more lighting.

 

At the bridge for example http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/11/article-1319591-0B4E847F000005DC-210_468x350.jpg

there was no light over the identification plate, but again in order to throw more light onto the events one was added to the bridge.

 

The same is also true of why the cab lights were on, indeed they probably weren't on at the time, but as with all of the above, If it was 100% accurate, it wouldn't have been seen by the viewer

[Pete 75C]

I finally bit the bullet and settled down last night (I'm too old to go out clubbing) to watch both parts. 3 hours, a couple of beers and a large bag of cheese & onion later, I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed it. My fears about the RMWeb "inaccuracy" spoilers were unfounded - those that I noticed didn't matter to me at all. It's just TV, after all.

[Froxfield2012]

Didn't the 2.4 out perform its bigger brother.  IIRC the increased engine power of the 3.8 didn't cover the extra weight. I believe the criminal fraternity used the 2.4 as a get away car for that reason. 

Well, back in the 60s and early 70s (when I hadn't long been driving!) my father had a 2.4 followed in quick succession by a 3.4.  I haven't driven a 3.8 but the 3.4 was markedly quicker to me than the 2.4 which always seemed a bit under powered.

 

Richard

[melmerby]

Well, back in the 60s and early 70s (when I hadn't long been driving!) my father had a 2.4 followed in quick succession by a 3.4.  I haven't driven a 3.8 but the 3.4 was markedly quicker to me than the 2.4 which always seemed a bit under powered.

 

Richard

They may not have been much difference between the 3.4 & 3.8 but from what I can remember (not as an owner however!) they were both better than the 2.4 performance wise

IIRC the Daimler 2.5 V8 version was also pretty nimble.

 

Wikipedia gives the 2.4 @ 120BHP, 3.4 @ 210BHP and 3.8 @ 220BHP.

The Daimler 2.5 is 142BHP and weighed 150lb less.

Wikipedia also notes the 3.8 was popular with both criminals and and the law due to it's performance and 5 seats!

 

Keith

 

EDIT IIRC the BHP are the SAE derived figures and therefore somewhat above the modern DIN figures.

[griffgriff]

I think I muddled the 3.4 and 2.4.

[Baby Deltic]

I finally bit the bullet and settled down last night (I'm too old to go out clubbing) to watch both parts. 3 hours, a couple of beers and a large bag of cheese & onion later, I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed it. My fears about the RMWeb "inaccuracy" spoilers were unfounded - those that I noticed didn't matter to me at all. It's just TV, after all.

If you watch it with your eyes closed, so you miss all the gaffes, its a great show.

[Rugd1022]

Well I watched the first part last night and despite the errors still enjoyed it. I thought the casting was very good with some of the gang members resembling thier namesakes remarkably well, in particular the chap playing Gordon Goody had him off to a tee I thought. The exection of the robbery itself and stopping the train couldn't really have been depicted accurately on screen as the gang were actually scattered about on the night, with Bruce Reynolds moving from one place to another in one of the Landrovers, dropping various gang members off at certain points and directing operations so to speak, I'd concede that to show all that activity in any real detail would probably have been quite confusing for some of the audience and slowed things down somewhat.

 

Overall though, I thought it was very well made and the opening sequence with the Heathrow Airport blag of '62 played out on the screen exactly as I'd imagined it in my own mind, after reading Reynold's own account of he crime. The Jag and Daimler used in this sequence could easily have had pre-suffix number plates fitted (£20 each if you know where to look!) but this minor detail didn't spoil the action as I saw it.

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT : I so want a Mk2 Jag now it's not true...!!!

[Pete 75C]

If you watch it with your eyes closed, so you miss all the gaffes, its a great show.

 

They were half-closed. I blame Tesco's 3 for 2 Christmas beer offer.

[melmerby]

The best one

 

Totally unbelievable.

They got the loco number wrong and I reckon the balaclavas were the wrong shade as well!

 

Keith

[Metr0Land]

Leaving aside all the countless errors one thing did disappoint me in the closing credits.  Although late in Ep 2 it was mentioned Jack Mills was now very sick etc in the closing credits he didn't get a mention as having died in 1970 - whereas there was some follow up biographies of police/criminals eg xxx got 25 years, zzz retried yyyy and died yyyy

[Metr0Land]

Another anachronism that was bugging me -  Cassandra from Only Fools and Horses was a clippie on route 53.  We saw a scene where she got off a Routemaster and the driver(?) was fiddling with the rear light.  Trouble was this was still 1963 and RM's didn't come on to the route until '67.  At least it wasn't one of the many much more modern buses we saw in the 2 episodes.

 

http://www.londonbuses.co.uk/routes/053-2.html

 

 

In case anyone thinks it's just us nit-picking - one of the journos in the Sunday Mail picked up on the fact the police patrol car sirens used the nee-naw type when they should still have been bells in 1963.

[John M Upton]

I'm not sure, it looked like an RT Regent to me. I could be mistaken though...

[Xerces Fobe2]

I thought some of the Luton MRC guys looked a bit suspect.

 

Feature4BW1000.jpg

 

Was one of them Rob!

[Metr0Land]

I'm not sure, it looked like an RT Regent to me. I could be mistaken though...

 

Dead giveaway was the centre numberplate on the rear.  I guess the guy was fiddling with it to obscure the plate which I'm also guessing was one occasion they had the nous to realise the plate was way too late an issue for the time.  Also the side blind over the platform would have been completely different for an RT.

 

 

Edit:  See here at 53:22 http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03mk46t/The_Great_Train_Robbery_A_Coppers_Tale/

 

On looking again it looks more like he's obscuring the plate 'cos it's one where the bus has been re-reg'd and lost it's WLTnnn plate

[ThaneofFife]

  

 

That's what it was!! I couldn't quite put my finger on what was wrong with the scene, it was on the wrong track.....

.......two few tracks too and no overhead gantries for the catenary and I doubt they had those 2 aspect ground colour light signals on that open stretch of WCML but......i wasnt in the slightest bit bothered either      Ive often wondered how they brought that train to a stand when presumably it was 4 aspect signalling and the mail was heading south under green signals.  If they changed the ultimate signal to show red and the penultimate to show a single yellow then the driver would normally have passed a double yellow beforehand.  Was the line 3 aspects?

 

I just sat back and switched my brain off and enjoyed the program.  It was less about the actual robbery and more about the planning leading up to it and then in part 2 the investigation led by Thomas Butler played brilliantly by Jim Broadbent - Butler seemed a funny old bean, tearing up overtimes slips and picking off peoples desks for notes that the other detectives had made once they had all gone home and then typing his own notes up long into the night - was he gathering as much of the case notes for his own glory but then again coming up to retirement there was nowhere that that next promotion would take him so taking maybe it was deep personal pride in wanting to solve the case and very little homelife to fill the voids outside normal working hours?

[Fat Controller]

.......two few tracks too and no overhead gantries for the catenary and I doubt they had those 2 aspect ground colour light signals on that open stretch of WCML but......i wasnt in the slightest bit bothered either      Ive often wondered how they brought that train to a stand when presumably it was 4 aspect signalling and the mail was heading south under green signals.  If they changed the ultimate signal to show red and the penultimate to show a single yellow then the driver would normally have passed a double yellow beforehand.  Was the line 3 aspects?

 

I just sat back and switched my brain off and enjoyed the program.  It was less about the actual robbery and more about the planning leading up to it and then in part 2 the investigation led by Thomas Butler played brilliantly by Jim Broadbent - Butler seemed a funny old bean, tearing up overtimes slips and picking off peoples desks for notes that the other detectives had made once they had all gone home and then typing his own notes up long into the night - was he gathering as much of the case notes for his own glory but then again coming up to retirement there was nowhere that that next promotion would take him so taking maybe it was deep personal pride in wanting to solve the case and very little homelife to fill the voids outside normal working hours?

This was pre-Modernisation Plan upgrade, so there was no catenary at the time (it might have got as far south as Rugby?), whilst the signalling would probably have been three-aspect colour-light at most. It might even still have been semaphore with colour-light distants.

[Rugd1022]

The overhead gantries and some of the drop arms were in place by August '63 but lacked the wires - here's a pic I found of Sears Crossing on Google a while back, showing the signal at which the mail train was stopped...

 

 

As you can see the colour lights are two aspect here, the one on the left is for the Up Slow, the one nearer to us is for the Up Fast, where 1M44 was stopped by the gang.

[The Stationmaster]

The overhead gantries and some of the drop arms were in place by August '63 but lacked the wires - here's a pic I found of Sears Crossing on Google a while back, showing the signal at which the mail train was stopped...

 

article-2232668-006A1B4500000258-281_634x457.jpg

 

As you can see the colour lights are two aspect here, the one on the left is for the Up Slow, the one nearer to us is for the Up Fast, where 1M44 was stopped by the gang.

Quite agree Nidge - some of the overhead gantries were in place in that are by then (and apart from me seeing them a few weeks later when I passed by they are visible on some contemporaneous photos).

 

The signals were IBs (Sear Green I think?) and hence therefore 2 aspect as they were some distance in rear of Cheddington's signals.  I'm reasonably sure that the repeaters were ground level mounted but I might not be correct on that as there were quite a lot of ground mounted IB repeaters and colour light Distants on the WCML at that time and I might - at this distance in time - be confusing them with others.  I suspect they were 2 aspect - noting that the IB Homes were fairly modern signal heads - although they might at one time have had 3 aspect heads with the second yellow as a standby in case the main yellow failed.

 

No doubt Signal Engineer will put right any detail errors on my part - after all I was just a schoolboy who occasionally from 1963 onwards made trips Up & down the WCML and devoted my journey to watching modernisation progress.

[Captain Kernow]

Part two just kicked off with two clear sightings of London Buses built well after 2005 (one passing the modern Underground roundelled entrance to Westminster Underground Station and the other visible in rear of a car window moments later plus the status board describes our infamous Class 37 as a Class 40 locomotive, a description not applied for at least another five years.

 

Thanks to complete ineptness with working out how to record programmes on the Freesat system, I managed to miss the first episode, and we couldn't find it repeated anywhere anytime soon. I did watch the second one, thought, and thought that Jim Broadbent was absolutely brilliant. The make-up was so good, that I didn't initially recognise it as being him.

 

In the second episode there were only a few flashbacks to the main railway scenes, which I assume had rather more air-time in Part 1. However, the one thing that immediately jumped out at me, thus proving that you don't have to be a Freesat Genius to be a sad, albeit switched on old git, was that the TOPS numbering system wouldn't come in for almost another 10 years. Presumably they would have described the Class 40 as an 'English Electric Type 4' - trying to remember what we used to call diesels when I was a nerdy little trainspotter in the pre-TOPS era, all those years ago.

 

I managed not to spot the modern buses on the sea front at 'Torquay', and the issues concerning the road vehicles went completely over my head, to me, they all looked to be 'in period'...

[Rugd1022]

Quite agree Nidge - some of the overhead gantries were in place in that are by then (and apart from me seeing them a few weeks later when I passed by they are visible on some contemporaneous photos).

 

The signals were IBs (Sear Green I think?) and hence therefore 2 aspect as they were some distance in rear of Cheddington's signals.  I'm reasonably sure that the repeaters were ground level mounted but I might not be correct on that as there were quite a lot of ground mounted IB repeaters and colour light Distants on the WCML at that time and I might - at this distance in time - be confusing them with others.  I suspect they were 2 aspect - noting that the IB Homes were fairly modern signal heads - although they might at one time have had 3 aspect heads with the second yellow as a standby in case the main yellow failed.

 

No doubt Signal Engineer will put right any detail errors on my part - after all I was just a schoolboy who occasionally from 1963 onwards made trips Up & down the WCML and devoted my journey to watching modernisation progress.

 

Here are some more Google found images of the scene Mike, they seem to appear on Google at different times with different source names, I've seen one which has been credited to Getty Images, the Daily Mail and Mirror Group in the past...!

 

This one was taken from the last overbridge south of Leighton Buzzard looking south with the signal gantry at Sears Crossing showing two yellows on both the Up Slow and Up Fast line signals...

 

 

This one is taken from the same bridge looking the same way but from the end nearest the fast lines... Bridego Bridge is some way off in the distance...

 

 

This one is taken adjacent to the Up Slow looking south... the passing train is on the Up Fast...

 

 

And the view from the gantry itself looking back north to the aforementioned overbridge, showing the Up Fast signal head which Roger Cordrey had tampered with...

 

 

Edit : sorry meant to add - yes the signals were IBS. No forensic evidence was ever found here or down at Bridego Bridge which I find quite surprising, but the gang did leave evidence behind at Letherslade Farm.

[Arthur]

That may be because the work at the signal and the bridge went to plan, presumably including leaving behind no evidence, whereas the clear up at Letherslade Farm was botched. Brian Field, the bent solicitors clerk, along with a never caught accomplice, were tasked with clearing up the farm and then burning it to the ground. Something they failed to do.

[TheSignalEngineer]

The IB signals at Sears Crossing were installed around June 1961, so would have been relatively modern heads with double-filament lamps.. Prior to the signal box being demolished the signalling was as shown here http://www.signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=702

 

The Up Goods would have been removed when the IB signals were provided. I think it was where the OLE masts are situated in the first of the pictures posted by Rugd1022.