Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[Anotheran]

Thanks Chris for all the tips and links. I'll go through them all and find some suitable characters for NE.

[ChrisN]

Thanks Chris for all the tips and links. I'll go through them all and find some suitable characters for NE.

 

Neil,

I forgot Aiden Campbell. His characters are, um, individual, but a lot of fun.  I have his seated working class figures to go inside narrow gauge workman's coaches.

[ChrisN]

This week has seen some progress with the coach.  The seats have had a matt varnish and I have added oil lamp tops.  The Cambrian did not get gas train heating until after 1895.

 

 

I also have weathered the roof with a wash of thinned black.  Now this is not the modern day weathering for dirt.  My understanding from a discussion in the Pre-Grouping forum is that the white roof paint was lead and it reacted with the sulphur in the smoke to make the roofs grey.  I am not particularly happy with what I have done so far and will probably go over it again.  It might just be better to paint in grey.  Ideas?

 

I tried to check the colour of the oil tops and they either appear shiny or dark.  I decided to paint them aluminium which I expected to be brighter than this but in the end I am happy.

 

I have decided to leave the roof as it is and investigate Hob-e-tac and see if I can stick it using that.  Apparently it never goes dry so you can take things off again.  I have no idea if this will work.

This may not seem much for a week's work, but hey this is supposed to be fun and relaxing! 

 

What I have been doing is painting figures which is always incredibly slow, most of the time spent in agonising, I kid you not, over what shade of blue would go with the ladies dress.  However, we have some more models with colours hair, black shoes and gloves and flesh coloured hands..

 

My Humbrol Flesh was getting gloopy, (thick, viscous,) so I decided to buy some more.  It was the same, so I bought a third one.  Still the same.  It is usually thinned or it looks awful but I wondered if others have the same issue with it.

 

I had intended to take pictures of the figures I have finished but we are painting the lounge so I have not had time.  However, I am a miniscule closer to being able to do my tweed trial.  Three figures, three ways, let's hope they do not all end up like the coach roof.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[Jaz]

I tend to agree it does not look right......

but how to fix it?

if you are considering a repaint anyway...

I would trial some ideas.......

 

When painting consider the paint strokes running in the same direction as rain and water as it pours down, many vertical streaks especially by those 3/6 items on the roof.

also consider not just  SINGLE wash. But a very slightly different colour and rewash it another time or tow., overlapped thin washes tend to look better.

and perhaps if you have it some powder rubbed in...it can be washed off if you don't like it.....also adjust a 2nd and 3rd wash.....a touch of brown......and a touch of a different tone of grey all overlapped can give a nice dirty look. 

 

mix the humbrol with some white getting different tones and hopefully help thinning it. often mix in a little bit of dirty water, the slightly darker shade making decent shadows.

[ChrisN]

Jaz,

Thanks.  I have done another wash which I intended to be in grey.  I did it and realised I had done black again!  I have also put rain strips n.

 

 

The point is the roof is not dirty as such as it would have been cleaned regularly.  It would have been dirty at the end of a run or a day's work and I am not sure how often they were cleaned.  Quite often if they were express, and less often for local traffic.  The white roofs would have been painted with lead paint which reacted with the sulphur in the smoke and turned it grey.  (I sound clever but I was told that in a thread in Pre-Grouping.)  I am trying to get that effect.

 

This time I used the brush size I was going to use the first time before I changed my mind.  I will give it some grey as well I think.  I will have to spend time looking at pictures of coach roofs, unfortunately there are not many except in accidents!  If I cannot get it to the point where I am really happy, and I am happier than last week, I will repaint it white.

 

Thanks for your comments, they always give me something to think about.

[Anotheran]

Would the effects of the sulphur also end up streaked as the rain washed deposits down the roof, or would it have been more of an overal patina from the heated smoke as it passes over? If the latter then you'll have a nice complicated composition if you do want to add a dirt factor after the sulphur effect.

 

Sorry, not a helpful post, more of an interjected question as I'm fascinated by the fact that there is another factor affecting the look of paintwork for earier rolling stock that I'd not considered, or even heard of, before.

[ChrisN]

Would the effects of the sulphur also end up streaked as the rain washed deposits down the roof, or would it have been more of an overal patina from the heated smoke as it passes over? If the latter then you'll have a nice complicated composition if you do want to add a dirt factor after the sulphur effect.

 

Sorry, not a helpful post, more of an interjected question as I'm fascinated by the fact that there is another factor affecting the look of paintwork for earier rolling stock that I'd not considered, or even heard of, before.

 

Neil,

The answer is I do not know.  I will have to look carefully at the B&W photos of the era.  I know before the First World War cleaners were cheap and there was a lot more washing than later, and then a lot more washing than when BR started.  I think I really need an all over grey colour as that is what I think I have seen on the pictures but I need to check.

 

There is a thread in the Pre-Grouping Forum that discusses clean locos and rolling stock.

[Anotheran]

Thanks Chris, another forum for me to watch
Maybe I should just pick a single year (post grouping) and stick with that for NE

Edited August 28, 2014 by Anotheran

[billbedford]

Roofs were never cleaned. There are plenty of photos around of coaches being cleaned during WW1 since this was work that women took over during the war. The roofs should be pinter a flat matt mid grey.

 

I'm not at all certain that oil lamps were carried during the day. It is more likely that they were removed during daylight for filling and trimming then replaced for services that ran during the evening and early morning.

[ChrisN]

Thanks Chris, another forum for me to watch

Maybe I should just pick a single year (post grouping) and stick with that for NE

 

Neil,

You do not need to do everything at once so multiple time periods should not be an issue.

[ChrisN]

Roofs were never cleaned. There are plenty of photos around of coaches being cleaned during WW1 since this was work that women took over during the war. The roofs should be pinter a flat matt mid grey.

 

I'm not at all certain that oil lamps were carried during the day. It is more likely that they were removed during daylight for filling and trimming then replaced for services that ran during the evening and early morning.

 

Bill,

Thank you very much.  As you can see I am only really getting to grips with this.  I am being confused by a discussion about GWR white roofs and them reacting.  I was trying to get to the colour you said by starting white and washing but I will do what you say and start again with the paint.

 

My understanding is that they put the oil lamps in the holders as dusk fell, or rather I assume on trains at wherever they started from as it was getting dusk.  The tops would have still been there though so how would they look different externally?

[Jaz]

If you can't get a picture reference of that exact roof. Why not just grab a picture of a generic white / grey roof.....and see how they are weathered especially if they have similar products on the top. 

The thing is even when you can't reference the exact same thing. They all weather pretty much in  simile way.

 

Comparing grills from train to train, loco to loco....similarities.....

comparing any similar product.....the weathering is likely to have major similarities.

So if the roof has similar protuberances, or roof joins, or overall roof curve then there will be similarityies

 

I have to say though i like the way the paint has 'broken'

 

As for weathering....I tend to imitate the rain with these thin washes, overloading a paintbrush so the water finds its own route over the protuberances (sorry I don't know why they are) and letting the thinned paint dribble down under normal gravity....whilst the coach is set flat as though on a track (don't hold it in your hand at an angle tho will look very weird) , if using a paint brush makes you nervous, try a pipette / or a small string (even a sponge), do it on a plate of similar so you can catch and reuse the excess, keep ing it in a small jar allows you to do this over several models in order to match them and not waste lots of paint.Allow several to dry and do several more. 

 

Hope this helps.

[Jaz]

Also google painting weathering on military sites, as C&R says they are the masters of colour. And take this kind of stuff very seriously....and come up with some believable ideas. So say think of a lorry with a curved top and google it for comparison.

[billbedford]

My understanding is that they put the oil lamps in the holders as dusk fell, or rather I assume on trains at wherever they started from as it was getting dusk.  The tops would have still been there though so how would they look different externally?

 

The whole of the lamp top was remove and the hole left in the roof was filled with the wooden plug that you have modelled close to the lamp.

[Donw]

The whole of the lamp top was remove and the hole left in the roof was filled with the wooden plug that you have modelled close to the lamp.

 

This raises an interesting point. If the roof was never cleaned (as I have always believed) it would have become rather sooty I think so when the lamps were removed/replaced wouldn't the lampmans boots got rather sooty?

Incidently my view is the roof would have bcome a darkish grey fairly soon (says he with lots of white roofed GWR vehicles!) the colour looks lighter because of the angle of view.

Don

[billbedford]

Roofs were not particularly 'sooty. The grey colour came from a chemical reaction between sulphur in the air and the white lead pigment in the paint used for sealing the roof canvas. A similar reaction can be seen in many Victorian art painting where colours have darkened, even become black, despite the paint having been sealed with varnish.

[ChrisN]

The whole of the lamp top was remove and the hole left in the roof was filled with the wooden plug that you have modelled close to the lamp.

 

Bill,

Thank you very much.  This is most helpful.  I must admit I have never seen it on pictures of coaches but that is probably because I did not know what it was.

 

Just to make things clear, I have done a diagram

 

 

Is this correct?

 

or is it this? This is what appears to be from the photographs I have seen.

 

 

 

Now I have another question.  I have often seen things like this on the tops of coaches and I do not know what they are.  I think I have only seen them on Cambrian coaches but it may be that I have not looked very hard at others.

 

 

Are they Gas Tops, although I think they appear too early for that?

Edited January 7, 2016 by ChrisN

[asmay2002]

Just to make things clear, I have done a diagram

 

Is this correct?

 

Not quite.  The wide ring at the bottom of the lamp top is part of the roof so it stays where it is. The plug fits in the hole in the middle of it .  There was also usually a fine chain to stop the plug falling off the roof when it was not in use ( but may be too small to model)..

[buffalo]

...Is this correct?

 

No, the type of oil lamp top you have there is a permanently fixed cover and ventilator. The actual lamp and hole in the roof is inside this cover and is reached through a hinged lid. See, for example, here. Some railways apparently did have a form of oil lighting where the whole thing was removed, but the lamp covers did not look like that. I can't find an example right now, but here is a GNSR model example.

 

Your flatter example in the drawing looks more like an gas lamp top, though those used on the Cambrian look to me to have had a somewhat taller central part. The give away, of course, is that such coaches will have gas tanks underneath and piping to each lamp along the roof.

 

Nick

[ChrisN]

Not quite.  The wide ring at the bottom of the lamp top is part of the roof so it stays where it is. The plug fits in the hole in the middle of it .  There was also usually a fine chain to stop the plug falling off the roof when it was not in use ( but may be too small to model)..

 

Umm, hair, cotton, although not a chain.

 

No, the type of oil lamp top you have there is a permanently fixed cover and ventilator. The actual lamp and hole in the roof is inside this cover and is reached through a hinged lid. See, for example, here. Some railways apparently did have a form of oil lighting where the whole thing was removed, but the lamp covers did not look like that. I can't find an example right now, but here is a GNSR model example.

 

Your flatter example in the drawing looks more like an gas lamp top, though those used on the Cambrian look to me to have had a somewhat taller central part. The give away, of course, is that such coaches will have gas tanks underneath and piping to each lamp along the roof.

 

Nick

 

Thank you both. 

 

I have actually read that thread but probably confused myself by it.  I have had another look at C C Green Vol 1, Cambrian Album and there are definitely pots, and I think on at least one picture there were caps as well, although difficult to see.

 

Nick, you are right the centres are taller than my diagram.  There are some like this that would appear too early for gas, as the Cambrian had it quite late compared to others I think, but the photos themselves are not dated so could be being used to show something from an earlier period even though they contain later stock.

 

Interesting point about gas cylinders.  The Cambrian had gas tank waggons.  Now I assumed that they used these to fill up the cylinders but I am sure I read the other day they attached them to the train and did it that way.  I must go back and check.  It sounds interesting but it is too late for my period.

Edited August 31, 2014 by ChrisN

[Anotheran]

Chris, that first link from buffalo looks just like your roof, with the lamp holders and bungs all present. Even the mottling on the roof is similar. If you can find something to represent the chain and handle I think you'd be pretty much on perfection. Maybe you could use thin fuse wire for the chain to get it to lie correctly. I think hair or cotton would be too elastic at that short length to fall convincingly.

[ChrisN]

Chris, that first link from buffalo looks just like your roof, with the lamp holders and bungs all present. Even the mottling on the roof is similar. If you can find something to represent the chain and handle I think you'd be pretty much on perfection. Maybe you could use thin fuse wire for the chain to get it to lie correctly. I think hair or cotton would be too elastic at that short length to fall convincingly.

 

Neil Thanks,

I have two problems with that picture though.  This one has the lamps in so the bungs are out.  The other is that the roof is painted in nice 21st century white paint, not 19th century white(lead) paint.  What I am going to do though is make another roof- remember you heard it here first, (I was going to do it and keep it as a surprise), and only put the oil tops on.  This way I could swop them over even though I will probably not light the coach.  (No, not going there, no, I said no.    No.  Well, maybe sometime, perhaps.   )

 

I will repaint it though as all the pictures I have of roofs show them to be an all over dark grey.  If Bill says mid grey I will go with that.  I did try to make it look a bit different and maybe, just maybe I will finish the present one with a wash of grey.

[Anotheran]

Now Chris... you really can't model it with the lamps in and not light it. You can't have it both ways sir... either the lamps are there and lit, or they are out and unlit... 

[ChrisN]

Now Chris... you really can't model it with the lamps in and not light it. You can't have it both ways sir... either the lamps are there and lit, or they are out and unlit... 

 

Neil,

Some days they just never got round to taking them out....     

 

I think it will be a long term project as I really would like to get this finished to a point that I could run it.  I will then at least have one semi-authentic coach.

[ChrisN]

It may have appeared that I have not been doing much modelling.  That is because, actually I have not.  The wife wanted a new carpet, (I will not say I got a new carpet for the wife, good swop really), so I have been moving things around and generally sorting things out.  However, I have been doing a few things.

 

So this week is back to the little people.  They do not look that wonderful as 1) they are mostly work in progress, and 2) even when I can see what is wrong with them blowing them up to 3 or 4 times the size makes them look worse.

 

The first three are for the 'Tweed' trial.  They all have been painted with Humbrol 29 and I have three Tamiya semi transparent paints, a red, a green and a yellow to paint over it.

 

First up is Dr Higgins.  He is Headmaster of the Lord Darnley Boy's School in Traeth Mawr, and if someone produces teenage Edwardians then the school depicted might be his and not the girl's school.  He is a Dart figure, but in trying to remove his hat I removed his head, so replaced it with someone else's.  His jacket is a medium size so will be painted with stripes of the three colours.

 

 

I have done his hair with a wash of black so hopefully it looks black/grey.  I also drilled through his hands to make them not like blocks of metal, and as you see the left hand one in the picture, his right, is fine, but the other one is not so good.

 

The second is Constance, who may be another teacher which is why her head is not painted.  I tried very hard to lengthen her dress with DAS clay, and spent ages with the side of a round pointing tool making the dents in the folds of the original match the extension, and as you see it has completely failed and looks awful.  I did not notice until I took the picture.  She has a tweed suit and will be painted using the wife's an old toothbrush.

 

 

She also appears to have been on the sherry.

 

Finally, someone not even in period.  He is obviously a scientist due to his lack of taste in clothing.  He will also need some more painting.  He will be given washes of each colour. 

 

 

Again I did his hair using a wash hoping that the grey would show through.

 

Had enough yet?

 

Last two waiting for final touch up and matt varnish.

 

This is Edwina Plunkett, a modified Dart Casting figure.  Skirt from DAS again.  It does not look very good from this angle but she is probably going into a coach.  Hat brim is Palstikard and the top is DAS.  She has two ribbons at the back made from paper which was dragged through the paint on the lid of the tin once opened, attached using the wet paint and then when dry superglued.

 

 

 

Finally, the fiancé of the man who owns Ty Mawr, the big house up the valley.  I have noticed things I need to do but am not sure if I need to tidy up the line at the bottom of the skirt; does leaving it rough make it look more like material?

 

 

 

If you have read this far wanting to know about the coach, sorry.  I have made some progress but not a lot.  Next update probably will be on that.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.