Flooding of the railway on the Somerset Levels

[Donw]

A small stream draining off exmoor runs acoss the top of our garden. Normally it runs clear but with heavy rain and storms it is a nice reddy brown colour full of mud. The crown estates have been cutting trees up on the moor so it is probably muddier than usual. Where it overflowed and ran through the garage it left a nice layer of silt.

Don

[Captain Kernow]

Happy to say that the Atlelney line at Curry Road was again pumped out last night, and I understand that we are back to normal line speed and signalling between Cogload Jct and Castle Cary etc. again. I just hope that this can be kept up during the next bouts of heavy rain...

[jonny777]

"Beware the tides of March!" I'm sure someone famous said something like that.....

 

I consulted the high tide tables and found that the highest March tide (on the 3rd) was only very marginally higher than the ones earlier in February, so my initial doom-mongering seems to be somewhat misplaced.

[bike2steam]

With respect to 'mod 6', I find the comparisons between the Somerset Levels, and Norfolk Broads laughable , as both face totally different conditions, ie  prevailing winds, tidal fluctuation, surge, and range etc.

[Mod6]

Agree that it's not relevant to this topic, and thanks.

 

The Dawlish topic has been locked apart from relevant updates from Captain Kernow etc.  If you want to stop the same happening here ...

[Kenton]

 

Agree that it's not relevant to this topic, and thanks.

 

Yet for some reason posts on the the Brighton "Daddy long-legs" (as an example) are relevant?

 

Actually everything is interesting including much of what was being discussed on the (now locked) Dawlish thread. Both topics have attracted considerable and slightly off-topic thoughts on sea wall construction and drainage options. While we perhaps should allow CK and his associate experts to get on with their well managed tasks in hand the locking down of a free discussion around the subject is out of spirit of the forum.

 

The Dawlish topic was by and large steering clear of the politics and so far so has this topic.

 

This and the Dawlish topic is very stimulating and impacts on the lives of many RMWeb members. Although this is in a Forum for UK prototype and not Wheeltappers reserving it simply for CK's excellent input of "on the ground" reports will make it very sterile.

[edcayton]

Agree with Kenton. A forum is a place for discussion. This part of RMWeb is headed "UK prototype discussions (not questions)".  Information from insiders can come in a press release.

 

Ed

[Rob F]

Agree with Kenton. A forum is a place for discussion. This part of RMWeb is headed "UK prototype discussions (not questions)".  Information from insiders can come in a press release.

 

Ed

Whilst I agree with the sentiment above I feel it could be misconstrued as suggesting that input from those 'in the know' is unwelcome. I am sure this is not what Ed meant and, to me, the input from NR staff on this and the Dawlish thread has been absolutely fascinating and invaluable.

 

I too do not understand the decision to lock the Dawlish thread. Nothing that was being said was insulting, derogatory or overtly political. It was just doing what discussions do , both online and face to face, which is to circulate around the core issue but bring in many other aspects and facets as the topic evolves. That is what make a conversation over a pint stimulating and interesting and, for me, the same applies to discussions here with the added advantage of more participants and a more diverse range of opinions and knowledge. Judging by the number of people who agreed with the decision to lock the Dawlish thread I appreciate I am probably in a minority but I can live with that. Life would be very boring if we all agreed with each other all the time!

 

ROB

[Mod6]

 Yet for some reason posts on the the Brighton "Daddy long-legs" (as an example) are relevant?

 

Actually everything is interesting including much of what was being discussed on the (now locked) Dawlish thread. Both topics have attracted considerable and slightly off-topic thoughts on sea wall construction and drainage options. While we perhaps should allow CK and his associate experts to get on with their well managed tasks in hand the locking down of a free discussion around the subject is out of spirit of the forum.

 

The Dawlish topic was by and large steering clear of the politics and so far so has this topic.

 

This and the Dawlish topic is very stimulating and impacts on the lives of many RMWeb members. Although this is in a Forum for UK prototype and not Wheeltappers reserving it simply for CK's excellent input of "on the ground" reports will make it very sterile.

 

Daddy Long Legs now split off into its own topic.

 

Whilst everything might be interesting it may not be relevant.  The Dawlish topic was locked because the same arguments and comments (often based on speculation rather than fact) were being repeated again and again.  If you want to talk about drainage and flooding in general then start a new topic.

 

You are not seeing much in the way of political posts because they have been removed.

 

Agree with Kenton. A forum is a place for discussion. This part of RMWeb is headed "UK prototype discussions (not questions)".  Information from insiders can come in a press release.

 

Ed

 

And this topic is called 'Flooding of the railway on the Somerset Levels'.  It will remain open if posts are relevant to that. 

[Kenton]

 

Daddy Long Legs now split off into its own topic.

 

Just to note that I was just using that as an example simply as it was the post prior to my last post. There were several other Off Topic posts on this and the other thread.

 

You are not seeing much in the way of political posts because they have been removed.

 

I thank you for that as politics, although obviously linked to these discussions, simply inflames other posters and is well done without.

 

Perhaps we would be better confining and restricting this topic specifically to Flooding on the railway and not wander off on the Flooding on the Somerset Levels. As I have said the folk at NR seem to know what they are doing, and that is reassuring to see.

[scotcent]

Full  data  on  predicted  tidal  heights  can  be  found  on  http://www.ntslf.org/    There  is  also  interesting  historical  data  on  actual  heights  attained.  Storm  surges  are  caused  by  low  barometric  pressure  (of  which  we've  had  rather  a  lot  recently),  and  also  by  the  effect  of  the  wind  blowing  the  water  into  estuaries  and  inlets  (The  1952  North  sea  inundation  was  a  particular  combination  of  these  factors).

 

Allan  F

[BR(S)]

January 8th to February 10th comparisons of flooded areas here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-26157538

[Captain Kernow]

Good question, Vincent, not sure if we'll ever get a straight answer to that, but hopefully the usefulness of those pumps will be made very clear to everyone now that they're working... If I were a Dutch Pump Salesperson, I might be booking a ticket to the UK right now...

[PhilJ W]

Earlier this week they showed a weather map for for the whole of Europe. They seem to be copping it far more than us in places such as the Bay of Biscay and the western coasts of Iberia. I just wonder how they are coping with the storms?

[The Stationmaster]

 Yet for some reason posts on the the Brighton "Daddy long-legs" (as an example) are relevant?

 

Actually everything is interesting including much of what was being discussed on the (now locked) Dawlish thread. Both topics have attracted considerable and slightly off-topic thoughts on sea wall construction and drainage options. While we perhaps should allow CK and his associate experts to get on with their well managed tasks in hand the locking down of a free discussion around the subject is out of spirit of the forum.

 

The Dawlish topic was by and large steering clear of the politics and so far so has this topic.

 

This and the Dawlish topic is very stimulating and impacts on the lives of many RMWeb members. Although this is in a Forum for UK prototype and not Wheeltappers reserving it simply for CK's excellent input of "on the ground" reports will make it very sterile.

I agree with you in many respects Kenton but the unfortunate fact was that the Dawlish thread had become, ceased to be, and again became, a rotatiing discussion about the viability and suitability of various alternative routes after they had all been fairly extensively examined at least twice - in fact I think we were well into the fifth rotation/debate/whatever you care to call it (and with little or nothing added to earlier discussion) when Mod 6 dropped the handle on it.

 

So he was hardly stifling debate but more dealing with a matter of repetition, and it was taking far more than just a minute to keep up with it.

[Talltim]

To my mind the Somerset Levels are a hard problem to fix than Dawlish, from a railway point of view. Dawlish is a fairly localised problem, fixed by building better or diverting, depending on money and political will. What do you do about the Levels, long term? Build higher embankments?

[Glorious NSE]

To my mind the Somerset Levels are a hard problem to fix than Dawlish, from a railway point of view. Dawlish is a fairly localised problem, fixed by building better or diverting, depending on money and political will. What do you do about the Levels, long term? Build higher embankments?

 

Given the railway flooded doesn't flood normally in even extreme conditions (see CK's comments up-thread) - a long hard look at how the area has been managed?

[Penlan]

........ What do you do about the Levels, long term? Build higher embankments?

The problem with higher embankments is the width too. 

Because basically the topsoil level is not very thick and under that is a fluid soil.

To explain - I worked on the M5 construction in the early 70's on the part right across the levels.

The large earth moving lorries, up to 50 tons loaded, were not allowed on the levels, but had to start from the Puriton outcrop offloading the limestone we dug out, 1.5 million cube metres of limestone was taken from the end of that hill, where Junction 23 is now.

Not so obvious these days is the 'bump' between the motorway on the levels and the various bridge (crossing the various 'drains') concrete base edges.   I recall just before the Motorway opened we had a heavy transport come along taking a boiler down to the west somewhere, you could see the motorway deflecting downwards (and recovering afterwards) as it travelled along - I was one of the party of surveyors recording the alignment variations....

The construction depth of the Haul Road was about 2 - 3 metres deep of limestone from Puriton hill it and extended a long way out from the edge of the motorway to spread the load onto the existing top soil.   This was then topped off with about 2 metres of PFA, brought into a special railway siding near Highbridge - There's photo's of this somewhere on RMWeb, years ago.

 

Even the private siding that went over the M5 to the Ordnance factory had to have a wider than normal base and most of the fill was PFA  we also had to supply more powerful engines to the MoD as their existing ones couldn't get up the slope......

 

I'm sure Railtrack would like to do this? but the cost for a once in say 50 year incident would be ........ I'm sure there's more urgent spending plans.   Any rail bridges across the 'drains' would need concrete bases etc., the edges, and as on the motorway, would create a potential for vertical misalignment.....

 

Although not the same, but the area between Acle and Gt Yarmouth has similar properties, and as is probably known, the rail track across there is built up on a reed bed, again to spread the load.  When I was in Norfolk on a design team for both the Kings Lynn Southern Bypass and Acle Bypass we had data that showed that over  30 metres of tarmac had been laid at the edge of Acle on the first bit / join to the A47 road across the levels towards Gt Yarmouth since the 1930's.  This is were it had sunk into the levels, there was a gap between the solid Acle hill and the reed etc., road base.

I was also part of the team that designed the embankments for Kings Lynn southern Bypass, they are very wide around were the A47, A149 and A10 meet to spread the load, we did both various widths to support a certain height of material and slip circles, it slipped Christmas Eve when I was on call........ so I remember it well.

 

So, higher embankment for the railway, I doubt it, but perhaps CK has better info than I.

[Captain Kernow]

So, higher embankment for the railway, I doubt it, but perhaps CK has better info than I.

Who knows, Sandy?! First we need to get in there and inspect it safely when the water has gone down a bit. The seriousness of this flooding will no doubt be subject to a very detailed review, so we'll see what comes out of that.

[Rivercider]

...

 

I'm sure Railtrack would like to do this? but the cost for a once in say 50 year incident would be ........ I'm sure there's more urgent spending plans.  ....................

 

............

 

So, higher embankment for the railway, I doubt it, but perhaps CK has better info than I.

 

 

The stretch immediately affected seems to be between from just south of the overbridge at Fordgate to just north of the overbridge at Bankland Farm,

a distance of just under 2 miles, the rest of the route in that area seems to be above the 5m contour line.

 

I wonder if raising the track by just a foot, (by adding deeper ballast?) would be practical or useful. 

The line need not be raised at either overbridge as the line is already higher.

The electrics will need replacing anyway, so the electrical cabinets could all be raised up on stilts/platforms, as has already been done

in the Cowley Bridge area near Exeter as a response to repeated flooding there.

This would mean that if he line were closed temporarily services could resume much quicker.

 

I have travelled this route for over 40 years and although this is the first instance of flooding near Bridgwater there have been warning signs.

Over the last 20 years or so I have seen flooding west of Cogload Junction albeit at a distance from the railway,

but in the last 10 years there have been several years where that flooding of the Curry Moor has been significant, and widespread. 

On the site of the current flooding I have seen individual fields flooded before over the years, but never large areas.

In more recent years the flooding of the North Moor has become much more noticeable.

As I posted earlier in this thread the floods of 2012 were deep enough and widespread enough for large plastic wrapped

bales of hay to be afloat and driven by the winds to end up stranded against the upside boundary fence for a long stretch.

 

Of course most of the answers will be outside the control of Network Rail

 

cheers

[t-b-g]

Where I live is one of the areas that was drained by those brilliant Dutch engineers hundreds of years ago.

 

Sadly, their great work in setting up a network of drainage ditches has been largely undone in recent years by the lack of regular clearance of the ditches. Gangs of water board workers used to spend the whole summer cutting back weeds and clearing the channels of any debris or blockages. I am not talking about dredging or ruining environments, just keeping what is there in good condition.

 

This work just doesn't happen now, so the first time it rains, instead of draining away over a great network of ditches and dykes, the water goes straight into the local river, which very quickly bursts its banks and we now have a new semi permanent (there most of the year and sometimes all year round) lake on what was fertile and well drained pasture land.

 

All the people who used to do this work are no longer employed in the water industry and were not replaced and it is not really in the interests of the water companies to employ lots of people and equipment to do this work. It adds to their costs but gives them no financial return. The costs of the problems that arise will not come out of the water companies. It will come from us, via higher insurance premiums.

 

I am a bit cynical about the role of insurance companies too. Their spokespeople try to make out that they are our friends, trying to do the best that they can to help us. But they are really there to get us to pay as much as they can possibly get out of us for our insurance. they will put premiums up and then keep them high because they will say that the risk of a problem has increased, so they actually do very nicely out of a problem like the present one. One spokesman was already going on about a scheme to allow them to insure properties that are likely to flood by putting the premiums up for everybody, so the rest of us will be paying more to subsidise properties built on flood planes with inadequate drainage. I am sure they will do very nicely out of it all.

 

Although I have never been in a property that has flooded, I have some good friends who have and the people affected have my utmost sympathy.

 

Tony

[The Stationmaster]

To my mind the Somerset Levels are a hard problem to fix than Dawlish, from a railway point of view. Dawlish is a fairly localised problem, fixed by building better or diverting, depending on money and political will. What do you do about the Levels, long term? Build higher embankments?

 

 

Given the railway flooded doesn't flood normally in even extreme conditions (see CK's comments up-thread) - a long hard look at how the area has been managed?

 

 

The simple answer with the levels is that it is a landscape wholly dependent on managed drainage and the EA has not done that since it took over.  there would undoubtedly still be bad flooding there but it would not be as bad if the dredging and management of the drainage system had been carried out as i should have been - at less cost than the EA's advertising budget.

 

As far as the railway beyond Bridgwater is concerned the proper answer is, again, if the drainage of the Levels had been managed it probably wouldn't have been so badly threatened and the costs of dealing with it - once the water drops - should in my view come out of the EA's budget and not from NR.

 

I saw that. Someone needs to remind celebrities that fame doesnt come with a free helping of insight or IQ points ...

 

The Beeb website has that clip available to view online, with the delightfully ambiguous title "'They haven't a clue' - Daniels and McGee"

 

Paul Daniels is hardly in a situation of his own making and he talked a lot of sense although I don't agree with all of it.  When he built his present house he originally applied for Planning Permission to build it on top of stilts but the local council rejected that so instead - and having been flooded out previously - he planned and had installed a very sophisticated system of barriers around the house plus considerable pumping capacity and thus far it has worked, the problem (as he said on tv last night) is getting to and from the house.

 

The area where I disagree is regarding dredging (on the Thames) which is very different from the Somerset Levels as the Thames flooding is occurring on flood plain and that is what nature put it there for, and that is what it has always done when the river rises high enough.  The place shown in the clip linked above is Mill Meadows at Henley plus a long shot of one of the cottages on a nearby island and both have flooded before, in fact in 1963 the water there was considerably higher than it has been in any recent floods and the island used to flood almost every year.  All dredging (and there never used to be much in this area anyway) would do is get the water downstream quicker to flood somewhere else.

 

Sorry for diverting off the Somerset Levels but as the point was raised I think it was only right to set Paul Daniels' situation in its rightful context.

[flapland]

Slightly off topic I know.

 

New Royal Railway Tractor to replace Royal Train.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26191532

[Pete 75C]

Slightly off topic I know.

 

New Royal Railway Tractor to replace Royal Train.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26191532

 

I'd always wondered how many people it took to fill a sandbag... 2 Royals and a dozen Royal Protection Officers to watch over them. Fascinating!

[Penlan]

Who knows, Sandy?! First we need to get in there and inspect it safely when the water has gone down a bit. The seriousness of this flooding will no doubt be subject to a very detailed review, so we'll see what comes out of that.

Should we wait though for the re-dredging of the existing 'drains', those that allegedly haven't been touched for 20+ years.   Then Network Rail / Railtrack or whatever it all is now having to do anything....