How do you stop a freight without a brakevan?

[Del]

One of the layout designs that I keep ruminating on is a very rundown tramway, á la Selsey or Wantage. I know the Wantage didn't operate with brakevans, and I don't believe the Selsey did either.

So how did they stop freight trains? Was it simply by using the loco brake?

 

[LMS2968]

Even with a brake van, most of the stopping power was provided by the loco. A twenty ton van's handbrake wasn't that effective in bringing 600 to 700 tons of goods train to a stand!

[PhilH]

Even with a brake van, most of the stopping power was provided by the loco. A twenty ton van's handbrake wasn't that effective in bringing 600 to 700 tons of goods train to a stand!

 

Unfortunately a loco isn't very good at stopping a train either.

[LMS2968]

It would usually manage it eventually. If you had a 37 you were in with a chance; if you had a 40, might as well make the tea while you're waiting!

[PhilH]

Being a steam man I'm thinking more unfitted coal trains with pannier tanks...

[Del]

The locos and stock would be a small 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 tank, and no more than four or five four-wheel opens or vans.

This image shows a perfect example: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FY-t533tWog/UYpUaBtUylI/AAAAAAAAu48/Gm2TNhG_7Cg/s1600/freight.jpg

[Ian Smeeton]

Stop blocks are often useful:

 

see here: http://becausetheyrethere.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/corrour-23.jpg

 

regards

 

Ian

[The Stationmaster]

Even with a brake van, most of the stopping power was provided by the loco. A twenty ton van's handbrake wasn't that effective in bringing 600 to 700 tons of goods train to a stand!

Correction - most of the stopping power in certain circumstances was in the wagons, that was where the weight was.  Thus on steep descending gradients the bulk of the brake force came from the pinned down handbrakes on the wagons and doing the job properly the loco pulled against the braking force of the wagons so theoretically if the loco stopped lulling the train would stop.  In practice of course it didn't always work like that and runaways could, and did, occur and sometimes they ended in tears but most of the time they ended in 'phew'.

 

But all the time in pre-diesel days it was the effort of the loco versus the weight of the train and provided momentum didn't build up too high shutting off the power was the first stage of braking as the weight of the train took over.  The problem with diesels was that it was far easier to develop the momentum when it wasn't needed - hence things like increased vacuum heads and brake tenders to help with braking. 

[edcayton]

The OP was about trains without a brake van. Presumably also without a guard ? or would he ride on the loco?  To be fair , I don't think the Wantage line had much in the way of gradients.

 

Ed

 

edit for extraneous also

[LMS2968]

Correction - most of the stopping power in certain circumstances was in the wagons, that was where the weight was.  Thus on steep descending gradients the bulk of the brake force came from the pinned down handbrakes on the wagons and doing the job properly the loco pulled against the braking force of the wagons so theoretically if the loco stopped lulling the train would stop.  In practice of course it didn't always work like that and runaways could, and did, occur and sometimes they ended in tears but most of the time they ended in 'phew'.

I concede the point, but to be fair, Stop And Pin Down was required in only a few places. My own experience of it was mostly Miles Platting bank in Manchester, which still had the stop board long after tfully fitteds became the norm. Another one was the old St Helens & Runcorn Gap line down to Widnes, which was always known as 'The Clock Face line', which was 1 in 39 for a short distance, if memory serves, although I don't remember pinning down on that one.

[peanuts]

I concede the point, but to be fair, Stop And Pin Down was required in only a few places. My own experience of it was mostly Miles Platting bank in Manchester, which still had the stop board long after tfully fitteds became the norm. Another one was the old St Helens & Runcorn Gap line down to Widnes, which was always known as 'The Clock Face line', which was 1 in 39 for a short distance, if memory serves, although I don't remember pinning down on that one.

did you ever have to contend with the 1 in 27 werneth bank ?

[LMS2968]

No, I never went to Oldham, and I'm not sure the bank was still open in my time. I didn't work Chequerbent either, which I think was one of Warrington's jobs.

[Boris]

I concede the point, but to be fair, Stop And Pin Down was required in only a few places. My own experience of it was mostly Miles Platting bank in Manchester, which still had the stop board long after tfully fitteds became the norm. Another one was the old St Helens & Runcorn Gap line down to Widnes, which was always known as 'The Clock Face line', which was 1 in 39 for a short distance, if memory serves, although I don't remember pinning down on that one.

I was more common than people think, I reckon we had 3-4 AWB boards in my local area.  My 1937 SA lists them all but I can't find it at the moment!

[PhilJ W]

The OP was about trains without a brake van. Presumably also without a guard ? or would he ride on the loco?  To be fair , I don't think the Wantage line had much in the way of gradients.

 

Ed

 

edit for extraneous also

The Wantage line did employ shunter/guards, in some of the photographs of the line he can be seen riding his bike alongside the train.

[Kookaburra]

In steam days and beyond the Guard was incharge of the train unless the train was within Station Limits ( being between the Home Arrival and Home Departure / Starter / Advanced starter depending on the location ) when the Guard worked under the direction of the Stationmaster.

 

In instances where the train was shunting at a siding not directly under the control of the Stationmaster then the Guard was also the Shunter unless a Shunter was also accompanying the train.

 

Where unbraked vehicles were involved train crews needed to be vigilant and careful to avoid an accident. What is probably not appreciated by most people is how dangerous Shunting Yards could be, and in larger yards a serious injury was at least a weekly event. Hence the desire to minimise shunting as much as possible. 

 

I used to work with two Signalman who were injured in shunting accidents, one who lost a thumb and another who lost a leg and both confirmed just how dangerous shunting could be.

[The Stationmaster]

In steam days and beyond the Guard was incharge of the train unless the train was within Station Limits ( being between the Home Arrival and Home Departure / Starter / Advanced starter depending on the location ) when the Guard worked under the direction of the Stationmaster.

 

In instances where the train was shunting at a siding not directly under the control of the Stationmaster then the Guard was also the Shunter unless a Shunter was also accompanying the train.

 

Where unbraked vehicles were involved train crews needed to be vigilant and careful to avoid an accident. What is probably not appreciated by most people is how dangerous Shunting Yards could be, and in larger yards a serious injury was at least a weekly event. Hence the desire to minimise shunting as much as possible. 

 

I used to work with two Signalman who were injured in shunting accidents, one who lost a thumb and another who lost a leg and both confirmed just how dangerous shunting could be.

Alas your first point is not correct - the Guard always remained in charge of his train when it was on a running line (or loop come to that) and was in charge of it as well when entering or leaving a yard and indeed when it was ready to leave as he gave the signal that the train was ready to start.  Normally shunting within Station Limits would be under the control of the Signalman and Shunter (or the Guard if there was no Shunter).

 

Shunting yards could indeed be dangerous but in my experience of them they were considerably less dangerous than the picture you portray - over the years I was involved with three busy yards - two freight and the other a very large passenger yard - and I can't recall that we ever had a serious injury involving a member of the shunting staff.  Odd cuts and bruises did sometimes happen - but not very frequently and rarely enough to cause absence from duty.  Yes, I agree that shunting was dangerous and staff injuries did happen, no doubt of that, but not, in my direct experience (or BR's personal accident statistics) at the sort of frequency you suggest.

[jamie92208]

On my current project I have to deal with several types of trip freights that all originate to the east of the station and most terminate on the other side.  The layout didn't ahve run round loops on two of the destinations and I wondered the same thing.   I then spent a morning with a couple of retired loco men who answered the question.  They were allowed to propel throug the station with a modified tail lamp on the front wagon.  This hung from the buffer shank and the coupling hook and 3 or 4 of them resided in the yard office at Ladies walk sidings.  The shunter/gaurd rode on the footplate until they got into the respective yard.  This method was then used for the goods yard (West of the station) and the coal yard, just east of the platforms.  Apaprently there was something in the sectional appendix but I haven't located one of those yet.  They then relied solely on the loco brake but the speed was low.

 

Jamie

[PenrithBeacon]

did you ever have to contend with the 1 in 27 werneth bank ?

I went up it just before it closed as a passenger in a dmu. It got to the top but it was a struggle!

 

Regards

[Rivercider]

On my current project I have to deal with several types of trip freights that all originate to the east of the station and most terminate on the other side.  The layout didn't ahve run round loops on two of the destinations and I wondered the same thing.   I then spent a morning with a couple of retired loco men who answered the question.  They were allowed to propel throug the station with a modified tail lamp on the front wagon.  This hung from the buffer shank and the coupling hook and 3 or 4 of them resided in the yard office at Ladies walk sidings.  The shunter/gaurd rode on the footplate until they got into the respective yard.  This method was then used for the goods yard (West of the station) and the coal yard, just east of the platforms.  Apaprently there was something in the sectional appendix but I haven't located one of those yet.  They then relied solely on the loco brake but the speed was low.

 

Jamie

I have a Sectional Appendix for the West of England Division dated June 1980.

Table H refers to locations where vehicles may be worked without a brake van in the rear,

H.1 for freight stock, H.2 for  coaching stock.

There were about 8 pairs of locations for freight stock, and passenger stock where it was permitted.

 

The instructions are much as you suggest, though a brake van or other suitable vehicle should be marshalled as near the rear as possible

for the person in charge to ride on, otherwise he rides on the locomotive.

A tail signal must be carried on the last vehicle.

 

cheers

[IWCR]

Workings  with  unbraked  wagons  without  a  brake  van  wernt  uncommon  but  would  be  confined  to  very  specifc  locations  and  worked  under  a  local  instruction.  These  would  be  over  relativiley  short  distances   and  would  likely  serve  an  industrial  siding  or  similar  beyond  station  limits.  This  could  well  be  with  the  wagons  being  propelled  by  the  loco  if  the  need  was  to  serve  a  facing  siding.  Any  significant  gradients  would  also  be  considered  with  the  loco  then  being  at  the  downhill  end  to  prevent  any  risk  of  a  runaway.

For  example  on  the  Isle  of  Wight  such  working  was  permitted  from:

Medina  Wharf  to  Cowes,  (propelling,  rising  gradient  towards  Cowes,  facing  siding  on  arrival)

Newport  to  Gunville  Siding,   (propelling,  rising  gradient  towards  Gunville,  facing  siding  on  arrival)

Ryde  St  Johns  to  Ryde  Gas  Works,  (loco  leading,  falling  gradient  towards  works,  trailing  siding  on  arrival).

The  longest  of  these  was  not  much  more  than  1  mile.

 

Pete

[Boris]

In this area we had a local instruction (and even a bell code) for a wagon being pulled down the main running line by a horse!  So yes it did definitely happen.

 

Again over a short distance though.

[The Stationmaster]

There was a lovely exception which used to be in the Appendix that it was permissible to work an unfitted wagon (just the one) without a brakevan over any running line between signalboxes for the sole purpose of delivering signalbox stores or coal provided that the distance between the signalboxes concerned was less than one mile.  (I believe that was one circumstance for which 'the elastic mile' was invented.)

[byron]

In this area we had a local instruction (and even a bell code) for a wagon being pulled down the main running line by a horse!  So yes it did definitely happen.

 

Again over a short distance though.

Nay (neigh?)

[Southernman46]

With a Class 31, regrettably for the driver of 31150, whom ISTR had no opportunity to escape his cab as the runway wagons emerged from Manton tunnel on a falling gradient almost immediately in front of him.

 

This was one of those accidents that has always left an impression on me - the elimination of unfitted trains on BR was not before time.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/6057797333/

[jamie92208]

That wasn't uncommon but fortunately most outcomes were not as serious as that.  When I modelled Long Preston, which is at the low point on the Settle Carlisle between the Long Drag and the ascent to Bell Busk, I was told by a retired railwayman that runaways had occurred quite frequently.  The standard procedure was to let them run if the line was clear and they would come through Long Preston very fast.  The Gaurds brake was totally ineffective.  They would run out of momentum before Bell Busk and then come back the other way and get back up to near Settle.  Eventually after several passes they would come to a stand at Long Preston.

 

Jamie