Broadway Clive Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Whilst I understand the point you're making and have sympathies for those that still use older and less sophisticated controllers, the fitting of coreless motors has to be a forward step. With the visual improvements to detail and accuracy that modern design and production techniques have brought to models over the last couple of decades surely we should expect the same improvements to the unseen prime mover and drive train. I've never heard of anybody wanting to fit an engine from a Model T into a Ford Focus. The Gaugemaster feedback controllers and the Hornby HM2000 feedback controller are still currently in production but unsuitable for this model. With similar coreless motors to this selling for less than 50p I'd suggest cost and size are the reason its used, and that it's suitability for analogue control is very limited. I dont imagine many DCC users would be happy to dispense with feedback would they? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 The Gaugemaster feedback controllers and the Hornby HM2000 feedback controller are still currently in production but unsuitable for this model. With similar coreless motors to this selling for less than 50p I'd suggest cost and size are the reason its used, and that it's suitability for analogue control is very limited. I dont imagine many DCC users would be happy to dispense with feedback would they? If it's any help in clarifying things regarding the use of newer controllers and the non use of electronic track cleaners, i understand (because i've seen them) that the latest USTC tank loco instructions from Bachmann do not recommend feedback controllers or electronic track cleaners. cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PMP Posted October 5, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 5, 2016 The info regarding the Bachmann/MR dock tank is correct regarding the instructions, but apart from that the information is a bit of a red herring. Both EP and production models of the dock tank have a traditional 3 pole open frame motor that is fine with older controllers including feedback. Don't know about rail cleaners as I've never used one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 The Gaugemaster feedback controllers and the Hornby HM2000 feedback controller are still currently in production but unsuitable for this model. I did say I sympathise with those that use older and less sophisticated controllers. The controllers you mention whilst still available are very capable and probably bullet proof but they still can trace their technological lineage back a couple of decades and probably more. There are still plenty of exhibition layouts out there and probably a good few at home were one needs to select different modes on the controller dependent on what motor is powering the loco currently being controlled. No pun intended. With similar coreless motors to this selling for less than 50p I'd suggest cost and size are the reason its used, and that it's suitability for analogue control is very limited. That may well be the case but that is a commercial decision of DJM. I guess time will tell whether the decision to use a coreless motor improves or decreases sales . Also that's if the motors that are currently selling "for less than 50p" are to an identical specification than those fitted in the J94? The cheapest I've bought them at is 67p. I've now got a nice little stash to carry out some destructive testing. Is there anybody out there that uses feedback control with the Bachmann trams using these motors that can comment? I can't remember if DJ has stated that the J94 is suitable or not for use with Feedback controllers and HF track cleaners? I dont imagine many DCC users would be happy to dispense with feedback would they? Some have too when using twin motored locos but that is a simple job involving setting the CV's for that individual loco. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gismorail Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 If it's any help in clarifying things regarding the use of newer controllers and the non use of electronic track cleaners, i understand (because i've seen them) that the latest USTC tank loco instructions from Bachmann do not recommend feedback controllers or electronic track cleaners. cheers Dave We were talking about just this at a large show last weekend and concluded that things move on and older equipment becomes obsolete. .... the conclusion was that in the coming years DCC will be the same as wirless control takes over Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Not Captain Kernow Posted October 6, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 6, 2016 The Gaugemaster feedback controllers and the Hornby HM2000 feedback controller are still currently in production but unsuitable for this model. With similar coreless motors to this selling for less than 50p I'd suggest cost and size are the reason its used, and that it's suitability for analogue control is very limited. I dont imagine many DCC users would be happy to dispense with feedback would they? The Hornby HM2000 is NOT a feedback controller. http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/hm2000-power-controller.html?___SID=U The HM4000 however was, but has not been in production for almost 15 years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadway Clive Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 The Hornby HM2000 is NOT a feedback controller. http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/hm2000-power-controller.html?___SID=U The HM4000 however was, but has not been in production for almost 15 years. Oh yes it is! I asked Hornby ' The HM2000 controller is described as using 'compensation' to keep a steady speed despite varying load. Can you tell me if this is the same as 'back EMF feedback' and would it be suitable to use with coreless motors? I am asking as I currently use feedback controllers to keep speed steady but a new DJ Models coreless loco is jerky on them and Dave Jones of DJM advises against using them.' The answer :- Yes, it is the same. We do not use coreless motors at present, so are unaware of the performance of the HM2000 with them. Hope this helps. Best regards, Laura Customer Care Advisor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted October 7, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2016 I don't know if there is a controller thread, but aside but related, the black riband A4 from Dapol apparently requires a controller with greater than 1.2amps on DC, I am not aware of any current market DC controller for 00 that supplies more than 1amp controlled without feedback?, I think I saw an MRC one In the US but its 110v input, US plug and no earth. Are Chinese manufacturers testing with U.K. Controllers when designing and testing ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted October 7, 2016 Author Share Posted October 7, 2016 Oh yes it is! I asked Hornby ' The HM2000 controller is described as using 'compensation' to keep a steady speed despite varying load. Can you tell me if this is the same as 'back EMF feedback' and would it be suitable to use with coreless motors? I am asking as I currently use feedback controllers to keep speed steady but a new DJ Models coreless loco is jerky on them and Dave Jones of DJM advises against using them.' The answer :- Yes, it is the same. We do not use coreless motors at present, so are unaware of the performance of the HM2000 with them. Hope this helps. Best regards, Laura Customer Care Advisor Interesting that they say "at present" though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gismorail Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Interesting that they say "at present" though. It just further confirms my thoughts. As I mentioned earlier in the thread I reckon that DCC will be old hat within the next ten years or so and locomotives will be self powering from tiny coreless motors/ gearboxes and battery packs within the model and control will be 'wireless' via your mobile phone and the track will be just a means of guiding the trains as per the real thing. The batteries will more than likely be super fast re-chargeable in the fiddle yard / depot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les1952 Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 It just further confirms my thoughts. As I mentioned earlier in the thread I reckon that DCC will be old hat within the next ten years or so and locomotives will be self powering from tiny coreless motors/ gearboxes and battery packs within the model and control will be 'wireless' via your mobile phone and the track will be just a means of guiding the trains as per the real thing. The batteries will more than likely be super fast re-chargeable in the fiddle yard / depot. Given that Jeremy got a sound chip, stay alive and speaker inside the J94 it isn't beyond the realms of possibility that in a couple of years' time if batteries continue to shrink, someone will convert a DJM J94 to radio-controlled battery power.... Les Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Running our ancient GWR locos on thought-control is a bit like Barny Rubble running his buggy off of his mobile phone. And in 10 years time, the tight wads amongst us will be buying Railroad locos off Eloybay to tart up and run on their H&M twin-sets... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted October 7, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 7, 2016 Interesting that they say "at present" though. Yes but the point is one of the most mainstream of Analogue controllers is not compatible with Coreless motors. It's all very well saying things move on, but if the thing that's moving on is incompatible with the mainstream we are not going to get very far are we. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 7, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2016 It just further confirms my thoughts. As I mentioned earlier in the thread I reckon that DCC will be old hat within the next ten years or so and locomotives will be self powering from tiny coreless motors/ gearboxes and battery packs within the model and control will be 'wireless' via your mobile phone and the track will be just a means of guiding the trains as per the real thing. The batteries will more than likely be super fast re-chargeable in the fiddle yard / depot. ... or from a self-plugging-in version of the Dapol working water crane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gismorail Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 ... or from a self-plugging-in version of the Dapol working water crane OMG one big short circuit me thinks :scared: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted October 7, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2016 It just further confirms my thoughts. As I mentioned earlier in the thread I reckon that DCC will be old hat within the next ten years or so and locomotives will be self powering from tiny coreless motors/ gearboxes and battery packs within the model and control will be 'wireless' via your mobile phone and the track will be just a means of guiding the trains as per the real thing. The batteries will more than likely be super fast re-chargeable in the fiddle yard / depot. And quite a few of us will also be 'old hat'......thus less of the grey exchequer to spend their pensions on the new technology. Me? 'Superfast rechargeable' .......naturally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 It just further confirms my thoughts. As I mentioned earlier in the thread I reckon that DCC will be old hat within the next ten years or so and locomotives will be self powering from tiny coreless motors/ gearboxes and battery packs within the model and control will be 'wireless' via your mobile phone and the track will be just a means of guiding the trains as per the real thing. The batteries will more than likely be super fast re-chargeable in the fiddle yard / depot. Of course, you may well be right. I’m not opposed to progress just so long as it is progress. Take digital watches, for example. The very early ones wouldn’t tell the time until prodded with a finger, which needed something that finger was engaged upon to be put down. Likewise, digital cameras took some time to come of age. Why use battery power in locomotives? At present, I only have to put a loco on the track and apply power. Suppose someone arrives unexpectedly and wants to see my new Fell. Who wouldn’t? (Rhetorical question.) The battery is flat and will need an hour to charge up. Radio control? Radio has its uses, no doubt, but after going super high tech and launching satellites to transmit information, we have gone back to cabling. Just as rails provide guidance to the wheels, they provide a handy means of cabling and they come in pairs. Why not use them? Many years ago, the subject of radio control came up. The discussion ended with the word “tunnels”. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 OMG one big short circuit me thinks :scared: Pair of nanomagnets for positive and another pair for negative? I suppose they’d have to be electronanomagnets to prevent the water crane following the loco and most unrealistically failing to spill water. Achievable with the right budget but perhaps the money might be better spent sending all the coreless motors to the Moon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroadbill Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 And in 10 years time, the tight wads amongst us will be buying Railroad locos off Eloybay to tart up and run on their H&M twin-sets... But Larry, that's exactly what what I do now!! How else would I have got my link of upgraded A1 pacifics, to run with my H&M clipper? :-) :-) The Faller HO road vehicles have rechargable batteries and what must be very small motors. (Plus I've seen radio controlled HO scale vehicles). We've already got very small Z scale mechs etc so as has been said, plenty of room for radio/batteries in oo scale locos when using new, tiny but powerful motors. So Dave's approach may well be the future road to take. Also, I saw a video recently of the very large railway layout in Hamburg, where a radio controlled HO scale truck, with a video camera on it's roof which took the footage, was on a car ferry that docked, then drove up a ramp, through the dock and into a stream of Faller type moving traffic. Radio control kit and batteries that small could easily go into a loco so there is great potential there for future experiment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted October 7, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2016 Radio control? Radio has its uses, no doubt, but after going super high tech and launching satellites to transmit information, we have gone back to cabling. Just as rails provide guidance to the wheels, they provide a handy means of cabling and they come in pairs. Why not use them? Many years ago, the subject of radio control came up. The discussion ended with the word “tunnels”. Better not say that to TfL then... Radio on the underground is old hat. Indeed 3G is installed on subways for passengers around the world (except limited parts of london which is decades behind on that store). But battery charging.. if you look at radio control helicopters, the battery's are push fit and removable In seconds, similarly people have chargers which can charge several spares at a time. Model railways has an advantage in that it has an inbuilt charging feed already.. dc running through the rails.. so a shed really could be for refuelling.. in addition to "power unit" swapping. The loco could then have some mobile phone tech on board.. sound, but synchronised to power & speed recognising gradients, and use a gimbal to cut off power in a derailment etc, in cab cameras..it could get really clever and recognise signals... At that point the chassis and the body needn't be fixed.. maybe sales of bodies independant of chassis may become the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 There’s no telling what will appear and what appeal it will have. Some technologies appear almost from nowhere and explode upon us. Others, which seem within our grasp, are very difficult to crack. What about train simulators? Great fun and drew me in for a while. Some people still love them, of course, but I missed real little things chuntering around. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Hawkins Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Just rang Hattons to order J9405 ' Hurricane ' this is the 5th J94 that will be running on my layout, I really am impressed with these 0-6-0's and hope to add a few more to my fleet as soon as others are made available, Dave Jones, i don't like you very much financially, but my bank manager, strangely, thinks the world of you. :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Just rang Hattons to order J9405 ' Hurricane ' this is the 5th J94 that will be running on my layout, I really am impressed with these 0-6-0's and hope to add a few more to my fleet as soon as others are made available, Dave Jones, i don't like you very much financially, but my bank manager, strangely, thinks the world of you. :-) Show him your five J94's and tell him that's where all't money went. He will probably remind you what 'Austerity' means .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted October 7, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2016 Just rang Hattons to order J9405 ' Hurricane ' this is the 5th J94 that will be running on my layout, I really am impressed with these 0-6-0's and hope to add a few more to my fleet as soon as others are made available, Dave Jones, i don't like you very much financially, but my bank manager, strangely, thinks the world of you. :-) Hey Big Spender...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Hawkins Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Hey Big Spender...... More like Hey Big Bankrupt.... Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.