Dave F's photos - ongoing - more added each day

[R Marshall]

Dave,

 

I'm relatively new to the site and just stumbled on this thread - magnificent pictures - many thanks.

 

I'm a bit worried though, having spent most of today helping prepare a certain little green tank engine at Leeming Bar (thoroughly enjoyable, despite day-long drizzle), I'm starting to like 66s!

 

I'll get over it, I guess.

[lmsforever]

Woodhorn is an excellent place to visit and understand about coal mining ,went a few years back and one of the exhibitions had a pair of Alan Shearers boots as a competition prize>

[Porcy Mane]

A large proportion of the mines in the UK were on flat land; those of the Eastern parts of the County Durham and Northumberland amongst them. In both these coalfields, the earlier mines were in the hillier bits of the west, where they'd probably originally been drifts into valley sides.

Sorry Brian, but I have to differ with that statement (but would never dream of hitting the Disagree button).

 

With regard to Co. Durham, yes to the West in the low foothills of the Pennines there were drifts but most of these collieries still had shafts to lower seams but to describe East Durham as flat is something of a misnomer.  In Coal mining terms, the Old A1 road (now A167) was generally used as the border between East (Flat)and West(Hilly) Durham or what was/is known in geographical  terms as the exposed or concealed coalfield. In pitmatic language this unofficial border also defined, dependant on where a miner lived whether that  miner was a "Cod Heed" or a "Sheepsha**er".

 

This topographical border in reality can be much more sharply defined along the western escarpment of the magnesium limestone ridge which runs, South down the coast to almost reach the Hartlepools and has a westerly running leg that runs through Ferryhill, (where the ECML takes advantage of  the glacial cut gap that runs through the escarpment) Shildon (where Shildon Tunnel passes through the escarpment) and Butterknowle (were the George Stephenson had to build his Butterknowle incline for the Stockton and Darlington to surmount the escarpment).

 

Without going into the geology of the area to deeply even the east of Durham to the coast is comparatively hilly apart from the high ground of the East Durham Plateau. That's why collieries on the plateau such as Haswell, South Hetton, Murton and the relatively new (1959) Hawthorne shaft were served by self acting inclines. Most of the coastal collieries with the exception of Westoe were sunk on the top of high limestone cliffs. Think of the Durham Coast railway viaducts that cross Dawdon, Hawthorne and Castle Eden Denes.

 

Probably the only real Durham mining area that was comparatively flat were the collieries in the region  that is now Washington New Town. Off the top of my head and not including early collieries they were  Washington F, Glebe, Harraton, Usworth and Wardly.  Even these collieries at one time utilised inclines to get to staithes in the steep valleys of the  rivers Wear and Tyne.

 

I only live nine miles from the coast so I'm definitely in the east of the county yet there was three coal drifts nearby the nearest only being a few hundred yards away. As I write this there is a six foot high coal seam of untouched coal measure about 20 feet below the soles of my feet. All that is keeping us apart is my homes foundations and about 17 feet of Glacial Till.

 

The Northumberland coalfield on the other hand was on the surface (no pun intended) much flatter than Co. Durham as shown in Dave's wonderful photo of Woodhorn.

 

This differing topography between Durham and Northumberland is why the more powerful Q6 dominated mineral train haulage in Co. Durham and the J27 predominated in the South East Northumberland Coalfield. That difference in topography also influenced BRs decision to delay early dieselisation of the North Eastern Region in deference to development of the Class 7*  (Seven Star) freight train classification thus prolonging the life of the Q6 and J27 but that's another story...

 

That's why I love the hills of East (and West) Durham.

 

Apologies for being such a bore.

P

[cheesysmith]

Porcy, thanks for a informative post. That wasn't even remotely dull. And I'm not being sarcastic. I did geology at school, and it was probably the only subject other than chemistry ( because I could make things go bang) I found remotely interesting. To bring it slightly back on subject, wasn't it the pits to the east that we're deeper and some even went out under the north sea? Also, the comment of the seam under your house raises the question of how much coal there still is in the uk, and how it is easier for us to pay someone else to dig it up and transport it half way round the world, but that would be a bit too political.

 

And let me say, some excellent photos as usual. I love these photos of the normal, that everyone just ignored at the time. Those photos of the limestone trains being banked you can actually see how steep the gradient is in some of those photos.

 

Ps-living in Sheffield, at the foothills of the Pennines and the peak district, our lives are governed by geology. If you want to go anywhere in this city, it will always be uphill at some point.

[Porcy Mane]

That wasn't even remotely dull.

Dunno about that.

 

Hope Dave doesn't mind the slight hijack? (Again)

 

You're quite right the coal seams dip from West to East so Dawdon Colliery on the coast, its shafts were approx. 1800 ft deep whereas one of  East Hettons shafts (to the Harvey[N] Coal Seam) was 800 Feet. East Hetton was approx. 10 miles inland. Don't quote me on those depths as I'm doing this from memory and there was probably as many mine shafts in Northumberland and Durham as there was blades of grass.

 

But that is only half of the story. Coal seams were originally christened with names and as technology and geology advanced these seams were also given a much simpler nationwide index letter designation. Miners still used the names but this could be confusing, as in some instances the same seam names were used to identify physically different coal seams at different collierys.

 

This could become even more confusing if you looked at things regionally for example Yorkshire seam names differed totally to that used in Durham.

 

To give you some idea of how many seams there were (Not all were viably workable) in Durham.

The most shallow seam was indexed as "A" Hebburn Fell Seam. (There were 3 minor coal seams above this.)

The deepest was indexed as "V" Ganister Clay. From memory the letters I and W were never used in Northumberland or Durham. There were many smaller unworkable coal seams in between the indexed coal measures. Should you want a full list I can one somewhere. There could be considerable difference in height the of coal seams and depths between strata. What this meant was if you were sinking a shaft once you encountered the first coal seam it could be hundreds of feet till you were at the bottom seam. Early 19th century mining engineers would use a bore hole to prove the most viable "thickest" seam. and than use a simple depth x area calculation to work out a volume of coal but sometimes due to their geological naivety got things terribly wrong.

 

Your right about coastal collieries working undersea coal measures. I can't remember how far without checking, but up to ten miles seems to ring a bell. Ventilation would then become a problem. The NCB had their own independent exploration company that operated offshore exploration rigs in the 1960's and 70's and it is the misinterpretation of the boring results that led to the massive over estimation of workable coal reserves off the North East coast. The coal is there but to work it viably using deep mining techniques would have been costly. There are proposals now being mooted that will see the energy being released from these coal reserves by high pressure schemes using chemical injection. And yes you're right  about there still being ample coal left in the North East. That's why there is continual opencast planning applications on going.

 

You mention the hills in Sheffield. I know them only too well. That's through spending too many weekends throughout the 1980's in the City visiting such "desirable establishments" as Josephine's and Cairo Jax(Corporation) but you'll be too young to remember those dives.

 

P

 

With apologies to Dave for drifting way... way off topic.

[cheesysmith]

Another OT question. Do you know what the coal reserves are like in the Barnsley seams? It would just answer a question I have about the proposed Woolley colliery plan, and the early closure and seeming lack of use for the massive investment that went on there.

[Fat Controller]

Another OT question. Do you know what the coal reserves are like in the Barnsley seams? It would just answer a question I have about the proposed Woolley colliery plan, and the early closure and seeming lack of use for the massive investment that went on there.

It's not so much the amount of reserves as how accessible they are; they might have hit a lot of faults, rendering the seams unfit for mechanical extraction, or the pit might have been liable to flooding. 

The former was the case in several projects in my native South West Wales; one case being Cynheidre, which in its best years produced only a fraction of the forecasts (these had been so large that the L&MMR had been modernised to take the anticipated traffic, and electrification was proposed..) The anthracite fields were notorious for the amount of faulting, this being a result of the same process that converted the soft coal into 'black diamonds'. I remember my geology teacher pointing out of the classroom window, and saying there was a fault on average every yard or so when going south-east- north-west. The throw of such faults was often relatively small, and manual extraction would take them in its stride, but the machines needed a decent run to justify their use.

The latter caused problems in many places; one of the most spectacular being the pit next to Thornton Yard in Fife, where shafts were sunk, surface buildings were constructed, and again the railway facilities upgraded, but water ingress was such that the mine was abandoned before any coal was extracted commercially.

My apologies for describing East Durham as 'flat'- I only meant so in relation to the western part of the county, and to South Wales.

[DaveF]

Some photos from Skipton this evening.

 

The January 1967 photos must have been taken on two days, one with sun the other with really awful light!

 

I find it hard to believe that 1983 was over thirty years go.

 

Skipton Britannia 70045 Lord Rowallan The Waverley Edinburgh to St Pancras Jan 67 J734

 

 

Skipton BR Class 4 4-6-0 75015 ready to leave goods yard for Grassington Jan 67 J751

 

 

Skipton LMS Class 5 44667 (probably) up mineral Jan 67 J756

 

 

Skipton Class 110 and 101 Morecambe to Leeds Aug 83 C6243

 

 

Skipton 2x Class 31 up ICI tanks Aug 83 C6246

The loco shed was on the left.

 

David

Edited November 28, 2014 by DaveF

[Market65]

Hi, Dave. Outstanding, the first three photo's of Skipton, in January, 1967. Very nostalgic and you can see that the end of steam was getting slowly closer, with weary looking engines. The two 1983 photo's have a different kind of interest, one that they show how things had changed in the intervening years, and that some of the steam age replacements, i.e. that DMU, were getting near to replacement themselves. Also just how, even then, the lineside had become somewhat overgrown. Fascinating photo's in every respect, and showing good examples of 'then and now'.

 

Please keep the photo's coming,

 

All the best,

 

Market65.

[Mallard60022]

J734. I think that was one of the last Brit steam turns on passenger? Super pics especially as I was at Skipton in July watching the Tour de France (Yorkshire version) and went to and from by train from Bingly

P

Edited November 29, 2014 by Mallard60022

[DaveF]

I thought we'd have another look at the Great Central heading south from Nottingham Victoria today.  The emphasis, if there is one, is on infrastructure.

 

At least one photo is probably familiar to a number of  you.

 

 

Weekday Cross GCR bridge in front, GNR behind over Nottingham Canal from Carrington Street Aug 75 J4676

 

 

Ruschcliffe Halt view north 10th June 89 C12011

 

 

East Leake Class 28 Derby RTC S15705 up light engine April 68 J1574

 

 

East Leake tunnel north of Class 31 up light engine Feb 83 C5935

 

 

River Soar 9F up freight Sept 64 J1468

 

 

David

[Rob F]

I thought we'd have another look at the Great Central heading south from Nottingham Victoria today.  The emphasis, if there is one, is on infrastructure.

 

 

Dave

 

J4676 is really an image of my childhood. The bus stop for buses to West Bridgford was on the Carrington St bridge where this shot was taken from so this view was very familiar on the way home after arriving at the station. I remember wishing that I could have seen trains on both of the visible railway bridges! In winter it was a freezing place to wait for a bus as the wind howled along the canal.

 

Rob

[Market65]

Hi, Dave. Love the Great Central photo's. Great to see the RTC, now preserved, class 28 Co-Bo. It looks grubby; I think that it would be running O.K. though. Sad to see the dereliction of Ruschcliffe Halt in photo' C12011.

 

Please keep the photo's coming,

 

All the best,

 

Market65.

[stovepipe]

A few photos from locations between Grantham and Peterborough today.  In the late 60s/early 70sMum and Dad lived not too far away so we often went there when I visited them.  

 

j Swayfield Class 25 D7503 down parcels July 71 C673.jpg

Swayfield Class 25 D7503 down parcels July 71 C673

David

 

Great thread.

 

The 25 is on 4M22 12:30 Parcels Peterborough (New Terminal) - Crewe, due Grantham just after 1pm. It was only on the Main line between Werrington and Grantham.

[DaveF]

Great thread.

 

The 25 is on 4M22 12:30 Parcels Peterborough (New Terminal) - Crewe, due Grantham just after 1pm. It was only on the Main line between Werrington and Grantham.

 

 

Many thanks, I've added the information to the caption.

 

David

[DaveF]

A visit this afternoon to look at the steam centre at Chappel and Wakes Colne station in Essex on various dates in the 1970s.  This is now the "East Anglian Railway Museum".

 

Their website is at: http://www.earm.co.uk/

 

Back in the 70s it was a pleasant afternoon's visit, always with plenty to look at, whether anything was running or not.

 

They also had a small shop which always seemed to have an interesting book to buy.  One day I found a Midland Railway working timetable for October 1922, another day they had a book about the 1953 floods in Essex.

 

 

Chappel and Wakes Colne RSH 0-6-0ST 54 and Barclay 0-4-0 DS 144 May75 C2016

 

 

Chappel and Wakes Colne Brighton Belle driving coach March76 C2638

 

 

 

Chappel and Wakes Colne RSH 0-6-0T 7597 at an open day Oct77 C3583

 

 

Chappel and Wakes Colne Bagnall 2542 'Jubilee' ex-Bowaters paper mill Sept 78 C4125

 

 

A very dull day RSH 0-6-0T British Electricity Authority being unloaded Chappel and Wakes Colne Nov78 C4217

 

 

Chappel and Wakes Colne Manning Wardle Penn Green May79 C4491

 

 

David

Edited November 30, 2014 by DaveF

[avonside1563]

Great photos Dave as usual, a small correction to the last set, photo C4125 is Bagnall 2542 'Jubilee' ex-Bowaters paper mill.

[DaveF]

Great photos Dave as usual, a small correction to the last set, photo C4125 is Bagnall 2542 'Jubilee' ex-Bowaters paper mill.

 

 

Thanks very much, I've amended the caption.

 

Don't ask why I got it wrong, I typed out the caption to another photo!

 

David

[DaveF]

A quick trip to Scotland now to have another look at trains at Mossend.

 

The weather was rarely co-operative when I visited this part of Scotland , usually dull and cold, whatever the time of year.

 

 

Mossend North 26034 down rail 14th Aug 87 C8963

 

 

Mossend North 37029 Alcan North Blyth to Fort William 14th Aug 87 C8967

The loco is in rail blue, it's just a faded slide.

 

Mossend North 26005, 37310, 37321 iron ore to Ravenscraig 14th Aug 87 C8972

 

 

Mossend South 26006 on scrap 14th Aug 87 junc C8978

 

 

Mossend North 60034 iron ore Hunterston to Ravenscraig 5th April 91 C15725

 

 

David

Edited November 30, 2014 by DaveF

[Chris Turnbull]

J734. I think that was one of the last Brit steam turns on passenger? Super pics especially as I was at Skipton in July watching the Tour de France (Yorkshire version) and went to and from by train from Bingly

P

 

The last "Britannia" in use other than "Oliver Cromwell" was 70021 "Morning Star" which lasted into 1968.  I recorded her on passenger duty on 28th December 1967, see post #163 on:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/91758-chris-ts-photo-archives-updated-30th-november/page-7

 

Chris Turnbull

Edited December 1, 2014 by Chris Turnbull

[Fat Controller]

Photo C8978 shows some of the air-piped 21t Minerals, TOPS-coded MDW; these were a very late-in-the-day conversion, when it was belatedly realised that some significant scrap-flows would be lost when air-braked services replaced the last vacuum-braked ones. These included traffic from Tyneside and Stockton to Lackenby, and local flows to Ravenscraig. By fitting air-pipes, the wagons could travel in air-braked trunk services such as those between Tyne and Tees Yards; initially, these would have been Speedlink services, but once these had been abandoned, then Metals Sector trains, such as Workington- Lackenby empty slab trains, would have been used.

[Market65]

Hi, Dave. A great set of photo's today at the Chappel and Wakes Colne steam centre. A terrific selection of engines to be seen there. The photo's of Mossend are equally good. I particularly like C8972 of 26005, 37310 and 37321 on an iron ore train to Ravenscraig, on the 14th, August, 1987. Times have changed.

 

Please keep the photo's coming,

 

All the best,

 

Market65.

[Old Gringo]

Ref: post 1517; 

 

Britannia's 70012 and 70014 were both in steam at Carlisle Kingmoor shed (12A) on 30th December 1967 between 08:00 - 09:00 and available for work.  'Iron Duke' (14) had just worked in off a freight over the Settle & Carlisle and 'John of Gaunt' (12) was rostered to work duty 3J41 south-bound.

 

The non-appearance of 70004, 70023 and 70035 from my list (30/12/1967) suggests that they too were still in working order somewhere and both 70013 and 70024 were also missing from the twenty-plus Britannia survivors allocated to Kingmoor at that time.  

 

'Vulcan' (24) must have worked south earlier as it lay dead at Speke Junction for several months - well into the Spring of '68 (see my Avatar).  'Cromwell' (13) had taken a football special south on Boxing Day and was promptly transferred to Carnforth (10A).  And we now know from Chris T's photos that 70021 worked from Preston on December 28th on a passenger duty.

 

Thanks for all the great photographs, Dave, especially all those with steam and infrastructure!

 

All the best,

John

 

Edit: Further to writing stuff at midnight and using memory and an old notebook, here's a few extra notes regarding the last Brits. in steam 30/12/1967.

 

70004 (the one that really should have been preserved) condemned in Viaduct yard, Carlisle (30/12). Scrapped Ward, Inverkeithing, 11/03/68.

70012 withdrawn at Patricroft shed, Manchester (30/12), after working down on 3J41. Scrapped Ward, Killamarsh, 21/03/68.

70014 condemned in Viaduct yard, Carlisle (30/12). Scrapped Ward, Inverkeithing, 12/03/68.

70021 condemned at Kingmoor (30/12). Scrapped Ward, Inverkeithing, 26/04/68.

70023 stopped at Newton Heath, Manchester, after working south (29/12?). Scrapped Ward, Killamarsh, 26/04/68.

70024 stopped at Speke Junction as previously noted (but when 29/12?). Scrapped Ward, Killamarsh, 25/04/68.

70035 condemned in Viaduct yard, Carlisle (30/12). Scrapped Ward, Inverkeithing,11/03/68.

70045 stopped at Springs Branch, Wigan, after working south (30/12?). Scrapped Ward, Beighton, 27/02/68.

 

All the others remaining at Carlisle Kingmoor on 30/12/1967 were withdrawn on the spot and disposed of in the first 3 months of 1968.  Sad times!  At least we still have two of these wonderful locomotives to admire and sometimes even travel behind.

 

Hope this helps.

Disposals from RCTS; B.R. Standard Steam Locomotives. Volume 1, 1994, ISBN 090 1115 81 9.

 

Apologies Dave, for the hijack of your topic with old stuff!

[DaveF]

Today we'll have a look at some bits of the GER branch from Wickford to Southminster.  As I lived not far away for about six years you would think I'd have photographed the whole line.

 

I didn't.  

 

Worse, I didn't fully realise that until I'd moved to Northumberland so I now live 310 miles from Southminster, according to the AA route planner.  A bit too far to pop down to get photos!

 

I usually visited that part of Essex by the River Crouch on Sunday afternoons for a walk along the river.  Most often I parked near the slipway at North Fambridge, which was at the end of a short piece of road which flooded at high tide, so you had to be careful.  I rarely went there in July and August as it got so busy.

 

Having looked at a 1975/6 timetable I have realised there was no Sunday service, except in July, August and the first weekend in September.  So most times I went there were no trains on the branch, hence not many photos.  The photos I do have were taken on the few times I went there on other days.  Even then the service was roughly one train every 80 minutes.  Nowadays there are roughly twice as many trains!

 

End of excuses.

 

These are all the photos I have of the line.

 

Battlesbridge Class 105 Wickford to Southminster Nov 79 C4898

 

 

Battlesbridge Class 105 Wickford to Southminster Nov 79 C4899

 

 

Battlesbridge view towards Woodham Ferrers Nov 79 C4897

 

 

Fambridge Class 104 Wickford to Southminster Sept 74 C1790

 

 

Fambridge Class 104 Wickford to Southminster Sept 74 C1791

 

 

Althorne Class 104 Southminster to Wickford Sept 74 C1792

 

 

Althorne Class 104 Southminster to Wickford Sept 74 C1793

My Saab 96 is on the right.

 

David

[Market65]

Hi, Dave. Try not to worry too much about having taken not so many photo's of the line. Those you have taken are quality photo's and show a typical single track branch in BR  days. I like that bridge at Battlesbridge, it is very modellable.  Your Saab 96 makes quite a contrast with the stark appearance of the class 104 DMU.

Please keep the photo's coming,

 

All the best,

 

Market65.