The Official Rapido APT-E Thread

[LongRail]

kit sorry lost text in the middle.

 

When was the picture of the bogies in the yard taken as the cars in the background look a lot newer than I would have anticipated

[Mr_Tilt]

That was in November 2004, on the 12th I think, the day before we moved the first Power Car to Shildon.

 

The red car's my Zafira GSi, the 'chase car' we used the next morning to try and get to Shildon before PC1 did. The moving guys left an HOUR earlier than they said they would, and we may have broken the odd speed limit on the A59 while chasing them......

[newbryford]

That was in November 2004, on the 12th I think, the day before we moved the first Power Car to Shildon.

 

The red car's my Zafira GSi, the 'chase car' we used the next morning to try and get to Shildon before PC1 did. The moving guys left an HOUR earlier than they said they would, and we may have broken the odd speed limit on the A59 while chasing them......

 

You certainly would've broken the speed limit if you'd gone via the A59 - it stops at York!

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Mr_Tilt]

We started from York, outside the Thrall Yard, went up the A59 to its junction with the A1(M) and then went north to the junction with the A68, then onto the A6072 to Shildon.

 

My Zafira could almost drive the route by itself by the time we'd moved the whole train! 

[ColinK]

Tired tonight so I sat down and watched a couple of VHS tapes I had picked up somewhere. The first was 'Britains Railway Heritage, Archive British Diesel & Electric Traction volume 2'. While the quality of the tape was poor, it did include some real gems, Green Falcon, Blue Pullman, class 74, one of the southen 1-co-co-1 locos, and some shots of a five car APT-P. Excellent. So if someone produces a 5 car APT its fine to run it on our layouts.

[modelpara]

and some shots of a five car APT-P. Excellent. So if someone produces a 5 car APT its fine to run it on our layouts.

 

Plenty of Hornby sets floating around

[willjmitchell]

Indulge me for a minute in this fantasy but, given HS2's intention to procure new "classic compatible" trains, might this not be a good time to resurrect the APT and design a new generation of British tilting trains that could run on HS2 and continue their journeys to Liverpool, Glasgow etc on the old west coast main line?

 

Assuming the financial arrangements could be put in place and the political will found, do we still have the engineering talent required to pursue such a project? And what would a new APT look like? Would it be possible to surpass what has already been achieved by railway engineers and train designers in France, Germany and Japan?

 

Reviews of the new Hitatchi Super Express trains being procured by the DfT for use on the Great Western and East Coast main lines suggest they are sub-optimal, compromised and eye-wateringly expensive.

 

Surely a new generation of APTs is the way forward!

[Colin_McLeod]

Nice thought but they can be purchased off the shelf elsewhere so who is going to fund this?

[Matabiau]

Indulge me for a minute in this fantasy but, given HS2's intention to procure new "classic compatible" trains, might this not be a good time to resurrect the APT and design a new generation of British tilting trains that could run on HS2 and continue their journeys to Liverpool, Glasgow etc on the old west coast main line?

 

Assuming the financial arrangements could be put in place and the political will found, do we still have the engineering talent required to pursue such a project? And what would a new APT look like? Would it be possible to surpass what has already been achieved by railway engineers and train designers in France, Germany and Japan?

 

Reviews of the new Hitatchi Super Express trains being procured by the DfT for use on the Great Western and East Coast main lines suggest they are sub-optimal, compromised and eye-wateringly expensive.

 

Surely a new generation of APTs is the way forward!

 

 

While HS2 could be deemed an opportunity to build a new APT benefiting UK engineering I beleive the whole point of HS2 is that it wouldn't need tilting trains as the curves would be gentle enough to take upright.

[Mr_Tilt]

Hmm, probably not in my view.

 

We've lost almost a whole generation of innovative railway engineers by now and there hasn't been any advanced railway engineering done in the UK for some time. Lots of work has taken place, sure, but always piggy-backed onto foreign designs and contracts somewhat sadly, and all the research and development work took place at their sites.

[willjmitchell]

My point is that classic compatible trains would presumably be required to tilt when travelling on classic lines, in particular the WCML north of Warrington (where it is proposed to join with HS2).

 

As far as I am aware there is not an 'off the peg' solution here. Any procurement of ICE, TGV or other foreign-manufactured trains will require them to be adapted to the British loading guage and we'll need them to tilt seeing as HS2 isn't going all the way to Scotland.

 

So why not build a British solution to a British problem?

[Mr_Tilt]

My point is that classic compatible trains would presumably be required to tilt when travelling on classic lines, in particular the WCML north of Warrington (where it is proposed to join with HS2).

 

As far as I am aware there is not an 'off the peg' solution here. Any procurement of ICE, TGV or other foreign-manufactured trains will require them to be adapted to the British loading guage and we'll need them to tilt seeing as HS2 isn't going all the way to Scotland.

 

So why not build a British solution to a British problem?

 

Virgin's Pendelinos do exactly that just now, but they can't go at their design speeds because of the failure of the signalling upgrade programme on the WCML many years ago. Solve that and 390s running at 140 mph would be just what you're thinking of, except they've not been designed and built here of course.

[willjmitchell]

I think the issue with the pendos is they aren't designed to run at the higher speeds intended on HS2.

 

Not to mention the fact that they're rubbish trains.

[willjmitchell]

Hmm, probably not in my view.

 

We've lost almost a whole generation of innovative railway engineers by now and there hasn't been any advanced railway engineering done in the UK for some time. Lots of work has taken place, sure, but always piggy-backed onto foreign designs and contracts somewhat sadly, and all the research and development work took place at their sites.

It's a such a tragedy what has happened. I look over at the Germans with great envy.

Edited January 26, 2016 by willjmitchell

[Matabiau]

Look closely and you will doubtless find British engineers working at Siemens in Germany alongside engineers from all over Europe. The same applies for most big companies. Add to that the requirement to manufacture in the UK for the majority of these big projects and there is little German left other than the name, and the bank account.

[Mr_Tilt]

That's true, and I know some of them, but since the privatisation of BR we've lost the mass of engineering knowledge in one organisation that we had at the RTC.

 

As the privatised industry is mostly foreign based and is now distributed all over Europe and the rest of the world there isn't a core of UK based railway engineering to do the sort of thing that we used to back in the 60s-80s.

[jjb1970]

I think the issue with the pendos is they aren't designed to run at the higher speeds intended on HS2.

 

Not to mention the fact that they're rubbish trains.

I think that's a bit unfair. I'm not the biggest fan of the internal layout and seating of the Pendolino but the trains themselves appear to work well enough and seem to go up and down the WCML all day every day reliably. They've never been able to achieve their potential 140mph capability but that is not because of anything wrong with the trains themselves. Whilst they're not the best trains I travel on they're far from being the worst.

[willjmitchell]

I think that's a bit unfair. I'm not the biggest fan of the internal layout and seating of the Pendolino but the trains themselves appear to work well enough and seem to go up and down the WCML all day every day reliably. They've never been able to achieve their potential 140mph capability but that is not because of anything wrong with the trains themselves. Whilst they're not the best trains I travel on they're far from being the worst.

Fair enough, the engineering does appear to work well. I agree with you in that most of my objections relate to the cramped, smelly interiors and incessant announcements but these are the fault of Virgin.

 

Having said that, I think when compared to the APT-Ps the pendos are inferior. The APTs were relatively spacious and comfortable although I never actually rode on one.

 

Out of interest, what are the best trains you've travelled on? I would say the ICEs take some beating in terms of comfort although they are a little soulless.

[lyneux]

Having said that, I think when compared to the APT-Ps the pendos are inferior. The APTs were relatively spacious and comfortable although I never actually rode on one.

 

I totally agree. Go to Crewe and walk inside the APT-P. You are presented with a spacious airy interior with large windows and proper seating bays with tables. Compare this with the cramped dark interior of the Pendo and there is no comparison. I never used an APT-P toilet (for comparison's sake) but the smell of the toilets on the Pendo is very noticeable!

 

About the only thing the Pendo wins on is the seat coverings... that tartan seating on the APT-P... what were they thinking!!!

[BernardTPM]

Having said that, I think when compared to the APT-Ps the pendos are inferior. The APTs were relatively spacious and comfortable although I never actually rode on one.

Having travelled on both, the APT certainly gets my vote for ambiance; despite the smaller profile (APT was even more sloped in) the whole interior was much brighter and airy and while the window alignment wasn't perfect in second/standard class at least there were no 'wall' seats (how you can you call it a window seat when there is no window at all?!!). Tartan was in fashion when the train was built and they were based at Polmadie IIRC. No doubt production trains would have had the eighties IC style interior patterns if they'd happened.

There was a lot of design work put into the interiors because they were concerned not to make them look too cramped in comparison with the then recent Mk.3 coaches.

[Matabiau]

Even if someone did build a new APT you can gurantee that the interior would be cramped as the operator would want to put as many seats in a possible. Gone are the days where every seat has a table and lines up with a window, whatever the future holds it will almost certainly include "airline" style seating with every other row having its view spoilt by a pillar. Unless of course you can afford first class!

[Mr_Tilt]

The P-Trains would be more 'sloped in' than a 390 because they were designed for 9 deg. of active tilt plus another 3 deg of passive tilt just like E-Train was. The 390s were not designed to tilt as much, 8 deg. maximum as I understand it, but their system doesn't allow for passive tilt as far as I can make out.

[russ p]

 

About the only thing the Pendo wins on is the seat coverings... that tartan seating on the APT-P... what were they thinking!!!

Did someone on the design team like TR7s?

[jjb1970]

Fair enough, the engineering does appear to work well. I agree with you in that most of my objections relate to the cramped, smelly interiors and incessant announcements but these are the fault of Virgin.

 

Having said that, I think when compared to the APT-Ps the pendos are inferior. The APTs were relatively spacious and comfortable although I never actually rode on one.

 

Out of interest, what are the best trains you've travelled on? I would say the ICEs take some beating in terms of comfort although they are a little soulless.

That’s an interesting question and not easy to answer. There are so many potential interpretations of what would constitute best train. Ultimately the best train is one which takes you where you need to go at the time you need to get there comfortably. That means that rather than just looking at the physical train you need to consider how it is utilised and reliability as well as the usual indicators of comfort and speed. Plus, of course if you are ever unlucky enough to be in a crash the train should be safe.

 

Overall, the trains which in my experience have been several levels above any others I’ve travelled on (and this includes various iterations of ICE and TGV) is the Japanese Shinkansen. Funnily I’d not narrow it down any more than Shinkansen and most of them are pretty similar inside. They follow the Swiss approach to cabin comfort in eschewing ostentatious luxury and gimmicks (at least in 2nd class) and provide a very clean environment, good leg room and well designed seats. The trains are very fast, impeccably clean, extremely reliable and provide a very intensive service. The combination of frill free comfort, cleanliness, speed and reliability always left me asking myself the question of “why aren’t all railways like this?”.

 

If I look beyond this, believe it or not I’ve found UK trains generally compare well. OK we do not have the high speed glamour of some countries with the anomalous exception of the CTRL but what we do have is a dense network, generally high service intensity and believe it or not a reliability which seems to compare well with other railways in the world. If looking at trains themselves sometimes there is a marked difference between engineering quality and comfort. I commute using London Midland Class 350’s, my opinion is that the 350 appears to be the most sturdily built and solid of any of the new generation trains that I use and they appear to be extremely reliable. The 350/1 and 350/3 also have good seating however I just do not like the ride quality which I find on some of them can be shocking. For all that I think the 350 and its sister Desiro platform trains are probably “better” than their rival Electrostar family from Bombardier I’ve found that the Southern Electrostars that operate to Milton Keynes are much nicer trains.

 

On the Pendolino, without wanting to sound snobbish I find first class on the Pendolino is a wonderful way to travel. I know Virgin are not everybody’s favourite but I have to be honest and call things as I’ve found them and I’ve found Virgin Pendolino services reliable and pretty punctual and unlike a few years ago when the WCML was IMO a poor relation of GNER ECML services is now a much better way to go than the ECML.

 

In terms of the British train I like best at the moment it is probably the refurbished Chiltern Mk.3 sets.

[Steven B]

I totally agree. Go to Crewe and walk inside the APT-P. You are presented with a spacious airy interior with large windows and proper seating bays with tables. Compare this with the cramped dark interior of the Pendo and there is no comparison.

How much of this difference in interior space is down to changes in crash protection over the last 40 years? The Grayrigg crash showed how resilient the Pendo is. I wonder how the APT-P would have fared in a similar crash.

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.