The Official Rapido APT-E Thread

[cheesysmith]

As to the 91 being developed from the APT, the proposal for the APT-S was for a power car at the end of a rake of coaches. To fit a cab onto a APT power car with the body mounted motors would have required missing out a motor, making it a 1a-bo loco. Then someone had the bright idea of mounting the motors hung from the body, under the bodyshell, in the space they would normally be if mounted onto the bogies. This put the heavy motors fully suspended from the track, using both primary suspension and the secondary as well. It also made the centre of gravity lower on the loco. The gearboxes were then mounted onto the bogies, so minimising the mass of the bogies with only the flexible drive from the gearbox to the axles being unsprung. As tests with the APT proved, there was no reason for the tilting other than Passinger comfort, the train was more than able to go round curves faster without it. As for the 91, well, it is probably the most advanced DC motored electric loco built. I say this because everything that was built into it can be done now easier and cheaper using modern AC motors.

[Jitmen]

Just read the apt-e review in model rail magazine and it says there is one wiper on one end as in real life one was knocked off by a bird strike, I thought one end had one and the other two as a experiment?

[GRUNFOS]

I think Mr Tilt mentioned that earlier, I've looked at the photo of APT and HST in the center pages of the Rapido book and can't any wipers on it at all!

[Mr_Tilt]

Just read the apt-e review in model rail magazine and it says there is one wiper on one end as in real life one was knocked off by a bird strike, I thought one end had one and the other two as a experiment?

 

They should have read the book included with the model more closely...........

 

 

I think Mr Tilt mentioned that earlier, I've looked at the photo of APT and HST in the center pages of the Rapido book and can't any wipers on it at all!

 

 

It's PC2 that's facing the camera in all those pics taken at Swindon, and so it had one wiper, which is right over on the left hand side of the screen looking from inside the cab.

 

PC2 normally had two wipers, and the video camera in the bottom left hand corner of the screen looking from the inside. We lost one of the wipers on PC1 just before the trip to York and it was never replaced. And the one remaining blade on PC1 is still bent to all sorts of stupid angles now, which was done by vandals who were trying to steal it while it was at the NRM.

 

When the train was built in 1972 it only had one wiper at each end, but only the very first run took place like this as the second wiper on PC1 was added during Rebuild 1 after the ASLEF blacking.

 

Remember that wipers could be anywhere along the screen, they didn't always stop in the same place so they may not be where you're looking for them.....

 

Just read the apt-e review in model rail magazine and it says there is one wiper on one end as in real life one was knocked off by a bird strike, I thought one end had one and the other two as a experiment?

 

They should have read the book included with the model more closely...........

[Jitmen]

Thanks for that info on the wipers.

[amwells]

So should the model have two wipers at one end? Mine only has one at both ends, in different places - I think I'm confusing myself!

[MJI]

Incidentally APT-E is just as important historically as flying Scotsman as as the A1 was first to exceed 100mph APT-E was the first to exceed 150mph in Britain

 

Some people will disagree about Flying Scosman.

 

Mallard is more important anyway.

 

City of Truro supporters

[Mr_Tilt]

So should the model have two wipers at one end? Mine only has one at both ends, in different places - I think I'm confusing myself!

 

Yes, it should. 

 

PC1 = 2 wipers

PC2 = 1 wiper

 

They're pretty small, and fragile too, worth looking in the packing to see if you can find the lost one. I'm not sure if there are any in the 'small spares package' that comes with the train.

[amwells]

Thank you!

[GRUNFOS]

Yes, it should. 

 

PC1 = 2 wipers

PC2 = 1 wiper

 

They're pretty small, and fragile too, worth looking in the packing to see if you can find the lost one. I'm not sure if there are any in the 'small spares package' that comes with the train.

There is some in the spares bag that came with mine.

[JSpencer]

Some people will disagree about Flying Scosman.

 

Mallard is more important anyway.

 

City of Truro supporters

 

Flying Scotsman was the first UK recorded 100mph with dynamometer car, however some experts interpret the data as glitch in the recording, there being a small spike at that point. However before that, the A1s were also compared with Castles leading to improvements that set the class onto becoming a world beater (as an A3).

 

Other 100 mph claims are based on time between mileposts from passengers, or the crews estimate and are hard to properly authenticate. Some engineers doubt that loco in question could have generated the power required to reach this speed, Truro being often sited as capable of about 5mph less when using what was known about the loco and some maths.

 

Papyrus set the highest speed for A3s at 108mph. Odd she was never preserved. Had Great Northern still been in original A1 or A3 condition, I suspect she would have been preserved instead. With the class disappearing fast and very few former LNER locos being saved, its no wonder Flying Scotsman quickly got saved and even put back into revenue earning on chartered specials (with a second tender).

Eventually she went to the USA (and was nearly lost) and Australia, all of which greatly boosted her fame.

 

All of Scotsmans events combined (even post BR life) have made her a very important historic artifact. These days, Tornado probably has more public limelight however.

 

The APT-E appears in lot of table books as "the future" even though most of these books were published long after the APT-E had finished testing. I don't think we hold her in the same historic relevance as Scotsman because it was a concept car for the railways and not an everyday revenue earning locomotive taking steam to the next evolutive step from the Atlantics to the A4s.

For me the APT-E holds the same relevance as the W1 as a concept, although for the APT-E some features did eventually make it into active service on the Pendalino.

[Mr_Tilt]

 

For me the APT-E holds the same relevance as the W1 as a concept, although for the APT-E some features did eventually make it into active service on the Pendalino.

 

Hmmm, as I've said numerous times before on here, the thing that's REALLY important about APT-E is not only invisible to most people, even me, but seems of little interest. Actually it's VITAL to most high speed railways world wide, not just here in the UK.

 

I'm talking about the wheel/rail interaction as studied by Prof. Alan Wickens in the late 60s and early 70s with the HSFV1 vehicle and which was taken to its logical conclusion with APT-E. That knowledge was made freely available by BR to any and all railway organisations and most of them use it to this day, the big exception being the Shin Kansen in Japan who still use conical wheel profiles, and suffer the increased maintenance work that that entails.

 

Prof. Wickens' studies showed that the wheel profile and that of the rail, together with the primary and secondary suspension characteristics, were vital to achieve good curving performance at high speeds, much higher than had previously thought possible, and THAT'S the vital thing about APT-E.

 

Very little of the E-Train's technology, apart from what I've just mentioned, went over to the Pendelinos. FIAT had ploughed their own furrow on the high speed train front at around the same time as we in BR were working on the APT project, and with the various buy-outs, mergers and sell-offs post BR, FIAT ended up with a different mix of technology, thus the 390s.

[DavidBird]

They should have read the book included with the model more closely...........

 

Then they might not have said (twice) ...

 

 

The ability to tilt actually enables the model to take curves faster, just like the real thing.

 

Of course, it doesn't, tilting is just a passenger comfort thing...

[Titan]

Hmmm, as I've said numerous times before on here, the thing that's REALLY important about APT-E is not only invisible to most people, even me, but seems of little interest. Actually it's VITAL to most high speed railways world wide, not just here in the UK.

 

I'm talking about the wheel/rail interaction as studied by Prof. Alan Wickens in the late 60s and early 70s with the HSFV1 vehicle and which was taken to its logical conclusion with APT-E. That knowledge was made freely available by BR to any and all railway organisations and most of them use it to this day, the big exception being the Shin Kansen in Japan who still use conical wheel profiles, and suffer the increased maintenance work that that entails.

 

Prof. Wickens' studies showed that the wheel profile and that of the rail, together with the primary and secondary suspension characteristics, were vital to achieve good curving performance at high speeds, much higher than had previously thought possible, and THAT'S the vital thing about APT-E.

 

Very little of the E-Train's technology, apart from what I've just mentioned, went over to the Pendelinos. FIAT had ploughed their own furrow on the high speed train front at around the same time as we in BR were working on the APT project, and with the various buy-outs, mergers and sell-offs post BR, FIAT ended up with a different mix of technology, thus the 390s.

 

 

Yes, if you try to run a train at high speed without the profiles developed by BR with the APT project this is what happens to your track after just one run...

 

 

The aftermath of the 206 mph world speed record in France in 1955. Without the APT the TGV etc. would not have been possible. Indeed the prototype TGV was also gas turbine powered and articulated, pretty much a non-tilting APT-E painted orange and with one extra car:

 

[Wolf27]

It's not just Prof Alan Wickens that studied wheel/rail interaction!

 

 

Cheers

 

Shane

[BruceV]

For those interested in the design of the Permanent Way: -

 

https://www.thepwi.org/members_area/network_rail_track_delivery_update__steve_featherstone/nr_track_delivery_update_28_may_2014/pway_design_guide_2011

 

There are a few references to tilting trains.

[Salmotrutta]

For those interested in the design of the Permanent Way: -

 

https://www.thepwi.org/members_area/network_rail_track_delivery_update__steve_featherstone/nr_track_delivery_update_28_may_2014/pway_design_guide_2011

 

There are a few references to tilting trains.

 

Very interesting booklet! Thanks for sharing!

[Bomp]

I got a note from the post man when I got home last night.  My wife has been to the post office to collect it and has sent me a photo of a parcel labelled Locomotion!  Just got to wait until my twelve hours are up and I can go home and read my book and look at my train before setting it up in the morning.  I really can't wait to get home!

[Bomp]

And in today's post (which came while I was at work but my wife at home) I have the extra coaches!  I really need to go home now.  Only another five and a half of my twelve hours remain...

[Colin_McLeod]

I'm sure your wife is impressed that you can't wait to get home to see her. ☺

[LongRail]

Unless she is on rmweb she won't know

[GarrettTheThief]

I finally got an email from Sandra. It turns out she had difficulty finding a matching deposit payment for my order. I got back to her quickly with the order number and date for the initial £50 and she said she'd get mine out ASAP.

 

I can't wait now!

[BruceV]

Found some more video of the APT-E at Luton.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0XoYxqMDT8

 

From 38.00 to 38.31

[Bomp]

I've just snuck home for my lunch and found that the Locomotion parcel was the train and the three extra trailer cars .  The second box was my 1/16 scale RC Leopard Tank .  How am I supposed to work out which to play with first when I get back home?

[Pete the Elaner]

Set up the tank & relax while you read the instructions on how to connect your APT.