Dapol "O" gauge Terrier.

[Ian J.]

I had been thinking that Dapol had done a pretty good job of the Terriers, but I've just noticed a simple but silly possible mistake: the counterbalance weights in the wheels should, as far as I'm aware, be largest on the centre driver, with smaller on the outer drivers. The pictures on facebook seem to show the larger weight on the front driver. Also, the larger weight is more taper shaped to the ends on the prototype than appears to be the case in the facebook pictures.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Ian J.

[Froxfield2012]

My photo of Boxhill on the way from Tweedsmouth to Eastleigh for restoration c 1959 shows twelve "rivets" on the tanks, none elsewhere that I can see including the raised buffers.  Incidentally, can anyone confirm that the Terrier I saw at Hayling in 1957 (32646) is indeed the loco that was formerly known as Newington and is now preserved on the IOW.  SEMG seem to think it was withdrawn in 1949 and other sources seem to vary.

[Ian J.]

46 was the LB&SCR number for Newington if I remember correctly, then became W8 on the IoW, then reverting to its mainland number of 32646 in BR ownership for work on the Hayling Island line. I think only Fenchurch had a number change, having been 72 in LB&SCR days but on coming back into the SR/BR stock had to take the different number 36.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Ian J.

[adrianbs]

Hi  All  Ian J is absolutely right about the drivers but at least that is mainly an assembly Boo Boo although the shape is certainly wrong.    Boxhill seems to have been restored twice to "original" condition, once for circa 1948 which seems to have corrected the buffer position and a paint job and then later another paint job for static display. Buffer positions and other items were modified to bring it back nearer to early condition but it still has iron brakeshoes . Slightly awkward from my point of view as I want it in 1948 condition and I think the two Dapol versions in Stroudley livery will be close to the "As built" form with wood brakeshoes

     I don't understand why the errors have crept into the smokebox as there are large numbers of photos of A1xs in the later years and whilst there are a few variations none look like the model at all.  There are short, medium and long hinge straps and many have rivets visible holding them in place  ( Sutton may be the only short variant and is probably a later bodge)   The central boss is much larger than the model  and all variants have the straps closer together so that the gap between boss and strap is narrower than the strap itself.  The most difficult fault to correct, however, will be the front plate rivet positioning.  Every A1x I can find pictures of has the rivets positioned so that there is one either side ON the horizontal centreline. This is true even when the number of rivets varies since there seems to be two main designs  48 or 52 rivets around the circumference, in either case there is one on the horizontal line but only the 48 verson has one on the vertical line. Some smokeboxes have rivets on the door itself and one ot two locos seem to miss out alternate visible rivets. It is much easier to remove rivets than to add and it would be very difficult to move all the rivets around the front face to get them correct.

    I can't quite work out why the roof is incorrect unless the original work Dapol did for the 4mm model and later the 2mm model is being used.  The G.A. drawings showing the roof are freely available, having been published in the model press and if the designers were not satisfied that they corresponded to photos there would have been no problem checking two or three of the preserved locos.

    I am just hoping I don't have to restart work on the Eric Underhill / Vulcan patterns in order to get a reasonably accurate Terrier for myself especially as there will now be few modellers who will built a kit, no matter how accurate or simple to build.         Regards  adrianbs

Edited August 11, 2014 by adrianbs

[Dava]

Mr ABS continues to dominate the threads, providing an exhausting critique of every Dapol 0 gauge model before it arrives. At least Dapol release (eventually?) new models which folks want to buy.

 

ABS models do not have a website, acquire like a black hole other ranges which disappear without trace, and have a catalogue which on their occasional appearances at shows is totally incomprehensible regarding pricing and if you dare ask, what you want is probably unavailable anyway. Tend to your own garden....

 

Dava

[Great Western]

Personally I see the Dapol o guage range as a kind of Buget range akin to hornbys railroad. It enables people who could never afford o gauge to enter into the scale without £1000s of investment.

 

I'm happy with the open wagons and pill box, I'll looking forward to the terrier.

 

Great Western

[adrianbs]

Hi all  and Dava    Bearing in mind that ABS models is a one man band and that the proprietor is well past retiring age  the fact that they still stock about 150 O gauge & 70 4mm wagon kits, 20 O gauge loco kits,  dozens of  7mm narrow gauge kits,over 150 4mm road vehicle kits, over 1000 accessory packs etc etc is not a bad tally.  Many of the ranges acquired were as the result of financial difficulties by the previous owners but many of the models were often of too low a quality to be incorporated into the range without upgrades   Modellers no longer wish to build kits as evidenced by the mad rush to buy the RTR products of certain manufacturers, irrespective of the quality. Neither they, nor ABS, models are prepared to run businesses at a loss ( it is assumed )  and in spite of the supposed demand, the more recent kits have not made a sufficient return, either due to duplication or simply the general malaise of the economy and modellers attitude to kit building.  Further introductions or reintroductions are now unlikely, the Terrier being a prime example.  Weeks had been spent researching and retooling the kit to make it a screw together accurate model but before this could be completed the RTR model was announced killing the prospects of making a return stone dead.  If modellers don't want to buy kits then manufacturers will stop making them. Many small businesses in this market sector are only part time and are largely vanity publishing with the main hope being to just break even.   

   I have not openly criticised the 3 POWs or the brake van before I had samples, contrary to what Dava claims  but in view of the standards to which they have been made I have tried to assist with some of the future models by pointing out errors in the hope they can be corrected before they are produced. Sadly, it seems that there is little or no interest being shown in my comments or those of others and the losers will be the modellers who will be buying these innaccurate models.  Others have pointed out many of the errors but have given up trying to influence the designers, believing that it is a waste of time.  My comments on RTR mass produced models are NOT   confined to one brand as, unfortunately, a similar attititude to accuracy exists with other companies. I have commented on the Flangeway Mermaid, the Hornby Magazine  Stove R and diesel brake tender, the Bachmann SR brake van and 16T minerals  plus a few remarks regarding the Hornby Gresley coaches.

   ABS attend about 12 shows a year, any more would simply be impossible as there would not be time to restock in between.  Most other shows have proved to be loss makers bearing in mind the various costs involved and the sales generated.   Huge swathes of kit ranges have disappeared, especially in 4mm, where are K's,  Nu-Cast; Cotswold; Millholme etc ??  They are not in the ABS black hole but have gone, largely because the RTR manufacturers have made duplicates. .  The same will start happening in 7mm soon if RTR gains a firmer foothold but standards may well drop dramatically if the current attitude continues.  If the rumoured RTR wagons appear, combined with those already produced there will be a dramatic drop in wagon kit sales which may mean few if any new models will appear,  especially plastic kits which need volume sales to break even. 

   ABS do not have a website as it would totally overload the system and the pricing system was designed so that changing prices on the kits every time they were increased.  was not necessary  Batch production of whitemetal kits may only occur every 5 to 15 years due to the rate of sales but the labels do not have to be changed every 2 or 3 years.  The policy from the outset was to produce a large range of products, each in small quantities to give as much variety as possible for the modellers who were really interested in accuracy and fidelity to the real thing. To remain small enough not to lose the "hands on" aspect  but large enough to survive and make a living.  It is not known what will happen to the range in 4 years as the proprietor intends to shut up shop,  perhaps the whole range will disappear into it's own black hole !!

   I don't personally care how bad some RTR wagon models are as I don't wish to buy them for myself, but I have bought some O gauge wagons to see if there was any way I could produce upgrade kits for the more sophisticated modellers. Alas there are far to many errors and the conversions would be too complex and expensive for the average modeller to contemplate a rebuild, especially if a simple plastic kit was already beyond their capabilities.

    Maybe, in the future, standards will increase to the level achieved by other companies, as promissed, but there is a very long way to go    Regards adrianbs

Edited August 12, 2014 by adrianbs

[cromptonnut]

" if RTR gains a firmer foothold but standards may well drop dramatically if the current attitude continues"

 

"I could produce upgrade kits for the more sophisticated modellers"

 

 

... and there, again, is the "elitist attitude" that puts so many people off of 7mm modelling. 

[adrianbs]

Hi  all     I wonder just how bad a model has to be to put off some RTR customers, perhaps someone could lay down the parameters so that Dapol know just exactly where they stand.     Regards  adrianbs

[cromptonnut]

Sadly Adrian what you seem to fail to grasp is that for some people, putting a kit together is something they feel beyond their skills.  Why waste £40 on a wagon kit - which I have to assemble, paint, and probably buy wheels and transfers on top - for something which I may simply make a mess of and never complete, when for slightly more I can buy a 'ready to run' wagon?

 

Accepted, it may have faults, it may have the wrong shaped rivets or brake gear not in line with the wheels, but it's a wagon, it's recognisable as "something that carried coal" (or whatever) and it enables them to run something that resembles a train.

 

Surely running a train with "inaccurate" rtr wagons is better than running no trains at all?

[HeavyDuty]

Sadly Adrian what you seem to fail to grasp is that for some people, putting a kit together is something they feel beyond their skills.  Why waste £40 on a wagon kit - which I have to assemble, paint, and probably buy wheels and transfers on top - for something which I may simply make a mess of and never complete, when for slightly more I can buy a 'ready to run' wagon?

 

Accepted, it may have faults, it may have the wrong shaped rivets or brake gear not in line with the wheels, but it's a wagon, it's recognisable as "something that carried coal" (or whatever) and it enables them to run something that resembles a train.

 

Surely running a train with "inaccurate" rtr wagons is better than running no trains at all?

The difference between railway modeling and model railways. Both are valid approaches to the hobby in my opinion.

[Roy L S]

Is there also a need to remember the price this will sell at and manage expectations accordingly?

 

There is going to be an 0 Gauge Terrier available (and hopefully later an 08 too) ready to run at around £200. That is an exceptionally competitive price which will probably attract a good number into the scale who would not otherwise have been tempted.

 

I think we need to be realistic, it will not be perfection for that money or cater exactly for precise detail differences of the numerous variants and it is not realistic to expect it to.

 

Nor do I believe it will, or is intended to compete with the likes Lionheart's own 64xx Pannier, where even the non-sound fitted one costs about £300 more.

 

These products are surely but a stepping stone into the scale?

 

Roy

Edited August 12, 2014 by Roy L S

[two tone green]

Sadly Adrian what you seem to fail to grasp is that for some people, putting a kit together is something they feel beyond their skills.  Why waste £40 on a wagon kit - which I have to assemble, paint, and probably buy wheels and transfers on top - for something which I may simply make a mess of and never complete, when for slightly more I can buy a 'ready to run' wagon?

 

Accepted, it may have faults, it may have the wrong shaped rivets or brake gear not in line with the wheels, but it's a wagon, it's recognisable as "something that carried coal" (or whatever) and it enables them to run something that resembles a train.

 

Surely running a train with "inaccurate" rtr wagons is better than running no trains at all?

 Nicely put.

 

Hells teeth, wait until the scale police rivet counters find out I have Kadee knuckle couplings on my 7 plank private owners wagons. I want to be able to shunt without having to use a second world war searchlight and a 50X magnifying glass to see three little loops of wire they call 3 link couplings that wont fit the hook on the next wagon. By the time its done the steam loco has run out of steam and the driver gone home.

 

Good luck Dapol.

 

My Heljan Deltic and private oweners wagons are just waiting nicely for the milk tankers and pill box guards van to arrive so they can hammer up the east coast main line at a ton. With the Terrier banking it will look great on the Lickey.

 

Bring it on, its just a hobby.

[cromptonnut]

These products are surely but a stepping stone into the scale?

 

Exactly my point Roy. It may be that, in a couple of years, people will feel their skills have grown sufficiently to try a wagon kit but they won't get to that stage if they haven't bought rtr first.

 

Most people here likely started out some years back with a couple of Hornby track packs, a 'set' or one of Cyril Freezer's finest.  Probably laid on some chipboard which lived under a bed or in a cupboard, grass made from dyed sawdust and bottlebrush trees.  Then they may have migrated to the garage, loft, shed or spare room and made baseboards round the walls and laid flexitrack to get better curves.  It's all part of the process of improving ones skills.

 

Unless you have come from another hobby background or model engineering, very few people would feel confident in launching straight into kits these days.  The skills needed probably aren't even taught at school any more and most of us don't have the tools required.  O gauge is still seen by many - partly due to the cost - as "beyond their capabilities" so reasonably priced rtr, such as the Dapol Terrier or 08 that compare well to a OO Hornby or Bachmann sound fitted loco suddenly becomes much more "worth a try" than spending £800 on a brass loco kit.  Why do you think Bachmann's rtr unpainted O gauge brass range didn't last long?

 

You may say it's as simple as building an Airfix kit.  I can build plastic or resin kits but it's the painting of them that lets me down - and it's a long learning curve to get to the point where I feel confident enough to try having spend large chunks of cash on buying a wagon kit, or something larger, to try those skills.

 

So rather than mess up a kit and paintstrip it so many times the thing melts, I'd rather pay a little extra for an imperfect rtr version.

 

Let's also not forget that many kits aren't necessarily perfect either.  Anyone remember the MTK "El Crappo" range?

Edited August 13, 2014 by cromptonnut

[Jenny Emily]

Dapol's venture into RTR O gauge has been the difference between my Father continuing to play with Hornby Dublo 3 rail, and starting to model in O gauge. I for one am looking forward to the Terrier turning up, as for the money it is likely to be exceptional value for people like my Father who would not build a kit and would baulk at the higher prices of other manufacturers.

 

My only dilemma is whether they will be in the shops in time to buy him one for Christmas. What controller will he need for these? Will a Gaugemaster Series E be enough or not?

[Ian J.]

I echo the thoughts that the price point for these Terriers is sufficiently low that to expect perfect detail for each variation is a bit much. However, if the opportunity exists to get an accurate representation of at least one of the regular Terriers* then I think it should be taken.

 

This is said bearing in mind that the old 4mm Terrier didn't accurately reflect any actual Terrier from real life in terms of the details and many buyers of it simply didn't/don't care at all. Of course, in 7mm all the detail is just that bit easier to see, so any errors become more noticeable.

[cromptonnut]

Of course, in 7mm all the detail is just that bit easier to see, so any errors become more noticeable.

 

If you actually know what you're looking for, of course.

 

If a loco is moving around a layout at normal viewing distance of 2-3 feet then it's a lot less noticeable, and it's only the cruel photographic close-ups that really show the worst of errors and it's just more noticeable when the model itself is bigger.

[adrianbs]

Hi All  As I read it, what a lot of you are saying is "we don't care about rivets as we can't see them at normal viewing distance,  we don't worry about accuracy because we hav'nt got a clue about the prototype,  we havn't got enough room for a proper O gauge layout so we want 3 ft radius curves and points and we don't have any money so we cannot afford anything other than rock bottom prices"   Why not go OO/4mm, You don't need the space, the models are much cheaper, you still can't see the rivets and they are probably more accurate than Dapol RTR O gauge even if you still havn't got a clue about the quality.  You even have auto couplers prefitted on all the models so that you don't have to fiddle around with those little wire loops using a searchlight and magnifying glass!!  Not only all those advantages  but as you cannot even build a plastic kit, in OO, you can buy a whole range of setrack so that you can avoid all the problems of laying flexy track  etc etc.

     Just exactly why do you find O gauge so fascinating since you seem to want to totally ignore all it's advantages.  Especally since, unless your wish list is very small, you are very unlikely to be able to buy RTR  models of many of the items you would like, no matter how long you live whereas in OO the RTR range is already vast .    I don't see Dapol announcing LBSC 4 wheel coaches or pre 1880 wagons to run with your Stroudley liveried Terrier, they are not even available in OO. Not even a Balloon coach is likely so you will either have to model the Bluebell or park it in a showcase. Similarly I see little prospect of RTR coaches  for the Hayling Island branch  or indeed other suitable coaching or freight stock apart from private owner wagons even for the Bluebell.  I suppose realism has no place on your railway anyway so it really does look like you will have to bank the Deltic and its milk tanks plus brake van with your Terrier. 

              Not my idea of a model railway or railway modelling and I can't remember seeing many layouts in the model press with that sort of train either. Best of luck anyway.

                       Regards all  adrianbs

Edited August 12, 2014 by adrianbs

[Guest 838rapid]

WoW, what a pompous attitude you have...

 

I have agreed with somethings you have said about various things,but not likely now...

 

Sir you have the attitude of a dinosaur...

 

A model railway is exactly what a person wants it to be,that's all about the rich tapestry of life.

 

You keep to your ideas and allow others the same grace,your last post sir is pompous and belittling..

[cromptonnut]

Just exactly why do you find O gauge so fascinating since you seem to want to totally ignore all it's advantages.  

 

If the only advantage you can see in O gauge is building kits... then I think you're the one ignoring the advantages.  There's a "mass" to O gauge that you just don't get in the smaller scales.  DCC sound is much more fun and realistic in the larger O gauge models, and a damn sight easier to fit as well.    For those with poor eyesight, O gauge is easier to play with (remember the concept of having fun with our toy trains?). 

 

 

 Not my idea of a model railway or railway modelling

 

Rule 1.  It's a good job we are all different otherwise the magazines would be full of GWR branch line termini and nothing else.

Edited August 12, 2014 by cromptonnut

[HeavyDuty]

Hi All  As I read it, what a lot of you are saying is "we don't care about rivets as we can't see them at normal viewing distance,  we don't worry about accuracy because we hav'nt got a clue about the prototype,  we havn't got enough room for a proper O gauge layout so we want 3 ft radius curves and points and we don't have any money so we cannot afford anything other than rock bottom prices"   Why not go OO/4mm, You don't need the space, the models are much cheaper, you still can't see the rivets and they are probably more accurate than Dapol RTR O gauge even if you still havn't got a clue about the quality.  You even have auto couplers prefitted on all the models so that you don't have to fiddle around with those little wire loops using a searchlight and magnifying glass!!  Not only all those advantages  but as you cannot even build a plastic kit, in OO, you can buy a whole range of setrack so that you can avoid all the problems of laying flexy track  etc etc.

     Just exactly why do you find O gauge so fascinating since you seem to want to totally ignore all it's advantages.  Especally since, unless your wish list is very small, you are very unlikely to be able to buy RTR  models of many of the items you would like, no matter how long you live whereas in OO the RTR range is already vast .    I don't see Dapol announcing LBSC 4 wheel coaches or pre 1880 wagons to run with your Stroudley liveried Terrier, they are not even available in OO. Not even a Balloon coach is likely so you will either have to model the Bluebell or park it in a showcase. Similarly I see little prospect of RTR coaches  for the Hayling Island branch  or indeed other suitable coaching or freight stock apart from private owner wagons even for the Bluebell.  I suppose realism has no place on your railway anyway so it really does look like you will have to bank the Deltic and its milk tanks plus brake van with your Terrier. 

              Not my idea of a model railway or railway modelling and I can't remember seeing many layouts in the model press with that sort of train either. Best of luck anyway.

                       Regards all  adrianbs

I'm more than willing to tolerate your idea of what the hobby should be, but I expect the same in return.

[BR_Blue_1986]

I can only echo what others have said, maybe having a smaller layout to show larger locos is better.

 

I have been in n and oo gauge and now in 7mm I only have a 5ft end to end until my garden layout is built. My first loco was a Heljan deltic then a Heljan 47, which I'm fully aware of detail inaccuracies, but since then I have purchased JLTRT loco kits, brass built locos to strip and repaint. Am I a rivet counter? No, do I find 7mm a much better presence on a small layout, definitely.

 

If it wasn't for the rtr companies some people seem so keen you put down because they are not perfect I wouldn't have touched a kit, therefore showing that the rtr got me intrigued at wanting to try kits and I'm certainly not a rivet counter. If I have a class 37 that has a few less rivets but looks like a 37 I'm happy.

 

A hobby is what you make it, some people are more detail focused than others. So I find that massive rant telling people to stick to 4mm totally unjustified.

 

I'm not trying to cause offence, but only say that rtr could be a better way to get people started and then be start getting kits and building confidence in want some people think is an elitist scale.

Edited August 12, 2014 by BR_Blue_1986

[Dava]

How lively this discussion has become...

 

The small model producer (or any business?) without a website has no future because people won't find you. You can easily digitise a printed catalog onto a website, unless it was hand produced on a Gutenberg platen. The era of the white metal kit is similarly almost over, being a toxic costly medium which does not give great results, deteriorating as the moulds wear out. I don't mind if I never build another one.

 

People will still build kits but as well as brass and resin increasingly they will be 3D printed, so can be very short run or even unique. This technology will just get better and cheaper. Look at the designer-makers using Shapeways, if you want a 7mm LBSC Balloon brake or anything else then you will find someone to design it on CAD if (like me) you can't yet do it yourself, so you produce your own plastic kit.

 

Railway modeling has always progressed by adapting the new technologies, its great to have affordable 7mm RTR, how lucky we are!

 

Dava

[ZiderHead]

Surely running a train with "inaccurate" rtr wagons is better than running no trains at all?

 

… and surely running a train with accurate RTR wagons is better than running one with inaccurate wagons?

 

Especially if they cost no more because the research to make them more accurate has already been done by others and is freely available, if only the manufacturer cares enough to listen?

Edited August 12, 2014 by ZiderHead

[cromptonnut]

The small model producer (or any business?) without a website has no future because people won't find you.

 

It's very prevalent in 7mm modelling because of the perceived elitism surrounding the scale, you have to be "in the know" to be able to get half of the things you want.  There are only a few specialist O gauge shows during the year and that's usually the best place to find the "Fred and a shed" type businesses who don't advertise outside of these or the specialist society magazine.