Dapol "O" gauge Terrier.

[cromptonnut]

… and surely running a train with accurate RTR wagons is better than running one with inaccurate wagons?

 

Especially if they cost no more because the research to make them more accurate has already been done by others and is freely available, if only the manufacturer cares enough to listen?

 

I guess so but it's all down to cost/benefit and perceived sales volume.  No doubt any manufacturer could make wagons with every minute detail, working brake gear and any other thing you could care to imagine, but would they sell if the unit price had to double to accommodate perfection?

 

Let's not forget that in OO for many years, all the main manufacturers have "recycled chassis" on to several different wagons where they are not strictly accurate but give a close enough representation of that particular wagon for most people at a reasonable price, and for those that want to improve their models they can still build kits or scratchbuild.

 

Some people get pleasure out of building highly detailed kits.  Some people get pleasure out of taking "off the shelf items" and improving them up.  Some are just happy to "play trains".  Why can't we all just enjoy what we do without trying to show some sort of superiority over others who aren't "doing it right" because they aren't "doing it my way"?

[two tone green]

Adrian. You post above adds to the lack of respect and tolerance for others that I had to listen to in Cleckheaton this summer at the Guild summer show.

 

The negative comments made to a person I was stood right next too about RMWeb members just shows how detached you are from the real world and other peoples views.

 

Not being able to understand posts made by others or even trying to appreciate other view points is incredible.

 

No wonder I walked away from you stand empty handed.

 

Yes have a view point but let others have one too.

[PaulRhB]

A form of perfection is possible though by missing out on details deliberately or boosting up sizes slightly, for mass production strength, on parts that can be easily removed and upgraded.

Getting major details wrong is a hazard of the various references available but surely the point of releaseing Pre Prod images is to get a chance to correct them? To be told they are wrong and ignore it is wrong but to be able to turn back to us and say we had to do it to mould it and why means we can make a buying decision based on that.

I don't think the items Adrian has mentioned so far fall into the latter category as I can't see that they create moulding difficulties because they are about position not the actual detail. A reply statement from Dapol about the decisions might help rather than a protracted discussion about it?

I'll hold my hands up as a mostly impressionistic modeller who if it looks right doesn't study all the photos to look for errors but I do notice these things on subjects I have already researched. Adrian is well known for his extensive research on models so it comes as no suprise he does notice it to me

I applaud Dapol for their entry into rtr O as it does make it more accessible but one of the reasons for choosing larger scales are the detail opportunities.

I was tempted by the Ixion models and the Terrier is likely to push me back into O if it looks ok to me. I've built Oakwood, Vulcan, Underhill, RJH locos but struggle to find time for kit building much these days so I'd rather spend my time on the layout itself or those locos kits are unlikely to appear. Would I get back into O without RTR to start it off? unlikely but having a loco and a few wagons rtr then will undoubtedly lead to picking up kits of more obscure prototypes.

Edited August 13, 2014 by PaulRhB

[adrianbs]

Hi  All    That got you going didn't it !!  I love the phrase " You have the attitude of a dinosaur"  yet strangely I feel the reverse is true, it is those modellers who are happy  to go back to the standards of the 60s who sound more like dinosaurs.  Freelance wagons with unauthentic liveries, inaccurate details and dimensions does not seem to be evolution especially when other RTR manufacturers are doing so very much better. I have never said RTR is bad, per se, just that really bad RTR is not good for the hobby. ( in the long term it is not good for the company either viz Skytrex )    I have already made it clear that I buy RTR if I think it is good value for money but I don't consider some recent products to be at all good value when similarly priced models are also available to a vastly better standard.  I wonder just how long the Dapol POWs will survive when Lionheart adds futher models to that range. The prices are so close  it is a bit like buying a Rolls Royce for only 10% more than a Ford Focus or put another way, buying nine superb models instead of ten realy poor ones.  Is it really worth having that tenth model if they all have to be so much less accurate??

      I do love the bit about the "small manufacturer with no website has no future"  Strange that!  I can't keep pace with demand and I don't even advertise, I have been in this business for 45 years now and I find that it is the quality and value for money of the product that counts in the long run. Full page advertising and websites which keep having to be updated because the proposed models have been incorrectly described or selected ( c.f. SR Brakevan ) does not hide the faults of the models, indeed they amplify them for all to see. Just have a look at Dapol's Facebook page for the new LMS?? milk tank  and then compare it with the preserved one in the NRM, there are a number of pictures on the internet.

Even some of the inscriptions on the model have been misspelt or omitted and I wonder if they will be sold like that !  The model itself is only about 35% accurate as an LMS vehicle, but don't worry, the same model will soon be available, I expect, as a  GWR milk tank and will then be nearly 60% accurate.

    Dava's comment about whitemetal seems to be somewhat premature from the state of my order book and as the years have gone by the relative cost of a wagon kit compared with a similar RTR mass produced plastic model, even when made in China, has gradually gone in favour of the W/M kit. 45 years ago a wagon kit was about 3 times the cost of an equivalent RTR model, today the kits are often cheaper.  Just wait till next years wage rises in China come into effect if their Government continues it's declared policy. we have just seen Bachmann's prices rise by 20% on average for this year and Hornby's losses  may be close to unsustainable. It is true whitemetal moulds wear out but replacement is very cheap and at least the better models are still ahead of some Dapol products even if the moulds are worn out. Most RTR models in O gauge are made in batches and many are already only available on Ebay or seconhand. I can understand modellers preordering, sight unseen, because in a few years time those models may be either very expensive or unobtainable. This will mean that new entrants to the hobby will still find only a limited range of models actually available and may have to wait years for a rerun even if it does happen or pay over the odds to get one.

   I am NOT intolerant of other modellers just because they don't count rivets etc, I have a very wide circle of friends who run everything from coarse scale steam driven piddlers to modellers even more fastidious than I am ( would you believe )  What I am intolerant of is manufacturers who foist upon the buying public seriously innaccurate models to the detriment of other firms whose products they duplicate and who are supported in this by people who declare that is the only option when it clearly is not.

Even worse is the manufacturer who pays lip service to the idea of involving the public in trying to ensure the models are accurate but then almost totally ignores any comment or information or fails to take advantage of offers to help.  If they get a model to prepro stage before anyone has seen it, then any errors may well be too expensive to correct. If they show a rather poor early CAD which appears to be accurate and then produce a model with significant differences there is no way outside assistance is going to be able to make useful comments. 

    I guess Dapol will no longer post on this forum since they have not used it to their advantage so we will never know the answers to some of the questions posed.

            Regards all  adrianbs

[Karhedron]

I wonder just how long the Dapol POWs will survive when Lionheart adds futher models to that range.

Given that Richard Webster of Lionheart is now "CME" at Dapol, are Lionheart likely to produce anything that directly competes with Dapol offerings? I know that Richard is still continuing with Lionheart but I cannot see why he would want to release anything that undermines his releases at Dapol.

[Guest 838rapid]

To reply to your response to my curt statement " You have the attitude of a dinosaur" that is a statement I stand by,in response to your quip of trying to throw it back in my direction,I have been into O Gauge since my early childhood am now 42,yeah dinosaur league here then.. Am I offended, no.

 

I did enjoy reading your comments about the perceived inaccuracies regarding to Dapols pre released milk tanks,the roof of the terrier and the private owners wagons.

 

However they did start to tire on me somewhat,especially so when you prejudged everyone and told us to go back to oo gauge,well for your information I left O and went to OO for a while although I was bored of the gauge and fancied going back to the senior scale.

 

You seem quite belligerent to the fact that a large amount of us enjoy our hobby and although we accept that there are compromises which rightly or wrongly we are prepared to accept,this is due in some ways because we have no real control of what the manufacturers produce,however we do have control on where we spend our hard earned money.

 

I wondered just how long you would take to advertise your goods,as they seem to be absolute perfection in your opinion...

 

One thing that does make me wonder is why when the jobs at Dapol were publicly advertised did you not see that as your opportunity to apply and use your excellent input to set the world right.

 

Is it just a case of being more free to shout from the sidelines and create your own self importance??.

 

I wish you good luck with your oh so excellent manufacturing company,however even if you made the wagon that was my holy grail I am afraid I could well live without it due.to your pomposity.

[adrianbs]

Hi  All   Lionheart is just about to release the 8 Plank POWs (and the coke wagon variants) which clearly duplicate the Dapol models,  He has stated they will cooperate in the future but bearing in mind he is, like me, well beyond pension age just how long is a piece of string.?  It has not been disclosed, as far as I am aware, whether he is an employee, director or a consultant at Dapol and his own web site has been showing a number of new wagon projects as well as a new loco.  I have no idea how he will cope with the workload unless the Chinese designers are still being used, in which case he will have to be very vigilant about their output if they are the same ones used for the O gauge models to date.  There has been no further information about the 3 "Modern image" wagons nor the " 8 new wagons" announced a year ago.  On top of this there are a large number of other models in various scales which are aready promissed for the near future.  The announcements rather put to shame Bachmann and Hornby so I doubt he is getting a good nights sleep very often. Given that both the 7 and 8 plank POWs will soon be covered by Lionheart that only leaves the 5 plank.   Richard will certainly not be duplicating that, as it is a work of fiction anyway, a nice accurate PO 4 or 5 plank would be welcome although the number of variations makes a choice difficult. .Perhaps an accurate SR milk tank would be a better choice, at least for me anyway.           Regards  adrianbs

Edited August 15, 2014 by adrianbs

[2mm Andy]

It's very prevalent in 7mm modelling because of the perceived elitism surrounding the scale, you have to be "in the know" to be able to get half of the things you want.  There are only a few specialist O gauge shows during the year and that's usually the best place to find the "Fred and a shed" type businesses who don't advertise outside of these or the specialist society magazine.

 

I really don't see how that can be regarded as elitism. Are the specialist O gauge (or Scalefour, 2FS, etc.) shows 'closed shop' events for members only? No - anyone can attend (aside from things like AGMs). They are fairly well advertised in the general modelling press. Most of the cottage industry manufacturers only attend specialist shows, etc. simply because of the economics. Start to factor in travel and accomodation costs to attend a show where you might only sell 2 or 3 kits, and you soon wouldn't have a business, so that's why they focus on the few specialist shows. Websites are a bit of a thorny issue, but if a trader doesn't want the hassle of maintaining a website, then that is their choice (and they would probably have to accept a lower amount of sales as part of that). I'm fairly confident that it is not a deliberate policy to keep people away from O gauge, so if people perceive that as some form of deliberate elistism then I think they are sadly mistaken.

 

Andy

[cromptonnut]

I wasn't saying that only advertising in specialist magazines or attending specialists shows was elitism, it just means that if you aren't a member of the Guild, or able to travel to their shows, then you miss out on the opportunity to even find out about their products.  It's the "unless you are in the know" factor of it.

 

I am just grateful for the Guildford group's Reading trade show, as it is at least reachable from the south of the UK.  Kettering is about as far as I am willing (or able) to drive there and back in a day, Cleckheaton and Telford are just impractical for us "down southers" unless you are able to make a weekend trip out of it.

Edited August 13, 2014 by cromptonnut

[Andy Y]

Enough arguing.

 

All I can suggest is that Adrian stops the repeated batterings and that we don't rise to the bait.

 

Lets keep it to relevant points about the respective model in the topic title.

[Neil]

Thank you, strident dogmatism isn't an attractive read.

 

I would be interested to know (perhaps Chris K could offer an insight) just how close to the finished product the first engineering prototype is likely to be and what scope there is for change before a commitment to set the machines rolling to produce a batch is undertaken?

Edited August 13, 2014 by Neil

[adrianbs]

Hi all   I think the roof dome may be on one slide although the rear gutter edge seems to be part of the cab rear for some reason.  If it is just one slide it should be easy to replace or even recut as it needs metal removing, not adding, to correct.   adrianbs

Edited August 17, 2014 by adrianbs

[Dava]

Today I got a copy of the book 'Portrait of the Terriers' by Handel Kardas, published by Ian Allan back in 1999. It cost me under £3 + post and is the second I've come across at low cost in a week. Its by far the best of the little collection of 'Terrier' books I've collected since the Dapol model was announced (well, there's been plenty of time, hasnt there!) with many photos and some drawings showing the innumerable variations these locos experienced,  recommended.

 

I've ordered my loco, the blue KESR A1 version to continue my light railway theme, which like 'Waddon' will be exported to Canada. I rather think the success of the Dapol model will hinge more on its build and running quality than the exact verisimilitude of the rivets to a particular version. Mind you, I did see one of the 'Pillbox' brake vans at £70 rrp in a shop today and it did look a bit plain and not replete with underframe detail, so we shall see.

 

Dava

[adrianbs]

Hi Dava,  The Handel  Kardas  book is certainly a worthwhile addition but  I am very suspicious of the front elevation drawing  showing  50 /32650/Whitechapel/Sutton which shows a rivetting pattern not backed up by any of the photos of that loco in the various books in my library and differs from the model prepros which in turn differ from Bodiam. It also shows a very small smokebox dart boss like an A1 which A1xs seem not to have had.  I have no idea what sources Dapol's model relied on but if accurate it is certainly atypical. The source is not one I  have found when it comes to certain aspects of the detailing and certainly not for the A1x locos they have announced.   The drawing is reproduced from the Colin Binnie booklet on Terriers which is very useful indeed but insufficient for an accurate RTR or kit 7mm A1x Loco.  This I found out, following various safaris to the Bluebell and the KESR, when I went armed with photocopies of various pages to add accurate measurements and notes. 

 

As has been said on another forum it would be acceptable if Dapol made an accurate model of at least one particular prototype, preferably one which can be easily altered to represent others or is virtually identical. To make a model which has inaccuracies which are not found at all and which make modification extremely difficult is a great shame. They have left it too late to alter things, so it seems, but have not given modellers any chance to comment as they have altered the original 2012 CAD to produce the prepro which has only just been unveiled. The original CAD of the A1x was not good enough to see some detail and only one view was shown of an I.O.W version which has not been proceeded with in any case.  They have just used the "excuse" that they had to make the Milk tanks  "Generic"  (i.e. inaccurate )  for commercial reasons so it will be interesting to hear their reasons if the Terrier also has unnecesary errors.  I have 3 models on order but fortunately the 2 for me are A1s and the 3rd is for Portishead which will be having all the rivets removed, thereby making some errors disappear !!

                 Regards all adrianbs

    

Edited August 24, 2014 by adrianbs

[jjb1970]

This is an affordable O gauge model, OK it may not be perfect but it will be a lot better than most people will be able to achieve from a kit and it undeniably looks like a terrier. If this hooks people on O gauge then it will be another engine to grow the scale by opening it up to people who feel intimidated by kits and cannot afford to keep paying custom builders to build and paint kits for everything they'd want/need for a layout. Some of the people this could draw into O gauge may then very well go onto kit building and higher end models. I think the efforts Dapol (and others such as Ixion and Heljan) to bring a range of relatively affordable, good value O gauge RTR to the market should be welcomed even if they do have some short comings.

[Dava]

According to Tower Models this afternoon, they expect delivery about 2 months after the final prototypes which they've not yet seen, so maybe November at best, or before Christmas?

 

Dava

[hartleymartin]

I muat applaud the recent efforts that manufacturers have made in RTR O scale. I have been in the hobby for aboit 15 years, moving to O gauge 10 years ago. Having an RTR Loco (or 3 or 4) has helped me along considerably. Ive been building wagons to go with the locomotives and even pulled a couple of locos apart to do a respray. At the end of the day I can put a model in front of anyone and they'll recognise it and it still brings me many happy hours enjoting the hobby.

[Great Western]

I'd like to think if I had the knowledge so people on here do about the prototype and the time to write reams and reams of comment, I'd write or email Dapol and Lobby them to incorporate my observations in to the finished model.

 

There is time now to do this for the Class 08 and any new models, or we could just wait and shout from the ring side at every mistake and say how totally the thing is.

 

Great Western

[adrianbs]

Hi  Great Western,  I've tried that,  direct to RW,  as I have known him from when he was still at Ratio.   He is, as far as I can tell, being overuled and with regard to other models about which I have contacted Dapol direct the reply has been that thay basically say"thank you for your comments but we must be making satisfactory models  because they sell well ". They have corrected a few inaccuracies on their web page but that is all so far.  I wait to see if my assistance with the Hornby Magazine diesel brake tender bears fruit, so far there has been no further update and they have been somewhat evasive about any alterations.  

 

     At the moment I am hoping to see if they manage to correct faults on the Terrier but they have made no comment, so far, about the problems that I have pointed out on the Prepro illustrations.    The O8 appears to have been Laser scanned,  from the early CADs,  but whether what is shown on the CADs is translated into the model is still an unknown. The one and only CAD for the Terrier, that had been shown,  has certainly not resulted in the prepro looking the same, you can check that for yourself with regard to the smokebox front of the A1x, indeed the model is no longer an I.O.W loco with extended bunker and original splashers..  If they show CADs which they do not use, or fail to give accurate information about their intentions, until it is too late, then they leave themselves open to any criticism that heads their way. 

   

    Dave Jones appeared to be willing to communicate with modellers but comments which were made were not acted on. Whose fault that was I have no idea but if they were just paying lip service to the idea of participation, by those with the necessary knowledge, then it has backfired rather badly to the disadvantage of  Joe Public in the main.

                      Regards all  adrianbs

[Paul Cram]

I do find this sniping by people who are happy with inaccurate models wearing. Personally I want to know if a model is accurate or not and welcome that information form whoever can supply it so that i can make an informed decision of whether to buy or not. If you are happy with any old rubbish then good, but leave those who are trying for better alone.

[jjb1970]

I do find this sniping by people who are happy with inaccurate models wearing. Personally I want to know if a model is accurate or not and welcome that information form whoever can supply it so that i can make an informed decision of whether to buy or not. If you are happy with any old rubbish then good, but leave those who are trying for better alone.

 

That is a bit of a misrepresentation. For a start, I don't think anybody is happy with inaccuracy, everybody wants a model to look like the prototype and that infers at least some degree of accuracy. People make a decision on where to compromise between what is acceptable and absolute accuracy, considering running quality, accuracy, cost, availability, robustness and probably lots more. Every model is a compromise at some level and I see very, very few models that can not be criticised at some level if you really want to find fault. If the model looks like a good representation of the prototype many are willing to make their own judgement of whether or not it is acceptable based on their own sensitivities to things like cost and realism. If you are at the extreme end of wanting the highest level of accuracy then that is your choice and you have every right to be of that opinion just as others have every right to decide that for £200 RTR they can accept the model not being perfect. Nobody objects to criticism of any model, what I think people dislike is criticism which becomes intolerant of any other opinion. What is rubbish? I would bet money that this RTR Terrier will be better finished and run better than many kit built models that admittedly have the potential to be better than the Dapol version. On leaving alone, I agree that if you are not happy with the model then you should be left alone to not buy it, the converse is true and people that see this for what it is, a nice good value little model which is a nice way to dip a toe into O gauge should be left alone to enjoy it without being dismissed as idiots who are happy with any old rubbish.

[Paul Cram]

That is a bit of a misrepresentation. For a start, I don't think anybody is happy with inaccuracy, everybody wants a model to look like the prototype and that infers at least some degree of accuracy. People make a decision on where to compromise between what is acceptable and absolute accuracy, considering running quality, accuracy, cost, availability, robustness and probably lots more. Every model is a compromise at some level and I see very, very few models that can not be criticised at some level if you really want to find fault. If the model looks like a good representation of the prototype many are willing to make their own judgement of whether or not it is acceptable based on their own sensitivities to things like cost and realism. If you are at the extreme end of wanting the highest level of accuracy then that is your choice and you have every right to be of that opinion just as others have every right to decide that for £200 RTR they can accept the model not being perfect. Nobody objects to criticism of any model, what I think people dislike is criticism which becomes intolerant of any other opinion. What is rubbish? I would bet money that this RTR Terrier will be better finished and run better than many kit built models that admittedly have the potential to be better than the Dapol version. On leaving alone, I agree that if you are not happy with the model then you should be left alone to not buy it, the converse is true and people that see this for what it is, a nice good value little model which is a nice way to dip a toe into O gauge should be left alone to enjoy it without being dismissed as idiots who are happy with any old rubbish.

There have been many on the various threads saying they are happy with an inaccurate model and don't wish to be told about it's inaccuracies. I don't see that saying things are wrong is intolerant of these views rather it is they who are intolerant of people stating facts about the errors within. If you are happy with the model as is fine but leave others to highlight the errors for those that find these things important.

[Neil]

It's often the tone of the criticism rather than the factual content which grates. Even a simple, non-judgemental list can give an impression of pedantic point scoring if there isn't some attempt to put the 'errors and omissions' into perspective. A good review takes into account the sensibilities of its intended audience. Here on RMweb that'll be a pretty broad sweep of interests, abilities and tastes.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Neil

[br2975]

I do find this sniping by people who are happy with inaccurate models wearing. Personally I want to know if a model is accurate or not and welcome that information form whoever can supply it so that i can make an informed decision of whether to buy or not. If you are happy with any old rubbish then good, but leave those who are trying for better alone.

 

Fine

.

Let's say manufacturer 'A' releases a ready to run 'OO' 4mm scale model of a GW/BR diesel shunter 15101-15106. 

.

From a normal viewing and operating distance the model appears to be an exact copy of the prototype.

.

It runs silently, and smooth - just what one wants of a low speed shunter.

.

Then, an expert picks it up off the track and carefully examines it against published plans.

.

A-ha ....... the lifting rings on the bonnet top panels are blind, not drilled out.

.

The cab windows are 0.5mm to small.

.

Taking the cab apart we see that the manufacturer has used the console from their earlier Class 08 shunter.

 

But these anomalies are only apparent under close scrutiny, when one is in possession of the relevant elevations and measuring equipment and not from the generally accepted 3'0" viewing distance.

.

Putting it another way

.

My Ian Allan Combined Volumes tell me I saw all 74 Westerns by 1970.

.

Trix produced a model that wasn't quite HO and wasn't quite OO, but looked the part compared to other products of the time.

.

Then along came the Hornby version, no comment.......................................

.

Lima saw a chance, joined the race but dropped the baton, least said...............

.

Then, along came Heljan who by allowing for developments in the industry produced what was to many, the definitive Western model.

 

Having seen all 74 'Westerns' many times, it looked like a Western to me, and I was satisfied.

.

Unfortunately, my complacency was dashed when those more expert in the field than I, who may have only seen D1015 and its preserved bretheren, cast their more experienced and knowledgeable eye over the model, and deemed it all but a flop and those, like me, who had welcomed it were left with a sense of insecurity and (as with many other products before, and since) made to feel inadequate as modellers for accepting such a poor rendition of the prototype.

.

Then, Dapol took up the reins......................................

 

Hopefully, some readers will grasp where "I'm coming from"

 

Others will respond in an almost predictable tone.

.

Brian R

Edited August 29, 2014 by br2975

[The Stationmaster]

I like that Brian - says it how it really was.  I even bought Trix coaches to go with my Trix Western.  As it happened I preferred the look of the Lima one to the Hornby alternative for various reasons but that is by-the-by in the context of your explanation of how things have changed over the years.

 

(And I saw all the Swindon built ones in A Shop - from the tubes upwards plus, obviously, all of them in traffic).