Dapol "O" gauge Terrier.

[Dava]

Given the size of the Gauge 0 market, I dont think we'll get more than one shot at a popularly priced RTR 'Terrier', so hopefully it will be a good one. 

 

Dava

[adrianbs]

Hi all   One of the very first kits in O gauge was a Terrier, and it's still available !!  There have been, I think, 5 more since and a 6th was on it's way. I guess over 1000 must be out there somewhere, although many may have been abandoned and binned.  I imagine there must be demand for between 500 and 1000 more but only if another half dozen livery variants including IOW ones appear.  I am not sure how much net profit that will generate bearing in mind that the equivalent of nearly 2 bodies and one chassis are needed to produce the variants.  Even then I assume many locos will either have to have some anomalies or errors if additional tooling is not produced.  It is difficult to assess how fast they sell after the initial rush, especially if Dapol's predicted price rise is significant.  Dava is right about "One Shot"  and if it is not right there may never be a later replacement, even in kit form      Regards adrianbs

Edited August 29, 2014 by adrianbs

[jjb1970]

I think the big question is to what extent a range of affordable RTR can grow the hobby. If the O gauge hobby remains static in terms of numbers then I suspect this will be quite a short experiment from Dapol or alernatively their prices will go up to compensate for low volumes. If they can grow the market which appears to be one of the underpinning ideas for this foray into O then existing demand scenarios are not really relevant. Whether they will succeed in creating new demand will be shown in time, I really do not know. I hope they do, there are a lot of modellers who would love to do something in O but are put off by the costs and having to work with kits for almost everything. By going for small prototypes suitable for a small low-ish cost first attempt at doing O I think they have made a sensible choice if they want to grow the market by hooking new entrants. If you buy one of these and a few RTR wagons to make a little end to end or O gauge micro layout (micro being very much a relative term in O......) then it still won't be cheap but it is within the realms of many thinking "I'll have a go and see how it goes.." and if it doesn't go well they can sell the stock (even if they don't get much for it) and aren't risking ending up with a few half built kits. If they can get people on this hook then it could really grow O gauge and the kit manufacturers should benefit greatly as some of those people look beyond what they can buy RTR. Heljan seem to have found a nice niche for their RTR O gauge models although they decided on a very different strategy in going for modern diesels and jumping straight into big main line trains rather than building up from small stuff.

[adrianbs]

Hi all    Much of what jjb1970 says is very true but has to be considered against other factors as well. There is a huge amount of very affordable RTR O gauge already available on Ebay and also at the larger O gauge shows. Most of the equivalent wagons to those offfered by Dapol can be found at similar or lower prices and, provided care is taken with checking the standard, the accuracy and detail may well greatly exceed that of the Dapol model.  Large collections of models come onto the market all the time, often as a result of age or the passing of a modeller, indeed one of my late friends has left about 150 wagons 50 passenger vehicles and 20+ locos. Almost all of these I would buy in preference to a Dapol model. There is much greater variety available since most are made from kits where the choice is in the hundreds rather than only a handful of RTR types, many are unique scratch built models or built kits which will never be available as RTR, no matter how long one is prepared to wait.  Dapol's current introduction rate is running at about two new designs or less per year and this will no doubt drop once they have skimmed off all the cream of the models that will be profitable. There must now be in excess of 500 wagon kit types available already so it would take 250 years for Dapol to provide that sort of range.

 

      There has been no bar to modellers wanting to go "O Gauge" for some decades because they can't kit or scratchbuild, nor because they do not have deep pockets. Many modellers only start modelling at or just before retiring so the average life span of their modelling activities is probably less than 20 years. Their models are then recycled,  some are scrapped, some rebuilt and new models obtained.  I have no connection with the company but Powsides offer a far larger range of RTR PO wagons than Dapol, and at similar prices, especially bearing in mind the Powsides models are in general significantly more accurate.  Nobody has run around like headless chickens saying Powsides are the best thing that has happened in O gauge for decades.  Dapol have not added anything of great value to the range of models already available and the standards they have adopted have been well behind those of most existing products.

         Regards all  adrianbs

[mopar]

What's your opinion of Heljan's efforts?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I like that Brian - says it how it really was.  I even bought Trix coaches to go with my Trix Western.  As it happened I preferred the look of the Lima one to the Hornby alternative for various reasons but that is by-the-by in the context of your explanation of how things have changed over the years.

 

(And I saw all the Swindon built ones in A Shop - from the tubes upwards plus, obviously, all of them in traffic).

I never saw D1066 - still can't get over it.....

 

I painted my Trix Western as D1000 in Desert Sand livery - the lighter colour makes it look somehow slightly bigger - honest!

[Mike Bellamy]

I think the big question is to what extent a range of affordable RTR can grow the hobby. If the O gauge hobby remains static in terms of numbers then I suspect this will be quite a short experiment from Dapol

 

 

Well it's certainly working for Ixion who have sold over 1000 Hudswell Clarke locos and have announced that they are producing more (in a different green livery), they have another steam loco in the planning stages and may also do a re-run of the Manning Wardle as well. Affordable ready to run is already growing the hobby - not everyone wants to be a kit builder or can afford to buy kit built stock as an alternative to what's available off the shelf - even if some of it doesn't pass the rivet counters test!

 

 

 

 

.

[adrianbs]

Hi all   Mike Bellamy seems not to have read my post fully, I did say much of what is available as kitbuilt RTR is at similar prices to Dapol. My late friends wagons are being sold at around the same price for equivalent RTR types, obviously much more complex models will be more expensive but so they would be from Dapol.   I recently purchased a 6W milk tanker and a petrol tank wagon for less than the price of a Dapol Milk tank.  Since both were superbly made from the excellent Slaters kits they are extremely accurate and far better detailed than their RTR equivalent.  On that basis I cannot see why they are not affordable.  .The cost of "secondhand" wagons has only increased slightly in reat terms over the last 50 years but the standard has seen a dramatic improvement in that time, entirely due to the vast increase in the range of accurate kits. Even the least accurate kits are generally better than Dapol in that respect.   Whilst not all S/H models are well built, those that are not, are often a cheap way of trying ones hand at modifying to get them up to standard.  Many S/H wagons cost little more than a set of wheels and couplings but a bit of cannibalisation plus a few components added from the various accessory ranges can often produce very satisfactory models.  I know because I do it myself if I see something suitable.

 

      Dapols entry into the market in terms of cheap locos has, as yet, had no effect, they have not yet actually got any into customers hands  !!  It is therefore difficult to assess how much that will grow the market.  Ixxion have certainly  sold a significant number of locos but are nowhere near the output of Heljan as yet.   I am not sure that Heljan have, over the last decade, dramatically increased the overall market. They have certainly destroyed the sales of many kit manufacturers and seen off Skytrex in that sector, but the Guild membership has shown no great net increase, nor has attendance at the major GOG shows,  It is pointless arguing that not all O gaugers are Guild members and that there may be many more non members, there are no figures available on which to base that.   There have always been many non members either on cost grounds or by inclination and I have never seen any attempt to accurately show the numbers. Even rough estimates vary wildly from half as many again to 4 or 5 times as many..

 

    As a quick reply to Mopar, Heljans models are a curates egg.  I would have bought a significant number of the Mk 1 coaches  but  1) they are inaccurate,  2) they are unsuitable for the period up to 1960+    3) they have not produced a sensible selection of designs  and 4) the length of time they will be available and the projected range is totally unknown so it is impossible to assess if the required types will be available when one can afford them or indeed ever produced at all.    I have no interest in the diesels but I have heard about various problems with the gears and some small anomalies with the models themselves. In general the locos seem good value for money and fairly accurate overall.  The new wagons I have no requirement for, but having examined one without having drawings to check against they seem to be a much better proposition that Dapol models but only suitable for the very late steam era onwards. 

 

       Regards all  adrianbs

Edited August 31, 2014 by adrianbs

[Ryde-on-time]

Hi all   Mike Bellamy seems not to have read my post fully, I did say much of what is available as kitbuilt RTR is at similar prices to Dapol......

 

 

       Regards all  adrianbs

Hi. A good point but a problem with buying second hand kit built items is that, from my experience, people who struggle to make kits are equally bad at choosing second hand items.

 

A couple of examples from the club I belong to are when someone brought in a wagon which looked absolutely superb. Shame that it was twisted and rocked by more than the depth of the flange, hence there was no chance of it staying on the track

 

The second example is when someone bought a class 47 diesel built from an etched brass kit which looking stunning in red RES livery. After running on its own to check its smooth running it was placed on the track with a train of 6 coaches. Power was applied and the engine slowly gathered speed but the coaches hadn't moved. A closer look revealed that the locos cab front and buffer beam were still attached to the coaches. The beautiful looking (and quite expensive) class 47 had been superglued together and soon started started to disassemble itself further! I ended up rebuilding it (I felt sorry for the chap) but I think it would have been easier to start with a new kit

[adrianbs]

Hi Ryde-on-time   I did say that not all models are as good as they should be so when you buy something you do what is always recommended, take the sellers details and if the model proves faulty you ask for a refund. If they are not willing to accept responsibilty, walk away.   I have just returned a Dapol  brakevan  to Gaugemaster for a full refund inc. post as the model was not as described.   Ebay has the same protection automatically so may be safer than a market trader who might dispute the problem. That is one of the reasons manufacturers and retailers get away with sub-standard products, Joe Public does not exercise his rights.  It would not take long for companies or individuals to change their ways if customers behaved as they have every right to.

 

  People who struggle to make kits are often equally bad at knowing if an RTR model is good value for money.  Two people on the Dapol Pillbox brakevan forum received models with bits dropping off,  did they send them back ??  NO they did not, but were trying to repair them,  possibly invalidating  the guarantee.

       Regards all  adrianbs  

[Mike Bellamy]

Mike Bellamy seems not to have read my post fully,    

Dapols entry into the market in terms of cheap locos has, as yet, had no effect, they have not yet actually got any into customers hands  !!  It is therefore difficult to assess how much that will grow the market.  Ixxion have certainly  sold a significant number of locos but are nowhere near the output of Heljan as yet.

I was responding to the posting from JJB1970 which is why I quoted the extract from what he had said. As we are in a topic about the Terrier, I was also talking about ready to run locos - I appreciate all you say about buying second hand built up wagon kits as I have several but I saw Ixion as a way to make a start with a small loco - personally there is nothing produced by Heljan that is of interest to me and I have no idea how many they have sold - at least Chris Klein of Ixion is very open about their business and the number of models sold.

[jjb1970]

I take the point on the availability of S/H models as an alternative to kit building and also a pool of less expensive models. That is certainly a great resource although I've tended to find properly good kit built models are generally not cheap and there is always that concern at how good the kit builder has been. If you buy from a trusted dealer then the dealer can often give a pretty good opinion of kit built models they've bought in S/H (good dealers tend to appreciate that gilding the lily so to speak to offload stinkers to the uninformed is counter productive long term) or at least warn you that it is kit built and sold as seen but I'd be more hesitant about buying kit built models via EBay and other such sources. If you can see the model then you can make your own decision about what you think of it, ask to see a test track run etc,unless there are good high res pictures from a number of angles it is hard to get the same feel if buying mail order. Alternatively, if you know who built it then that may give you enough confidence to buy. I know there are buyer protection schemes but those can get a bit messy.

I also wasn't that impressed by the Heljan Mk.1 coaches but I have found some of their diesels to be very well done when admiring them when bought by friends. They seem to run well and the finish is good. Haven't had the pleasure of seeing the Ixion models in the flesh yet but they get good reviews. I have a few times wavered and been close to succumbing to some of the Heljan diesels but have resisted so far. My worry is where it could go cost wise, much as I'd love to indulge myself with O gauge I can't afford to and I fear if I did buy a 47 or Western or something it'd be the start of a long and slippery road I'd rather avoid at the moment at least.

[Great Western]

Seeing as the Pillbox thread has been locked, can we please not get this one locked to? The real production item hasn't even hit our shores yet. Lets just wait and see please?

 

For information, I have no dealings or interest in or with Dapol, I'm merely an excited future O gauge trainset player (note trainset, not modeller) who is very much looking forward to playing with a 7 mm scale model that looks like a Terrier to my untrained eye.

 

Kind Regards

 

Great Western.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Great Western

[br2975]

I never saw D1066 - still can't get over it.....

 

I painted my Trix Western as D1000 in Desert Sand livery - the lighter colour makes it look somehow slightly bigger - honest!

 

If you ran the Trix Western with a rake of the Trix Mk.1 coaches (which were also good for their time) the illusion was maintained.

.

Brian R

[Kickstart]

Hi

 

The Terrier had tempted me. Looked at the prototypes this weekend at Telford and decided I liked them (they did mention there are a few changes being done - such as the hand rails into the cab). And at the ~£170 that some traders are doing pre orders at they are a bargain. So ordered one.

 

All the best

 

Keith

[Jeremy]

I am fully in agreement with Adrian here.

 

I started in 0 gauge in 2008, the first model I purchased was a kit built Parkside Dundas 25T Brake Van s/h off e-bay - cost ? £ 38.50 plus p+p. Built, painted, weathered and ready to run! Not much more than the price of the unbuilt kit.

 

That's half the price of a R-T-R Dapol offering, and not much more than 2 OO coaches.

 

Since then I've purchased plenty more s/h wagons, and if one arrives in a poor state I take my tools to it and fix it, even if that means purchasing a new kit to cannabalise for spare parts. I've repaired broken brake gear, replaced and re-sprayed roofs, weathered, added weight, adjusted axlebox heights to eliminate 'wobble', straightened or exchanged wonky wheels, changed couplings etc. The only skill you need is the confidence to snap/file/cut/unsolder off the offending part and replace it with a brand new one. That's no skill at all, just a realisation that you cannot make an omlette without breaking eggs! If you can build a kit, it doesn't matter if it's in OO, O or from Airfix, you can build a kit! A Parkside Dundas kit is not any harder than a Hornby 'Dunster' station. The problem is that with the resin building ranges, modellers are losing these skills, and the cheap kits with which to develop them.

 

Dapol's new models do worry me however. I was disappointed with their open wagons, and I have agreed with all the coments Adrian has made on accuracy regarding the SR brake van. Just because it's O and not OO doesn't mean I will accept a lowering of standards in model fidelity. If they are adopting the 'Skytrex' approach to accuracy then the modern consumer, used to the fidelity of their OO models, won't put up with a range of models where the errors are not only there, but glaringly obvious and can be spotted by anyone with a keen and critical sense of observation.

 

Bachmann ultimately failed with their O gauge range because of a commercial realisation that the market just wasn't there. In the main their models were tremendous value and very accurate - Dapol wil have to at least match, and ideally exceed, this level of performance to succeed long term, and to do this at a low cost is going to be extremely challenging.

[Jeremy]

" if RTR gains a firmer foothold but standards may well drop dramatically if the current attitude continues"

 

"I could produce upgrade kits for the more sophisticated modellers"

 

 

... and there, again, is the "elitist attitude" that puts so many people off of 7mm modelling. "

 

 

 

Not at all, there is nothing 'elitist' about wanting something to be 'the best it can be'. Reality should not in itself be a reason to thwart ambition.

 

All manufacturers should attempt to achieve the best possible model they can, given that in this day and age we can laser scan, access preserved examples, purchase original works drawings from resources like the NRM, etc. A manufacturer who gets it wrong, gets it wrong, full stop.

 

Who today would choose to purchase a Lima model of a Deltic, in preference to a Bachmann? Very few I'll wager, regardless of price differential. But in O gauge is it acceptable that a manufacturer should make the same kind of errors that Lima were making way back when, especially when you are shelling out £ 200 for a model? Not in my book it isn't.

 

Some degree of compromise is always present, but the mistakes Dapol have made not just with their current range, but also with previous offerings ( anyone care to remember the reliability and running of their 4mm Pendelino ) do not bode well. Wether this stems from their senior management, or is a company 'culture' I don't know, but it seems to me we should be supportive of those who seek to ensure standards of accuracy, reliabilty and quality do not slip.

 

Yes O gauge offers all the percieved benfits of 'presence', but it also offers the benefit of improvement in detail, and fidelity to prototype modelled. That the models should be accurate is surely a given, considering that Bachmann, Hornby and Heljan have made huge strides forward in OO from what Lima were offering less than 15 years ago or so.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Jeremy

[Mike Bellamy]

 

 

Bachmann ultimately failed with their O gauge range because of a commercial realisation that the market just wasn't there. 

 

 

I think Ixion have proved that argument to be wrong with sales of well over 1000 Hudswell Clarkes - so they are re-running that loco in another livery, planning a limited run of the Manning Wardle and are getting ready for a mystery steam loco - hardly evidence that there isn't a market for ready to run. I wasn't very involved in 7mm at the time of the Bachmann stock but wasn't it all unpainted brass? - if so that's what would have stopped me from buying anything.

 

 

.

[F-UnitMad]

Bachmann brass was not only unpainted but I read or heard several times that they had a laquer on them which could play merry hell with painting them. That may just have been rumour, but it sure put me off saving up for any.

[tetsudofan]

Hi

 

The Terrier had tempted me. Looked at the prototypes this weekend at Telford and decided I liked them (they did mention there are a few changes being done - such as the hand rails into the cab). And at the ~£170 that some traders are doing pre orders at they are a bargain. So ordered one.

 

All the best

 

Keith

 

Yep, it tempted me as well...and I pre-ordered a Kent & East Sussex version with dcc sound - the K&ESR is my local heritage line.

 

.....just got to think how I can get Bill Bishop to let me give the loco a run on HochStadt......maybe HochStadt can get twinned with Tenterden ...and Bodiam gets sent to HochStadt to celebrate the twinning. One can but try.....  

 

(another) Keith

[Jeremy]

I think Ixion have proved that argument to be wrong with sales of well over 1000 Hudswell Clarkes - so they are re-running that loco in another livery, planning a limited run of the Manning Wardle and are getting ready for a mystery steam loco - hardly evidence that there isn't a market for ready to run. I wasn't very involved in 7mm at the time of the Bachmann stock but wasn't it all unpainted brass? - if so that's what would have stopped me from buying anything.

 

 

I agree there is a market for ready-to-run, but what we don't want is ready-to run that has inherent faults, we want ready-to-run that is accurate and reliable. Otherwise we might as well just go coarse scale and purchase Bassett-Loake or ACE Trains.

 

What really concerns me is the fact that Dapol think the O gauge market is more forgiving of errors than the OO one - it isn't, and if anything, the opposite is the case. The O gauge milk tanker is (arguably) LESS accurate than their OO one, and if anyone from Dapol is reading this, I have to say that really isn't on guys. Some parts like brake levers and tank strapping are definite improvements, but axlebox detail seems to have got worse, And as Adrian has mentioned, the whole model is a curious 'mongrel' of prototypes. Are they aiming these at the 'Thomas the Tank Engine' market or the serious railway modeller?

 

There are plenty of models in OO that have been critcised for their innaccuracies and poor running quality, Heljan mucked up the Class 33 roof profile, Bachmann had big problems with the A1 motors burning out and having to be replaced, as did Heljan on their Clayton. Dapol's carden drive on the Pendelino sheared  off which is why Hornby's version now has sole market share (lets not mention traction tyres, innacurrate pantograph and derailing issues). Even at the top end, FIA trains LMS 10000 'twins' couldn't manage a curved track because they hadn't allowed for a Cleminson style wheel arrangement or wheel side-play.

 

Dapol must try and take the 'continuous product improvement' philosophy into O gauge, or they will end up looking a bit foolish. Their company philosophy is very much focussed towards a 'toy' purchaser, but there are plenty of 'toys' already if coarse scale is your bag, even if it isn't Lima O gauge and Triang Big Big train can still be obtained at rock bottom prices 2nd hand.

 

Lets say (playing devils advocate) you saved up £500 for a Sang Cheng Brass R-T-R terrier 

 

http://www.finescalebrass.co.uk/o-gauge-locomotives/sr-terrier-lbsc-6xx-version.htm

 

http://www.finescalebrass.co.uk/o-gauge-locomotives-sr-based/sr-terrier-island-version.htm

 

, ran it for a couple of years unpainted, whilst saving up to comission a professional paint job from someone like Ian Rathbone or Simon Greenwood. That again will cost around £ 400 on a Terrier so if that's beyond you, why not have a go at painting yourself in a simple unlined Black livery. Then save up for transfers etc to add lining at a later date. The lacquer problem is a bit of a red herring here, once disassembled from the chassis a dunk in a bowl of nitromoors or similar would take all that off and you have to do something like that to prepare for the primer coat anyway. The lacquer is quite beneficial insofar as the body won't tarnish whilst you're saving up for a professional paint job!

 

What I am saying is that if you have the WILL to attempt to build the kit, attempt to paint it and to sort out any running problems, you may just end up surprising yourself and learning a very useful skill into the bargain, that you can use in many other areas of life (e.g. car body repair, home decorating, fixing appliances). There's no 'black art' here, you just have to learn to be patient! Pressing the button on an aerosol rattle can (or airbrush if you have one) is about as hard as it gets! After a few years you will have a model that will be of higher quality than an Ixion or Dapol r-t-r version, which will be plastic and diecast whitemetal for ever and a day, regardless of how much 'superdetailing' you add. The skills to build an O gauge kit are exectly the same as those required to build an OO layout, a bit of basic metal forming, soldering, filing, mounting a motor and gearbox (no harder than taking an OO Triang X04 motor model apart and putting back together), spray painting, transfers etc. If you do that already in OO, doing it in O is no harder.

 

Looking at their wagon offerings so far, and the huge number of listings on e-bay going unsold of the open wagons, it doesn't appear that Slaters or Parkside Dundas have too much to concern themselves with to date. The SR brake van is a definite improvement, but not perfect, the Milk tankers look like a step backward again, and until I see a Terrier in the flesh I very much doubt Finescale Brass have anything to worry about. When Dapol start to 'raise the bar' then I will sit up and take notice, but imho so far it hasn't yet happened. I can see no mention at all of their releases on the R-T-R section of the Gauge O Guild forum, so it appears the Guild membership are similarly unmoved and underwhelmed, even if the OO modellers looking into O gauge think they're the best thing since sliced bread ( and all O gauge modellers are elitist rivet counters ).

Edited September 12, 2014 by Jeremy

[jjb1970]

The question is not whether people want or do not want accurate models, I may be making a big assumption here but I'll go out on a limb and say everybody on this board wants their models to be accurate. The question is sensitivity to inaccuracy and what constitutes an acceptable standard. That is a subjective, personal decision which varies greatly. At a certain level if people do not recognise inaccuracies (keeping in mind many people model subjects they never saw in service and that seeing the prototype in a museum is not the same) then such inaccuracies are probably irrelevant. Another position is to recognise the faults but make a reasoned judgement of cost and whether it looks good. There is a huge range of opinions and positions on this topic. I see very few modelsthat can not be criticised at some level if you really want to, including high end kit built models.

 

I think we all want manufacturers to learn from experience and improve, however it is legitimate for some modellers to hold a position that whilst recognising faults it is still a nice model that looks like the real thing. Over the years I've bought plenty of models that have been at the recieving end of all sorts of criticism which has actually been fully justified criticism (recent examples include the Hornby OO big tanks and 4VEP) and yet when I look at them on a layout I think that when all is said and done they're nothing like as bad as the analysis might suggest and they give me a lot of pleasure. I have no issue with people deciding not to buy a model because it is not up to their minimum standard, I also have no issue with those who take a looser approach, and I suspect most of us are somewhere in the grey zone in wanting accuracy but accepting models not perfect and actually being happy with them.

 

And as with anything, peoples expectations are linked to price. At a certain level you get what you pay for and most accept that a value for money RTR model will be different to a high end brass kit or brass RTR. I think the Hornby P2 is demonstrating that many modellers will accept a model built down to a cost with compromises is price is low and it looks right.

[HeavyDuty]

I personally want to see the models be as accurate as possible; it's the sniping by certain others that I find to be unseemly. There's a world of difference between constructive criticism and snarky slams from a competitor.

[Great Western]

Confirmed via Dapol the Terriers are being delayed, livery samples aren't approved yet. So Jan/Feb 2015 is the new delivery date.

 

Great Western

[steve fay]

Just a point about Bachmann brass works they did not fail at anything, Bachmann was the face, San cheng wanted a brand people knew about to launch there range and that was that, Bachmann had no control over what San cheng produced. After the first models were released San cheng went there own way.

I'm an ex Bachmann stockist who sold this stuff

 

 

Edited to clarify the misconception that Bachmann simply gave up on their O gauge range, it was never theres in the first place.

This refers to a comment made a few posts ago.

Edited October 1, 2014 by steve fay