British Modular System - the initial ideas and debates

[cromptonnut]

Probably not - and of course there is no "four track" end in the standard (although it shouldn't be difficult to figure out) however it wouldn't take too much effort I am sure to rebuild the four track sections as double tracks instead.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Probably not - and of course there is no "four track" end in the standard (although it shouldn't be difficult to figure out) however it wouldn't take too much effort I am sure to rebuild the four track sections as double tracks instead.

 

A four-track interface is tricky.

 

Quadruple tracks can be paired by use (Fast/Slow) or by direction (Up/Down). The track spacings for each are usually different.

[FelixM]

A four-track interface is tricky.

 

Quadruple tracks can be paired by use (Fast/Slow) or by direction (Up/Down). The track spacings for each are usually different.

 

Not just the track spacings (6ft - 4ft - 6ft versus 4ft - 6ft - 4ft), the junctions are different too: http://75355.homepagemodules.de/t1108f32-Normvorschlag-UK-Module-Spur-OO-1.html#msg9178

A drawing from the very beginnings of 00Fremo.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Here's one for you all guys. Points aren't to be run from the bus (whistles and looks elsewhere), but what about turntables? Take for example the old Hornby turntable, electric operation in the DC world was by a switch removing track power and then using the train controller to control the table. In the DCC modular world would it be acceptable to either a) have a chip and seperate address for the table and connect it to the bus for people to control from their handsets, or 2) use the bus through a bridge rectifier and onto a centre off 2 way switch to provide directional power to the table (means somebody the other side of the room doesn't accidently leave it selected on their handset!) Either way, it still only uses the same juice as their being another loco on the line.

 

Discuss!

[PaulRhB]

Not running hundreds of accessories also means you don't need masses of booster power. If people start hi jacking the bus it could cause problems at the extremities so please stick with separate power supplies for everything else

You can pick up cheap supplies for around £8-10 in eBay or in Maplin that will run things and then just need an extension lead. I stuck with manual points to save carrying extras.

[cromptonnut]

For cheap power supplies you can often pick up old devices in second hand or electronic exchange shops for a couple of quid - keep the psu and bin the device! Just check the ratings.

[Satan's Goldfish]

And avoid people like me that like to over complicate things

[PaulRhB]

Yep it can seem odd if you don't know why and good to explain it here

[Suzie]

Specifying an accessory bus with a couple of extra (different coloured) banana sockets on both ends of the modules would have made life a whole lot easier and saved having loads of extension leads trailing around...

[Satan's Goldfish]

Yes DCC and the amount it can 'run' isn't at the top of my knowledge pot. The answer may work out in the long run, power supplies are cheap and I do have plenty laying around anyway. I'm pretty sure bending the laws of thermodynamics to make a turntable rotate without anyone noticing isn't in my skill set yet (but I'll keep working on it)

 

I'm not convinced there will be extension leads everywhere to run different modules in the long run, bare in mind that most modules would generally be 'line through countryside' and I'm sure others have mentioned the rod in tube approach for operating their points already.

[cromptonnut]

Basically the "capacity" of a DCC setup depends on the power supply that's running it.  Normally that's 3 amp or 5 amps in a standard setup.

 

You can get 'boosters' which take the DCC signal and give you a higher power capability but as they tend to be over £100 each I'm not rushing out to buy one just yet as I don't need one for my normal setup.

 

Unless someone brings along a diesel depot module that has 20+ sound fitted locos all ticking over, I would expect that for the foreseeable future, we should be able to cope.  Turning off sound on locos that aren't actually "running on the layout" (ie in a siding, or in a fiddle yard) will help should problems occur.  Generally voltage drop occurs when power consumption exceeds the unit's capacity, and that can corrupt the DCC signal at the far reaches of the layout.  That's why I was intending to put my "power connection" somewhere near the middle of the layout in the hope that the extremities suffer the least rather than one end or t'other suffering doubly.

[PaulRhB]

Specifying an accessory bus with a couple of extra (different coloured) banana sockets on both ends of the modules would have made life a whole lot easier and saved having loads of extension leads trailing around...

But you still need to power it with a bigger dcc system extension leads are no worse than running lots of booster supplies out on a big layout and don't cost anywhere near as much as the boosters to power it via dcc though. The suggested way means each individual has to manage their own bit and you don't need everyone to supply power ratings and then choose what to exclude.

This is a lot more flexible to organise the start up and smaller meets where a personal basic dcc system may well be adequate.

[cromptonnut]

 smaller meets where a personal basic dcc system may well be adequate.

 

Desperately hoping mine is

[Suzie]

But you still need to power it with a bigger dcc system...

 

... or a second DCC system or booster that is co-located with the main system. Boosters are not always that hard to come by, there are a lot of people that have Lenz command stations that can be used as boosters for example.

 

CDUs and end cut-off point motors and similar only use power intermittently and most other uses will be low power. If using banana sockets you retain the flexibility to just plug in a local AC supply if required when running in a meet that does not have an accessory bus.

 

Specifying an extra pair of banana sockets at each end of the module, a 2-wire link and 2-wire jumper does rather future proof the specification.

[cromptonnut]

 there are a lot of people that have Lenz command stations that can be used as boosters for example.

 

Can you let me have more information about this please, as that might be a useful option for us to have. 

[Suzie]

Can you let me have more information about this please, as that might be a useful option for us to have. 

 

It is very easy, open the front panel of the LZV100 by removing the four screws, disconnect the cable which joins the two PCBs together, refit the front panel. The CDE output terminals have now become the input terminals to the booster section and you just connect them to to CDE terminals on the command station. You probably will not want to connect the E terminal because that is the one that propagates the shutdown when a short occurs. Don't forget to connect the T terminals (on the UVJKT connectors) together as well if you have not commoned one of those terminals already.

[Suzie]

Suzie, a central 'power bus' still retains the aforementioned issue: if there's a short in one place, the whole lot stops working. Besides, what's so different (advantageous) of stringing up a big, heavy power bus with a heavy transformer and fixed voltage and a string of smaller, EU approved, power bricks which are perfectly rated for the job the owner want it to do? You still need to string up a power cable, just not the low voltage sort

 

So no, IMO that extra pair of wires is not doing the modular concept any good, because you'd oblige every module builder to put it in, even if he (she!) doesn't need it at all. And buying separate colours is expensive if you can't use the advantage of scale! (I know, I did. Buy in bulk, that is )

 

It is a poor state of affairs if the accessory bus gets shorted!

 

In the future it can be more than just a power bus, allowing wireless control of points, signals and turntables from a tablet through a command station as well as feedback if Railcom is used.

 

The cost of installation of a through bus is not high, 4x coloured socket and 4x coloured plug are £4.28 from Rapid, add a bit of 2.5mm² cable and it all costs less than a fiver.

 

The savings for some module owners who will no longer have to install half the equipment recovered from Battersea Power Station will make it all worthwhile.

 

Having the bus will encourage module owners to make their modules more interesting I am sure with the odd animated J. R. Hartley casting away and lets not forget that working windmill on top of the tunnel that would otherwise be a static exhibit.

[cromptonnut]

So, you propose every owner must spend another fiver for something he doesn't use? Plus some leads, taking another fiver, to connect it up to its neighbours.

 

Out of the 4 of us at the SECAG meet that have submitted completed forms and payments so far, we have 14 distinct boards consisting of 11 scenes.

 

Three of those currently have something that could require power - my "return to sender", a junction, a station and there'd be a fourth if I decided to electrify the points in my fiddle yard module.

 

Do other standards incorporate an accessory bus, or is there just the understanding that individual modellers provide the power they require (be it AC, DC or or SG's contraption, 16v, 12v, 5v or whatever) as required?

 

I must admit I prefer the latter - as Dutch_Master says above, it's simpler

[cromptonnut]

It is very easy, open the front panel of the LZV100 by removing the four screws, disconnect the cable which joins the two PCBs together, refit the front panel. The CDE output terminals have now become the input terminals to the booster section and you just connect them to to CDE terminals on the command station. You probably will not want to connect the E terminal because that is the one that propagates the shutdown when a short occurs. Don't forget to connect the T terminals (on the UVJKT connectors) together as well if you have not commoned one of those terminals already.

 

That sounds .... kinda surgical.  Unless an LZV100 can be picked up ridiculously cheaply of course it's probably not a practical option.  But thanks anyway.

[Satan's Goldfish]

It is a poor state of affairs if the accessory bus gets shorted!

 

In the future it can be more than just a power bus, allowing wireless control of points, signals and turntables from a tablet through a command station as well as feedback if Railcom is used.

 

The cost of installation of a through bus is not high, 4x coloured socket and 4x coloured plug are £4.28 from Rapid, add a bit of 2.5mm² cable and it all costs less than a fiver.

 

The savings for some module owners who will no longer have to install half the equipment recovered from Battersea Power Station will make it all worthwhile.

 

Having the bus will encourage module owners to make their modules more interesting I am sure with the odd animated J. R. Hartley casting away and lets not forget that working windmill on top of the tunnel that would otherwise be a static exhibit.

 

 

I suspect you may have missed the point of that installation. Firstly if a seperate power supply for that module was used then none of it would he required. If there was to be a seperate 'Dave' accessory bus then some way of isolating boards that do use it would be required. If everyone uses tortoise motors and 1 board has a fault that stops the accessory bus then all points lose the power holding them in place. Trains would still run, but how long would it take for someone to notice everything else was dead? Secondly, the linked installation is experimental with excess fitted for monitoring purposes. Any subsequent modules created with a similar system would not need all that, the necessary circuitry would very easily fit on a small PCB under the layout. Even so, that was a personal 'what if' project and not something that anyone else has suggested tackling, the cheaper quicker route to a working module is a seperate power supply, I just happened to have those spares on my shelf (back when I was into those things, 1f car audio capacitors cost over £100, nobody is going to go out and buy 1 to try and copy this!)

 

That sounds .... kinda surgical.  Unless an LZV100 can be picked up ridiculously cheaply of course it's probably not a practical option.  But thanks anyway.

If you find one and need a hand......

[Suzie]

It is all down to what people want to do of course. Other modular standards do include an accessory bus (Free-mo or NMRA-BR for example), and the cost is £5 per module including the interconnect cable for a pair of 4mm banana plugs connection (halve that for a terminal module, add 50% for a junction!)

 

I did not miss the point, I just facetiously used the example as the extreme! An accessory bus (AC or DCC) powered CDU kit is available - this has been done before.

 

Central or distributed power from a cost point of view is about the collective cost. If there are only three modules that use power, a £50 collective cost for running the power bus through all the eleven modules does not stack up (three PSUs will be cheaper), but I suspect there will be a lot more modules that need power as the format becomes popular as I am sure it will.

 

Adjusting an LZV100 to be a booster might sound surgical but it can be done in under a minute, and it takes just as long to put it back to LZV100 mode after - significantly less time than changing the lithium battery! Once you are shown how to do it you will understand.

[PaulRhB]

All valid points Suzie but it is easy to add an accessory bus later if it's deemed a problem with extra mains cables. A simple start using a small dcc system is easier for even 3 people to get together, we are considering a mini mini meet at a friends place so they can see it in action, and there's always someone who might get carried away with toys added on that cause it a problem

If this is a success I'm toying with buying two boosters for my system to have it capable of three districts so I can run or provide a spare / extra boosters for smaller meets.

Edited April 27, 2015 by PaulRhB

[cromptonnut]

Eventually I will also get my hands on a booster (as I also model in O gauge it would be useful should I ever want to have several sound locos together) but at £100+ it's simply a case of joining the queue for fiscal resources.

[FelixM]

Hi,

Canadian FREMO member Pierre Oliver has been on this side of the great pond last week and did take part at a FREMO meeting. He wrote down his experiences in his Blog, enjoy:
http://elgincarshops.blogspot.de/

[FelixM]

So once again we came together and built a layout out of our British modules. The venue was in a church in Wustermark near Berlin, the capital of Germany.


You're welcome! by – FelixM –, auf Flickr


Union Jack. Train. Telephone. by – FelixM –, auf Flickr


Short on locos by – FelixM –, auf Flickr

More photos can be found here including two short videos and even more made by my mate Markus can be found here.

There are lots of development plans for the future as well as some anglo-german cooperation in preparation.

 

Regards

Felix