RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted January 17, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) I am wondering if the Bachmann 'porthole' coaches in crimson and cream are getting near to saturation as far as sales are concerned. The TK is shown as sold out in Bachmann list but the BFK, FK and FO seem plentiful. The BTK is promised soon. I wonder if the livery is limiting sales somewhat. I am holding out for a BR maroon release and I also wonder if an LMS livery (albeit not prototypical for all versions) might be a good seller - there are several LMS liveried prototypes in preservation including those in the magnificent mixed set on the Severn Valley. The GW liveried Hawksworth's seemed to sell well for Hornby. Edited January 17, 2015 by MikeParkin65 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Thinking ahead about a year or so to the situation if and when sales of the current Bachmann 'porthole' coaches reach saturation and are remaindered or turn up cheap enough second hand, are any of these 'porthole' coaches suitable donors to modify to the previous post WW2 types by filling the round windows and reshaping them to the more usual rectangular shape? viz; D2117 CK (125 built 1946 -1947) vehicles 4330 - 4454 D2119 TK (701 built 1946 - 1950 ) vehicles 2151 - 2516 & 12750 - 13081 D2121 FK (30 built 1948) vehicles 1084 - 1113 D2123 BTK (120 built 1948-1950) vehicles 26546 - 26665 The CK and TK types if repainted could be useful to those who prefer pure LMS and are in denial that BR ever existed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iak Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 LMS chassis drawing shows 7ft 10ins over solebar angle (just under 32mm and 30mm over solebar face). Bachmann 'Porthole' coaches are 33mm over solebar angle and a smidgen less over solebar face (narrower footboards compensate). Not a lot in measurement terms but sufficient to make solebars appear not sufficiently under the body. RTR companies have to make allowances for curves that are perhaps not encountered by those who want detailed RTR models, plus there is the inherent thickness of plastic to contend with. Slimmer solebars in the vicinity where wheels need clearance is a workaround, nevertheless, I personally think Bachmann has gone slightly overboard to the detriment of appearance. Thanks Larry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Thinking ahead about a year or so to the situation if and when sales of the current Bachmann 'porthole' coaches reach saturation and are remaindered or turn up cheap enough second hand, are any of these 'porthole' coaches suitable donors to modify to the previous post WW2 types by filling the round windows and reshaping them to the more usual rectangular shape? viz; D2117 CK (125 built 1946 -1947) vehicles 4330 - 4454 D2119 TK (701 built 1946 - 1950 ) vehicles 2151 - 2516 & 12750 - 13081 D2121 FK (30 built 1948) vehicles 1084 - 1113 D2123 BTK (120 built 1948-1950) vehicles 26546 - 26665 The CK and TK types if repainted could be useful to those who prefer pure LMS and are in denial that BR ever existed. The 'Porthole' coaches mostly had the sliding windows as shown on the Bachmann models so it would be important to watch the running numbers if backdating a model. One could make a representative of the diagrams that had extra corridor doors if the circular windows were altered and deleted, but the composite and brake first could not be backdated. No 'Porthole' could be backdated to prewar, as they didn't have extra doors on the corridor side. The corridor third with a bulge in the end to take a fire extinguisher is a bit of an anomaly in blood & custard livery. I suspect this was a 1960's conversion but am happy to be proven wrong. Edited January 18, 2015 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 Personally I do not think it is worthwhile converting a Bachmann into a previous diagram when roof vents have to be changed and the body patched up to blank off porthole windows etc. But further to my previous posting, here is a Bachmann D2170 Porthole corridor third straight out of the box.... And the previous D2119 corridor third with extra corridor doors, welded underframe but, shell roof vents no porthole windows. Windows have the older style sliders. Due to shortage of materials, some of this diagram left works with fixed windows and so they might have been given new type sliding windows at a later date..... 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Thank you Coachmann. I look forward to reading all your posts. Regarding side sliding window ventilators. In bus and coach manufacturing, some coachbulders like Eastern Coachworks (ECW) had their own patented window and ventilator systems but ECW and other builders often used bought out finished windows and/or ventilators from proprietry suppliers under trade names such as Beclawat, Deans, Widney, etc. Did this happen in railway coach building? If so, are any of the ventilators used in LMS period 3 coaches proprietry types? Hopper type ventilators seem to have been introduced in buses from late-1950s. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 A 'Beclawat' magazine advert from 1961. Has anyone got a picture of similar 'Beclawat' windows in 1940s or 1950s? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Personally I do not think it is worthwhile converting a Bachmann into a previous diagram when roof vents have to be changed and the body patched up to blank off porthole windows etc. But further to my previous posting, here is a Bachmann D2170 Porthole corridor third straight out of the box.... WEB D2170.jpg And the previous D2119 corridor third with extra corridor doors, welded underframe but, shell roof vents no porthole windows. Windows have the older style sliders. Due to shortage of materials, some of this diagram left works with fixed windows and so they might have been given new type sliding windows at a later date..... WEB D2119.jpg Picture of Derby-built TK number 2300 to diagram D2119 showing torpedo roof vents and later type window ventilators. Some more excellent views on web page link on watermark. Looks very similar to Bachmann model 39-450 if circular lavatory windows filled on corridor side and reshaped to rectangular on compartment side. The round window is slightly larger in diameter than the width of a rectangular lavatory window. There is a box cover on doors of 2300 that is not on the model. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 LMS chassis drawing shows 7ft 10ins over solebar angle (just under 32mm and 30mm over solebar face). Bachmann 'Porthole' coaches are 33mm over solebar angle and a smidgen less over solebar face (narrower footboards compensate). Not a lot in measurement terms but sufficient to make solebars appear not sufficiently under the body. RTR companies have to make allowances for curves that are perhaps not encountered by those who want detailed RTR models, plus there is the inherent thickness of plastic to contend with. Slimmer solebars in the vicinity where wheels need clearance is a workaround, nevertheless, I personally think Bachmann has gone slightly overboard to the detriment of appearance. Hi Larry, Thanks for pointing this out. Presumably this hasnt affected the body dimensionally? I have currently only got 2 Portholes (a BTK and CK) but havent got round to having a proper close look at them to be honest... Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Hi 6959, what a superb picture of the TK showing the welded bogies, trusses and frames. The box cover on the door is a vent, many LMS coaches had these removed over time and if one looks at a non corridor coach you can sometimes see odd doors without vents and later no vents at all, makes for nice detail differences between coaches in a train. This seemed to happen from about mid fifties, can Coachmann confirm? The photo also shows the torpedo vents nicely I tried three times to make a good version of this 'low vent' and finally got good close-up pictures from an LMS coach being restored and now produce these:- I have a number of coaches awaiting fitting of vents both torpedo and ridge dome as well as LMS buffers though I've still to do the shell vents I need for most of the Hornby Stanier coaches, where Hornby got the shape for those is anybodies guess. Thanks for posting the photo. Dave Franks. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted October 1, 2015 Author Share Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) I sold many of my LMS coaches because of going W.Region, but I kept one 'Porthole' composite. Bachmann made such a good job of this one-off profile and it is awaiting respraying in BR maroon. Thanks 6959 for the photo of the D2119. I was aware of variations in this early post-war diagram and it is always good to have photos of actual vehicles to confirm accuracy of detail. I wonder if it is carrying its original number though.......The change to final style of window slider came somewhere in Lot 1438 Nos. 2351-2466 according to Jenkinson & Essery. Coincidentally I built one a week ago with earlier style windows and shell roof vents.... Edited October 1, 2015 by coachmann 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 A picture from same source showing another TK coach to D2119 but this time of 12992 built by BRC&W with shell vents (but may have been altered by BR). 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 Talking of Bachmann coaches, the coach below was produced by this company many years ago and represents one of the "missing" types, namely an open third. I have several and all are in Replica Railways boxes... These LMS D1915 coaches were quite advanced for their time with decent underframes. The moulded-on stepboards are far better than the (very fragile) separate fittings we have seen on models in recent years.... The undeframe features a reglator box and even the small electric box on the solebars.... Batterybox side. Even the windjammers on the sliding window vents protrude beyond the body side as on real Stanier coaches.... The interior molding has seat ends that are a separate molding... These 7½-bay 60 seat open coaches with no luggage racks were built by the LMS between 1935 and 1937 and were classed as 'excursion' stock. Probably the railway modellers most useful coach after a brake third. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevor7598 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) Coachmann's comment ( above ), concerning the LMS open third being the most useful after the brake third, cannot be faulted. Surely the BIG TWO are aware of the sales potential of such a model. The LMS open third is an obvious omission from the Hornby range, and Bachmann fixated on the word ' porthole ' so they could not have one in their range either. Had Bachmann themed their LMS coaches as 'post war ' vehicles, and replaced one of the three types of porthole firsts with an open third, they would surely have made more money than they did from the three relatively obscure firsts they did model. Just a thought. Edited February 10, 2017 by trevor7598 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Talking of Bachmann coaches, the coach below was produced by this company many years ago and represents one of the "missing" types, namely an open third. I have several and all are in Replica Railways boxes... WEB RTR D1915 1.jpg These LMS D1915 coaches were quite advanced for their time with decent underframes. The moulded-on stepboards are far better than the (very fragile) separate fittings we have seen on models in recent years.... WEB RTR D1915 2.jpg The undeframe features a reglator box and even the small electric box on the solebars.... WEB RTR D1915 3.jpg Batterybox side. Even the windjammers on the sliding window vents protrude beyond the body side as on real Stanier coaches.... WEB RTR D1915 4.jpg The interior molding has seat ends that are a separate molding... WEB RTR D1915 5.jpg These 7½-bay 60 seat open coaches with no luggage racks were built by the LMS between 1935 and 1937 and were classed as 'excursion' stock. Probably the railway modellers most useful coach after a brake third. This coach was actually commissioned by Airfix but never made it into production before the collapse of the Airfix group and takeover by Palitoy, although they did not proceed with it. The tooling had presumably been completed at least up to a point but it wasn't until Replica approached Bachmann about using the old Mainline/AIrfix tooling that they owned that the model was made - which is why it only ever appears in Replica boxes. Once Bachmann introduced the Branchline range the coach never re-appeared - I wonder if perhaps the rights for this one remained with Replica? The history of the ownership of the various tools that made Airfix/Mainline/Dapol/Replica/Bachmann models is extremely complex! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rembrow Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 This coach was actually commissioned by Airfix but never made it into production before the collapse of the Airfix group and takeover by Palitoy, although they did not proceed with it. The tooling had presumably been completed at least up to a point but it wasn't until Replica approached Bachmann about using the old Mainline/AIrfix tooling that they owned that the model was made - which is why it only ever appears in Replica boxes. Once Bachmann introduced the Branchline range the coach never re-appeared - I wonder if perhaps the rights for this one remained with Replica? The history of the ownership of the various tools that made Airfix/Mainline/Dapol/Replica/Bachmann models is extremely complex! The only part of the story that I would diverge from, is that I don't believe that the model had been tooled up under Airfix. The construction of the body moulding is pure Mainline/Bachmann with a one piece body (incl roof) and stuck in, non flush, window glazing. Airfix tooled coaches had separate roofs, and the glazing was one piece joined across the top, semi flush, pushed into the window frames and with top fittings for the roof to clip into. The chassis is also the more chunky style that Mainline/Bachmann had with their Stanier coaches, and the bogies are Mainline Stanier bogies. I too have several of these, which I've detailed and changed the roof ventilators to torpedo style LMS vents. When these came out they disappeared very quickly, but Replica had a lot that were classed as 'seconds' which they took years to sell. I never knew why they were 'seconds'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 I think there was a dispute over who owned the molds, so possibly the only way out after manufacture was to market them as 'seconds'.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rembrow Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 I think there was a dispute over who owned the molds, so possibly the only way out after manufacture was to market them as 'seconds'.... WEB Replica Railways Bachmann.jpg That makes sense, they appeared at the time Dapol was in dispute with Replica about use/ownership of the ex Mainline tools. Palitoy/Mainline had originally commissioned Kader/Bachmann to produce their models with tools being owned by Kader. In Palitoy/Mainlines last few years of operation they changed that policy and new models were from their owned tools so some Kader made models had tools owned by them and some owned by Palitoy (e.g. Class 56). I wonder if these coaches were tooled but not produced, under that regime. They were released at the same time as the Replica Mk 1 FO and BCK new tooled models. The resolution of the Dapol/Replica dispute was not made public to my knowledge, but I recall some Replica products had a small printed statement included, acknowledging the co-operation and assistance of Dapol Model Railways. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted February 12, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2017 I mentioned the lack of LMS Opens and Composites also P1/P2 stock in their range to the Man From Hornby yesterday. He hinted that they were thinking of revisiting their coach range in the future to look at what gaps may need filling. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 From my research (happy to proven wrong) P1 and P2 coaches would have had the panelled MR style livery. I have yet to see that done by any manufacturer. Bachmann in their early days produced accurate P1 Brake 3rd and Compo coaches but these had fictional livery. Even the first 2 years of PIII coach production were in the panelled livery until simplified livery came along. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted February 12, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 12, 2017 As built they would have carried the full livery, but when repainted they would get whatever style was current. In his MRJ article planning the coaches for Inkermann Street, David Jenkinson quotes seven years as a typical interval for repainting, so it's likely that the majority of PI and PII carriages were in simple livery by the start of the War. The old Mainline/Bachmann Period I carriages were fine for vehicles repainted during the 1930s, apart from the waist line which was simplified to a single yellow line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) Rivarossi did fully lined livery on two coaches, a semi-open first being one of them. They were slightly smaller than 4mm scale though. Taking 5 to 7 years between repaints, then fully lined livery would be visible throughout the 1930's. The first Stanier Period III coaches carried it when built in 1933 so one can draw ones own conclusions. Edited February 12, 2017 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevor7598 Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 I mentioned the lack of LMS Opens and Composites also P1/P2 stock in their range to the Man From Hornby yesterday. He hinted that they were thinking of revisiting their coach range in the future to look at what gaps may need filling. That's sort of good news, good work that man !. Lets hope Hornby add these two essential coach types to their range. ( along with an SR restaurant car, more ( accurate ) Gresley types, and 1951 Golden arrow Pullman cars. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted February 12, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) Here is some comparison pictures, Dapol, Mainline, Replica and for effect, Hornby.It's my opinion they are some differences...Side elevations (top to bottom is Dapol, Replica,Hornby and Mainline ).Ignoring paint finish (even though the maroons are very similar)First the frames..Mainline (with its Airfix clipfit) is the same as used by Dapol..Here's the ck for both mainline and Dapol...The giveaway is under the Dapol chassis...Now the Replica one...This is a partial step up in quality, separate roof vents and separately fitted handrails on the roof (a bit ahead of its time)..but non flush glazing. The body length is longer, indeed its .5mm short of the Hornby one, but 1mm longer over buffers.Note the Replica one, It's stamped Bachmann under neath... (top to bottom is Dapol, Replica, Hornby, Mainline).The ends are distinctly different between Dapol/Airfix and the Replica (Bachmann) & Hornby ones.., note the Replica one has separately fitting handrails on the roof..To the bogies.. the detailing, mould lines, coupling fitting, fixing pins are the same on the Mainline /Dapol ones, Replicas bogie looks the same as that used under Bachmanns Stanier full brake.Finally here is the Mainline Full brake, next to the Replica SO and the New Porthole... the Porthole has all new bogies, the other two look the same tooling.Interesting although identical the Replica bogie has a "2" on the tooling...If I were to guess the minds of the early 1980's designers... with Kader already having a Stanier full brake and having acquired a BSK and CK from Airfix, adding a Stanier SO/FO (and who knows maybe a 12 wheel dining car ???) wouldn't that complete the rake ?The 12 wheel dining car came out under Dapol but looks distinctly Airfix to me.So what would make the Replica SO a "second".. only in that to me it looks the odd one out, and the Stanier bogie having a "2" on it.With Dapol churning out the BSK/CK and Replica with a batch of odd ones... why would Bachmann retool a new rake, even with an SO in hand ?30 years later it's Hornby that have made the full rake, ironically with the dining car that looks Airfix. As the maroons across the ranges are similar, I mix and match without any issue, though the Mainline one I tend to put in a mis-matched rake of other styles as the yellow lining isnt the best. hope that helps. Edited February 12, 2017 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Rivarossi did fully lined livery on two coaches, a semi-open first being one of them. They were slightly smaller than 4mm scale though. Taking 5 to 7 years between repaints, then fully lined livery would be visible throughout the 1930's. The first Stanier Period III coaches carried it when built in 1933 so one can draw ones own conclusions. Agree Larry, Rivarossis were quite lovely. I had some but, I suppose thinking they were making a good compromise, scaled at 3.7mm: Foot. The difference was quite noticeable against 4mm stock. I have yet to see a PI or PII coach painted in livery other than MR panel style. To adb's comparison, I always found older gen coaches (Hornby's excepted ) to be accurate body wise. The underframes need addressing which can be done with Comet components. Shawplan do some laser windows to achieve the flush glazing. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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