Heljan planning a 1361 too

[Butler Henderson]

Model Rail quote Heljan as saying the 1361s are a long way off so I would expect the Kernow one to appear first, 2015 being quoted compared to TBA for Heljan.

[Ian Hargrave]

Read again,please.What I am stating is that Heljan in global terms,is as much a "cottage industry" as DJM and Kernow.

In fact,in this section of commerce,model railways per se can be defined thus in pure blanket terms....a minnow.

 

There is a genuine attempt here to keep development and production on side and under UK control.

Is it not a good thing to give it as fulsome a support as we can ?

Thus,Simon,I question your assumption of an "open and shut case" in favour of Heljan...without evidence to substantiate this claim.If you have such,please let's see it here.

If you produce it .I'll be more than happy to retract.

[Steffi_C]

Bit of a horses mouth post there

 

Im sure some of us knew you had put that effort in Mike, hence the "Why are Heljan in a better place" comment from me and I assume CK.

 

Its almost like some people actively want The Kernow MRC / DJM effort to fail for some reason of thier own .........

 

No-one's wanting the Kernow /DJM effort to fail, although quite a few here unfortunately seem to be wanting the Heljan effort to fail.

 

For most of us, we'll vote with our wallets when the models arrive.

 

 

 

[S.A.C Martin]

By that logic Ian, so are Hornby in America, Bachmann in Germany and Kato in the UK. DJ Models has no products on the shelves and He;jan does. By the definition of "cottage industry" - poorly chosen words perhaps but nevertheless an accurate description so far as product and output are measured - how else would you describe DJ Models? 

 

My evidence to substantiate "my claim" is simple. Look in any catalogue from any of the major box shifters and tell me what Heljan products are available. Now tell me what DJ Model products.

 

I cannot believe I am having to defend a point of view which states that Heljan are a model making company with product and DJ Models are not, as yet. The facts speak for themselves.

[S.A.C Martin]

*DJ Models products are available to purchase.

[S.A.C Martin]

Im assuming that DJ of SFM created some of the good things Dapol made? or is it a new Dave Jones with no track recored of making the goods?

 

I would say that Dave Jones helped create some successes as an employee of Dapol but to put all of Dapol's successes down to one man, singularly, is awfully insulting to an entire company.

 

I have respect for the man and I hope (really hope given the prototypes chosen, for purely selfish LNER modelling needs) that he succeeds - I do not wish anyone to fail in this business. I am a realist and I hope that comes across as opposed to any nonsensical idea (as as been emailed to me earlier) that I actively want British industries to fail. Far from it. If the J94 comes out and is welcomed with open arms by reviewers, I like many modellers will no doubt take the opportunity to upgrade.

 

At the same time, Dave Jones - singular - is an untried and untested commodity. He has not as yet produced any product to sell. That is a fact. It may be a difficult fact to swallow for many, but it is a fact nonetheless.

[S.A.C Martin]

He may well be untested on his own, though I dont think KMRC are,

Strange how the same person from elsewhere keeps agreeing with you isnt it?

 

I can hardly be expected to be responsible for other people's choices of likes/dislikes, surely Mickey?

[Andy Y]

 

At the same time, Dave Jones - singular - is an untried and untested commodity. He has not as yet produced any product to sell. That is a fact. It may be a difficult fact to swallow for many, but it is a fact nonetheless.

 

It will be worth taking the opportunity to come along to RMweb Live in this respect to see some specific evidence of the development progress on previously announced models to enable you to form an opinion without influence.

[The Stationmaster]

I would say that Dave Jones helped create some successes as an employee of Dapol but to put all of Dapol's successes down to one man, singularly, is awfully insulting to an entire company.

 

I have respect for the man and I hope (really hope given the prototypes chosen, for purely selfish LNER modelling needs) that he succeeds - I do not wish anyone to fail in this business. I am a realist and I hope that comes across as opposed to any nonsensical idea (as as been emailed to me earlier) that I actively want British industries to fail. Far from it. If the J94 comes out and is welcomed with open arms by reviewers, I like many modellers will no doubt take the opportunity to upgrade.

 

At the same time, Dave Jones - singular - is an untried and untested commodity. He has not as yet produced any product to sell. That is a fact. It may be a difficult fact to swallow for many, but it is a fact nonetheless.

Apparently then the fact that the Kernow O2 exists not only in EP form but powered EP form (from the same factory which made the well tank) is 'untried and untested'.  I don't know much about DJM apart from what I've read on here but my well tank works and runs well and most other purchasers of it (judging by the absence of moans on this forum) seem to be equally satisfied.  Similarly more than a few folk on this forum have seen (at Taunton) CADs of another item Kernow have in development from the same stable and have been suitably impressed. So in terms of the factory involved and what they can do there does seem to be a track record and surely that is what counts?

[Miss Prism]

What worries me is that this battle of the dock tanks will result in commercial failure for both manufacturers. The market for this loco is small. As a consequence, I fear that both manufacturers, if both decide to proceed, will cut the development and tooling costs to the bone (think 'design clever' but applied in a much more cynical fashion).

 

This looks like a no-win situation all round at the moment.

[S.A.C Martin]

Apparently then the fact that the Kernow O2 exists not only in EP form but powered EP form (from the same factory which made the well tank) is 'untried and untested'. I don't know much about DJM apart from what I've read on here but my well tank works and runs well and most other purchasers of it (judging by the absence of moans on this forum) seem to be equally satisfied. Similarly more than a few folk on this forum have seen (at Taunton) CADs of another item Kernow have in development from the same stable and have been suitably impressed. So in terms of the factory involved and what they can do there does seem to be a track record and surely that is what counts?

So you are suggesting that the O2 model has no influence or Dapols hand as a company in it at all? That it had none of the benefits of being a Dapol developed model?

 

You'll forgive me Mike but I find it difficult to reconcile that point of view. For how many years was the O2 in develi

Apparently then the fact that the Kernow O2 exists not only in EP form but powered EP form (from the same factory which made the well tank) is 'untried and untested'. I don't know much about DJM apart from what I've read on here but my well tank works and runs well and most other purchasers of it (judging by the absence of moans on this forum) seem to be equally satisfied. Similarly more than a few folk on this forum have seen (at Taunton) CADs of another item Kernow have in development from the same stable and have been suitably impressed. So in terms of the factory involved and what they can do there does seem to be a track record and surely that is what counts?

So you are suggesting that the O2 model has no influence or Dapols hand as a company in it at all? That it had none of the benefits of being a Dapol developed model?

 

You'll forgive me Mike but I find it difficult to reconcile that point of view. For how many years was the O2 in development under Dapol?

[S.A.C Martin]

What have you got against KMRC / DJM?

 

There has to be something there that is making you, Simon, go on and on about this matter.

 

Most of us correct thinknig South west types want the best, and we assume that that will come with the guidinghand of KMRC at the tiller.

 

Nothing against DJ Models at all - have you read my above post?

 

 

I would say that Dave Jones helped create some successes as an employee of Dapol but to put all of Dapol's successes down to one man, singularly, is awfully insulting to an entire company.

 

I have respect for the man and I hope (really hope given the prototypes chosen, for purely selfish LNER modelling needs) that he succeeds - I do not wish anyone to fail in this business. I am a realist and I hope that comes across as opposed to any nonsensical idea (as as been emailed to me earlier) that I actively want British industries to fail. Far from it. If the J94 comes out and is welcomed with open arms by reviewers, I like many modellers will no doubt take the opportunity to upgrade.

 

At the same time, Dave Jones - singular - is an untried and untested commodity. He has not as yet produced any product to sell. That is a fact. It may be a difficult fact to swallow for many, but it is a fact nonetheless.

 

I would say Mickey you're perhaps reading something which isn't there but I'd like to think my view is clear enough for those who want to make their own minds up to do so in a constructive manner.

 

If I can find the time to come to RMweb Live I will certainly come and ask questions and look to be better informed. At the same time I hope others can accept my skepticism for what it is - my own sense of realism (unique to myself, I am certain!) and that nothing personal or derogatory is, or has ever been, intended.

[S.A.C Martin]

which bit do you disagree with? Do tell?

 

The bit where you conveniently ignore my earlier post.

[hornbyandbf3fan]

At least you're going to get a decent model of one either way

[Ozexpatriate]

There is nothing dis-constructive about me wondering why some people seem to have a communal axe to grind with DJ Models, its not like you are all so subtle about it is it?

Dave Jones certainly established his bona fides while at Dapol. He has yet to prove himself on his own so factually stating that DJModels has not yet delivered is fair. Presuming that DJModels won't deliver is unfair.

 

I'm looking forward to the Kernow O2 and the 1361.

 

Sadly I don't think I'll be in Coventry in two weeks, but I look forward to hearing all about it.

[S.A.C Martin]

There is nothing dis-constructive about me wondering why some people seem to have a communal axe to grind with DJ Models, its not like you are all so subtle about it is it?

I know not a lot about the DJM thing but I do know there is more to this thread than you and a few "like minded frineds" having a go.... I see who is on this thread even if they dont post and then probably run back to thier high and mighty blogs to speak their intepretation of some version of a truth with no danger of being openly laughed at.

 

Send the infantry to take the first blows isnt it ? :Brave of you though to be so out of touch with that glove covering the hands that guide you

If you are suggesting none of what I am writing is off my own bat and my own thoughts, then you are wildly far off the mark.

 

I am completely unconcerned with who likes, dislikes, or otherwise, my posts and to suggest that I am some sort of soldier doing someone else's bidding is a gross misrepresentation of my views.

 

Besides: how is it in any way relevant to the debate? Moving the goalposts springs to mind.

 

I weary of the constant ducking of the issues. I have given you the courtesy of directly answering every question you have made - even in the light of some quite personal, insulting and at times rather rude and abrupt posts from you.

 

Lord knows, if the positions were reversed I am certain I would not have an account to post from now.

[S.A.C Martin]

Dave Jones certainly established his bona fides while at Dapol. He has yet to prove himself on his own so factually stating that DJModels has not yet delivered is fair. Presuming that DJModels won't deliver is unfair.

Absolutely: but the crux of my original post was NOT to presume DJ models won't deliver (which if Mickey as just one example actually read my posts, would know) but to question why people actively want Heljan to back down when they are and have been for some time already working on a similar locomotive?

 

The presumptions made of Heljan in this thread by other forum members is remarkably wide of the mark with their reputation.

 

I'm afraid once again it's been very easy for two members - the same two members in fact - to habitually twist my argument and words to suit their own agenda.

 

A pity because I've enjoying debating with other posters and have been open minded enough to accept other points of view aired that add to the debate.

[JSpencer]

Heljan can be hit or miss.

 

This year alone. Early class 33, excellent. Late class 33, they ruined it by adding an extra roof panel that does not exist, included both latches and bolts on various roof grills when only latches exist.

 

Original late class 23, ruined by having the side windows in the wrong place. Early nose class 23, perfect.

[Arthur]

Heljan can be hit or miss.

 

Exactly. Nobody wants either manufacturer to make a loss on this model but doubts exist as to whether the market will profitably support two of them.

 

Some favour a Heljan model because they have produced many models for our market, but, see above,

 

Others have an optimistic hope that a new partnership, not quite so established, might just be able to produce a much better model. We'll see, but I for one, have already put my money where my mouth is.

 

That aside, I'll continue to support Heljan when, and as, they make models which appeal to me.

[The Stationmaster]

Absolutely: but the crux of my original post was NOT to presume DJ models won't deliver (which if Mickey as just one example actually read my posts, would know) but to question why people actively want Heljan to back down when they are and have been for some time already working on a similar locomotive?

 

 

How do you know they have Simon?  Their announcement in fact suggest that they have not and it has occurred to them that the chassis are similar - which they are except in some respects of detail (although as I have already said how those detail differences are dealt with could depend very much on methods of manufacture and the use of slides in the tools - again depending on design and manufacturing method).

 

I have already pointed out - as a matter of fact - that Heljan have not (yet?) undertaken any sort of research on the remaining example of the 1361 class including access to a number of components which would be very obviously visible on a model but which are stored under lock & key.  That would suggest to me that Kernow are probably more advanced with their model they have looked at the real thing and CADs are being prepared.  I don't want to see a race as that could - as Miss P suggests - lead to corners being cut, I would far sooner see accurate tooling cut to produce a model with correct details.

 

I have also pointed out - which you seem to have ignored - the fact that the factory which will produce the Kernow model has a track record (in small British outline steam engines as it happens) as it produced the Kernow well tank and is producing the O2.  So in some respects we know what quality and attention to detail, as well as build quality, we can expect from Kernow; that is something we don't as yet know in respect of small British outline steam engines from Heljan.

 

I'm not saying who might or might not produce the better model but I do know which one has been researched in considerable depth as far as detail is concerned and until that has been done no manufacturer stands much chance of producing an accurate model.

[DJM Dave]

Hi guys,

 

Can I please ask that we play fair on Heljan here as it is their thread after all, and move any conversation on my company, myself, the Kernow 1361 and or my ability to produce and my affidavits to the DJModels section where there is a 1361 thread.

 

The eagle eyes amongst you will have noticed that I've agreed with a fair few of S.A.C. Martins points about me in this thread, but I would hope that my previous work would help alleviate any fears.

 

But no worries, I'll be at Coventry all weekend, please pop by the stand and have a view of the display and feel free to ask any questions you wish.

I'll answer all I can, I promise.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Les1952]

 

What worries me is that this battle of the dock tanks will result in commercial failure for both manufacturers. The market for this loco is small. As a consequence, I fear that both manufacturers, if both decide to proceed, will cut the development and tooling costs to the bone (think 'design clever' but applied in a much more cynical fashion).

 

This looks like a no-win situation all round at the moment.

 

 

Quite simply, whichever gets to market first will make the money.   One winner, one loser most likely.

 

 

Just don't ask me to speculate as to which that would be......

 

All the very best

les

[Steffi_C]

Quite simply, whichever gets to market first will make the money.   One winner, one loser most likely.

 

 

Just don't ask me to speculate as to which that would be......

 

History suggests that isn't the case.  Heljan would in any case be looking to sell to a wider market, via their dealer network.  If the DJM model arrives first and is available in sufficient quantity, Heljan will probably need to compete on the basis of quality and price.

 

There've been numerous examples of different manufacturers taking on the same prototype, most recently Dapol and Bachmann doing the twins.  Dapol's commission for Hattons arrived first, but both sold very well.  And that was with a class of only two locomotives.

[Butler Henderson]

The DJM one is commissioned by Kernow so the risks should rest with the retailer rather than the manufacturer.

[Sam Moss]

Heljan have just posted this on their Facebook page.....