Heljan planning a 1361 too

[dcroz]

Posted on Heljan's Facebook page today:

 

PRESS RELEASE

We have previously announced our intention to produce the GWR/BR 1366 class 0-6-0PT and we are following this with our next release which will be the GWR/BR 1361 0-6-0ST.
As we can utilise elements of the chassis from the 1366 for the 1361, it makes this a natural development in our programme. CAD has been completed and we will shortly be releasing expected delivery dates and SRP.

GWR/BR 1361 0-6-0ST
1300 - GWR 0-6-0ST 1361 in photographic grey (limited edition)
1301 - GWR 0-6-0ST 1363 in GWR green with monogram insignia 1302 - GWR 0-6-0ST 1364 in GWR green with G W R lettering
1303 - GWR 0-6-0ST 1365 in BR black with early 'lion & wheel' insignia
1304 - GWR 0-6-0ST 1363 in BR black with later 'lion & wheel' insignia

 

https://www.facebook.com/heljanas?fref=nf

Edited September 1, 2014 by dcroz

[Arthur]

When both Dapol/Hattons and Bachmann/Rails announced the LMS twins I reasoned at that time the Bachmann would be the better model and I waited for it. I made the right decision, in my opinion.

 

I am not cheer leading for anybody, I have reasoned this time that the Kernow/DJM model will be the better model. That is my opinion again and, as I stated earlier, we will see.

 

Some on this thread have been unnecessarily dismissive of the new kid on the block, some of us have taken a more supportive stance.

Again, time will tell.

[The Stationmaster]

Posted on Heljan's Facebook page today:

 

PRESS RELEASE

 

We have previously announced our intention to produce the GWR/BR 1366 class 0-6-0PT and we are following this with our next release which will be the GWR/BR 1361 0-6-0ST.

As we can utilise elements of the chassis from the 1366 for the 1361, it makes this a natural development in our programme. CAD has been completed and we will shortly be releasing expected delivery dates and SRP.

 

GWR/BR 1361 0-6-0ST

1300 - GWR 0-6-0ST 1361 in photographic grey (limited edition)

1301 - GWR 0-6-0ST 1363 in GWR green with monogram insignia 1302 - GWR 0-6-0ST 1364 in GWR green with G W R lettering

1303 - GWR 0-6-0ST 1365 in BR black with early 'lion & wheel' insignia

1304 - GWR 0-6-0ST 1363 in BR black with later 'lion & wheel' insignia

 

https://www.facebook.com/heljanas?fref=nf

Interesting to know that they have versions with noticeable visible differences under development - slides or separate parts I wonder?

[TheWeatheringMan]

Hi,

Well, well, well,

What a lot of frothing this has caused.

What seems to have slipped through the net is the point that in these times of increasing production costs and therefor retail prices, that this duplication is lunacy.

Look at the facts:

Two models of the same locomotive = divided sales = its possible neither model produces the returns required on the outlay = no money for another development = market choice reduced.

 

We have seen this before - Airfix versus Mainline versus Lima versus Hornby. Result = the first three went bust.

No, duplication may not have been the only reason but it didnt help did it.

 

Heljan have a track record of 'comming up with the goods' - OK some have had their problems but overall they have been pretty  good.

DJM has no track record at all - anything he was involved in at Dapol was as an employee doing his employers bidding. Lots of promisses made but at this stage no models. CAD images and information do not equate to hardware for modellers to see perform and get an opinion of.

 

If Kernow want a winner then perhaps a 14xx to modern standards would be a better bet and leave 'humpy' and 'tiddler' to the Danes.

 

Something that seems to have been confused here - I appologise if its me misreading something - but the Kernow Beattie 'Well Tank' was made by Dapol. This fact is what i've always assumed is behind some of the models suffering from mechanical problems and assembly faults.

In view of these matters and considering who was at Dapol at the time I feel that until we actually see and can handle/run a model from DJM we should reserve judgement on who will do a better job.

At this stage we have an unproven promise versus a well proven fact.

Regards

[Ryde-on-time]

Heljan have a track record of 'comming up with the goods' - OK some have had their problems but overall they have been pretty  good.

 

................

 

I feel that until we actually see and can handle/run a model from DJM we should reserve judgement on who will do a better job.

At this stage we have an unproven promise versus a well proven fact.

Regards

I my opinion Heljan have a reputation for coming up with some pretty naff models with obvious design flaws (amongst some good ones), they are anything but a well proven fact!

 

Look at the sample kernow O2 tank if you want to see a DJM model run

 

It would appear that Heljan have designed their 1361 tank without bothering to look at the survivor, I have more faith a company that uses all possible resources to produce a model which is as accurate as possible

[Siberian Snooper]

From what I can see neither model will suit my needs without a repaint at the very least, as I model the mid 1920's when these loco's as far as I am aware had no lettering.

[Arthur]

What seems to have slipped through the net is the point that in these times of increasing production costs and therefor retail prices, that this duplication is lunacy.

Regards

No it hasn't, see post 58.

[JSpencer]

The problem with this class is that it is niche class. A very niche class at that. I doubt the pie is big enough for 2 manufacturers, and people wanting to buy one will mostly belong to purist group who understand its historical importance (this not P2 in every table top book after all). So the best will win it IMHO in the end.

 

Newcomers wanting GW tank, will most likely go for a pannier where there is a heathy fleet to choose from.

 

I personally will not be buying either as it is not my cup of tea. I just hope it will not add another 3 year delay to my Bullied diesels (for which we have no idea who will make them now BTW) due to the race that might entail.

 

And I agree it is more a wasted resource having two people make them when both could have been on different niche models.

 

Heljan say the CADs are ready, if so they should share them and let buyers know what they intend because hiding it won't inspire confidence I feel. Showing it would provide them with info to know whether or not they onto a winner or pull out before wasting resources on a dead duck.

[railroadbill]

First one to market will obviously be stuck on the front of a magazine in W H Smiths for £8.99   Then we can stick the body on an Electrotren 0-6-0 chassis that is apparently the right size for a 1366 (or indeed 1361 presumably). Sorted.

 

Just a joke. Really.

[gwrrob]

Posted on Heljan's Facebook page today:

 

PRESS RELEASE

 

We have previously announced our intention to produce the GWR/BR 1366 class 0-6-0PT and we are following this with our next release which will be the GWR/BR 1361 0-6-0ST.

As we can utilise elements of the chassis from the 1366 for the 1361, it makes this a natural development in our programme. CAD has been completed and we will shortly be releasing expected delivery dates and SRP.

 

GWR/BR 1361 0-6-0ST

1300 - GWR 0-6-0ST 1361 in photographic grey (limited edition)

1301 - GWR 0-6-0ST 1363 in GWR green with monogram insignia 1302 - GWR 0-6-0ST 1364 in GWR green with G W R lettering

1303 - GWR 0-6-0ST 1365 in BR black with early 'lion & wheel' insignia

1304 - GWR 0-6-0ST 1363 in BR black with later 'lion & wheel' insignia

 

https://www.facebook.com/heljanas?fref=nf

 

Have I missed the 1366 versions they are planning with the relevant numbers.

[Dunsignalling]

Have I missed the 1366 versions they are planning with the relevant numbers.

If you have, so have I.

 

What worries me is that the 'race' to produce a 1361 (which I don't want, whoever makes it) will result in the 1366 (which I do) being placed on the back burner.

 

John

[Butler Henderson]

One or the other certainly needs to drop it, the Std 4 4-6-0 duplication by Bachmann and Hornby seemed to ensure bargains were readily available and Kernows DJM one will at the end of day be up against a model available from every Heljan dealer in the country, including presumably Kernow. Heljan will have a good number of guaranteed sales to modellers who think Hattons are the only place worth dealing with and Kernow could make some good press by dropping it, or are we going to see a Dapol like disagreement with Heljan.

[Arthur]

Nobody is trashing Heljan, people are just making observations that their QC is sometimes a bit off, bits falling off Garratts, CoBos wired the wrong way round. I've got both those models, all of their prototype diesels, and there are currently three other Heljan models I'll be adding to my roster.

 

They makes some fine models of sometimes unusual prototypes, long may they prosper.

 

Long may DJM prosper too, yes, a bit to prove but two major retailers are using them to commission models. Guess they know something.

[JSpencer]

I don,t think no one has disputed the running qualities of Heljan. And I have no dispute with Kernow's well tank nor Dapol a class 22 and 10000 models.

 

But I have had huge problems with Heljans build quality and accuracy over the years, to the point that I avoided buying products for 3 years.

 

Today I have 17 models from Heljan which represents easily less than 10% of my active fleet.

 

Accuracy issues:

Original 33/0. Wrong shape

New 33/0 late body, additional panel which does not exist, printed detail, latches and bolts for roof, exhaust port wrong place

DP2, cab roofs completely wrong, warped body sides around the grills

Class 23' side windows in wrong place

 

 

Build quality:

Kestrel snapped front valances

Class 28, went through 7 examples before finally accepting one with minor damage

Class 23' went through 8 examples before accepting one which had one set of diodes not working

Em1, needed repair of minor details (some debate about accuracy here too)

 

When Hattons first announced that Heljan were going to do their Garret, I thought "oh god". I happy with the result but the heavy weathering on that is anything but!

 

9 out of 17, over 50% with issues. And I do not think I am alone here. Thus why I say they are Hit and Miss....

[DJM Dave]

Hi everyone,

 

Ok. To clarify this, and I hate doing it on others threads, so apologies to Heljan

 

There is NO DJModels branded model out there, full stop ( yet) ;-)

 

However, as the only designer in my previous employ, I was responsible for getting Kernow as a client ( over dinner in a pub in Yeovilton), I designed the chassis, and oversaw other detail changes required to the laser scan etc etc.

Once reasonably happy, this was then checked by Kernow, and alterations made where requested.

 

I did the same with the ModelRail Sentinel

 

The Hatton's 10000

 

There are over the last 6 years over 10 model of the year awards won by my design, so in essence, they are produced by and for another company but I was the chief and only designer across all N gauge ( from the 9F and Hymek officially) and the OO range up to and including the class 52.

 

So it's true, there's nothing of 'mine' out there under my banner, but there is a huge amount of my work under another's.

 

You can also argue that I'm an unknown quantity in my own right as a stand alone, but conversely you can argue the other.

 

Can I climb off the fence now? I'm getting splinters ;-)

 

Hope this helps you all?

Cheers

Dave

[Les1952]

I may be looking in all the wrong places (i.e. under Heljan) but has there been ANY news of the 1366 class since December 2013?

 

Les

[TheWeatheringMan]

Hi everyone,

 

Ok. To clarify this, and I hate doing it on others threads, so apologies to Heljan

 

There is NO DJModels branded model out there, full stop ( yet) ;-)

 

However, as the only designer in my previous employ, I was responsible for getting Kernow as a client ( over dinner in a pub in Yeovilton), I designed the chassis, and oversaw other detail changes required to the laser scan etc etc.

Once reasonably happy, this was then checked by Kernow, and alterations made where requested.

 

I did the same with the ModelRail Sentinel

 

The Hatton's 10000

 

There are over the last 6 years over 10 model of the year awards won by my design, so in essence, they are produced by and for another company but I was the chief and only designer across all N gauge ( from the 9F and Hymek officially) and the OO range up to and including the class 52.

 

So it's true, there's nothing of 'mine' out there under my banner, but there is a huge amount of my work under another's.

 

You can also argue that I'm an unknown quantity in my own right as a stand alone, but conversely you can argue the other.

 

Can I climb off the fence now? I'm getting splinters ;-)

 

Hope this helps you all?

Cheers

Dave

Hi Dave,

In view of the above comments can we be assured that coupling rods falling off and cabs leaning backwards due to over length handrails forcing the cab backwards on the Well Tank will be 'designed out' in future products under your name?.

Regards

[TheWeatheringMan]

Heljan can be hit or miss.

 

This year alone. Early class 33, excellent. Late class 33, they ruined it by adding an extra roof panel that does not exist, included both latches and bolts on various roof grills when only latches exist.

 

Original late class 23, ruined by having the side windows in the wrong place. Early nose class 23, perfect.

Hi,

Lets get the facts straight if you want to make a point.

You state 'this year alone'.

The late class 23 was produced several years ago and yes a mistake was made with the window positioning and nose shape.

When Heljan decided to produce the early nose style, to their great credit they undertook (at considerable expense) new tooling having listened to the critics.

This is not 'hit and miss' as this is an example of listening, admitting mistakes and evolution of their product is it not.

 

Personally I havnt bought either 23 for my fleet as i've a couple of Silver Fox kits waiting a start.

 

If you want to see an example of what Heljan can do look at the class 15 and 16 - especially the North British - this is one of the best diesel models ever.

 

Regards

Edited September 2, 2014 by TheWeatheringMan

[Oldddudders]

No ideas about Heljan quality, and my 0298 has done ludicrously little running, so quality there is hardly certain, either. But it looks lovely. And even I managed to insert the decoder as per the instructions.

 

What I do have a view on is the market for small, obscure tank engines. The Beattie apparently sold well - well enough for Kernow to take their efforts forward into new models. And where did the 0298s run? In my lifetime (born in the year of Nationalisation) they ran on a small branch in the far South West. Bijou as the territory is, and the subject of not a few fine models, it nevertheless remains a bit "niche". Yet they sold many hundred models. It is my distinct impression that the GWR is a more popular prototype than the SR/LSWR. So even a half-good model of an unusual GWR tank engine is off to a good start. And, of course, small tank engines make a good choice for the small layouts that so many modellers are forced to consider due to space and budgetary constraints.

 

I suggest that even if Heljan come to market with a rival product to Kernow's, their name and the model in question might still enable a sales success for both teams. I certainly hope so.

[Arthur]

Let's move on from Heljan this, Dapol that, DJM the other.

 

Some contentious posts have already been, rightly, removed.

 

Let us agree that no RTR manufacturer has a perfect record, we've all had slightly different experiences with our models, and consequently have differing opinions.

 

Buy whichever model suits you best.

[JSpencer]

Hi,

Lets get the facts straight if you want to make a point.

You state 'this year alone'.

The late class 23 was produced several years ago and yes a mistake was made with the window positioning and nose shape.

When Heljan decided to produce the early nose style, to their great credit they undertook (at considerable expense) new tooling having listened to the critics.

This is not 'hit and miss' as this is an example of listening, admitting mistakes and evolution of their product is it not.

 

Personally I havnt bought either 23 for my fleet as i've a couple of Silver Fox kits waiting a start.

 

If you want to see an example of what Heljan can do look at the class 15 and 16 - especially the North British - this is one of the best diesel models ever.

 

Regards

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding there. My "This year alone" statement refers to the 33 only on that post.

 

Concerning 23, on the 23 thread I posted photo's of late and early nose versions so you can see the differences. While the side widows are incorrect on one, the nose shape is the same for both IMHO, so in fairness no issue for me there concerning the nose.

 

I will state also that my class 15 beats all my other locos for its supreme coat of gloss paint including Triang but it is a nice compact model and a decent runner. I like it honestly, even if I nicknamed it "the shiny one".

 

I am not saying Heljan are rubbish, I am saying that their models are either "WOW I love it and must have one" or "why on earth did they get that wrong?"

I personally only buy a Heljan when I see feedback now. For example, I did not preorder the new early nose class 23, but as it got such positive feedback I brought one. I am really happy with it. Nicely weathered it is too... (we need only look at the Garrett thread about hit'n'miss in that department).

 

Now that all the speculation is done in all senses, lets see what they eventually do for 1361 and 1366 classes. Will we get "wow" or will it be "why?" we will have to wait and see.

[Ozexpatriate]

Look at the facts:

Two models of the same locomotive = divided sales = its possible neither model produces the returns required on the outlay = no money for another development = market choice reduced.

 

We have seen this before - Airfix versus Mainline versus Lima versus Hornby. Result = the first three went bust.

No, duplication may not have been the only reason but it didnt help did it.

Perhaps I am ill-informed but I wasn't aware that it is a fact that model duplication was a major contributing reason that the Airfix, Mainline and Lima marques went out of business.

 

I would agree that it's not helpful. With any like versus like product on the market there is likely to be a winner and a loser.

 

I don't think any of us like duplication - certainly not those people who invested their energy, passion, time and money to independently research models only to find that someone else beat them to the post with an announcement. Model railway companies are competitors. In a market where the pool of 'interesting' subjects is shrinking such duplication (without collusion) is inevitable. The question for the model railway company becomes what next?

 

There are a large number of examples. For my own interests the Hornby/Bachmann Hall announcements leading to the Bachmann Hall and Hornby Grange come to mind - in that case there was no duplication at the time though Hornby do plan to build a Hall eventually. I don't know the facts, but I presume that Hornby had not progressed so much that they had a lot of sunk cost into the project. I recall chaos over the Blue Pullman announcements.

 

How did the LMS twins duplication resolve itself? I don't remember.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Ozexpatriate

[Arthur]

Well both were produced John, the Hattons/Dapol one being delivered a good while before the Rails/Bachmann, possibly a year or more earlier. Well before delivery the Rails/Bachmann version was soon split in that Rails retained exclusive rights to the earlier black versions whilst later versions, the green ones, would just enter the Bachmann range.

 

The Dapol model was well received, I've no idea how well it sold, Hattons still have (all?) versions listed as available. The Bachmann model, when released, was given the edge over the Dapol model in most reviews.

 

Bachmann seem to have gone to the extent of modelling actual differences in the models rather than just applying different paint jobs.

 

It's partly down to the need to make these changes that the exclusive Rails black versions have still to appear.

 

That's my understanding, I cannot comment if one has sold better than the other.

[Steffi_C]

The Dapol model was well received, I've no idea how well it sold, Hattons still have (all?) versions listed as available

 

Hattons only have one version of the Dapol model left in stock.  The black versions sold out quite quickly.

[Igor]

Some contentious posts have already been, rightly, removed... Let us agree that no RTR manufacturer has a perfect record,

 

Oh, that's a relief. I thought I was going mad!  I couldn't see anything wrong with the posts that have disappeared. A place-holder and note would've help my memory.