Honorary steam engines

[Market65]

Hi.There was the extra-ordinary Kitson-Still steam-diesel locomotive, built by Kitson of Leeds in 1927. It was a very ugly looking thing and had a 2-6-2 wheel arrangement. It was started on steam, and when speed had reached 6mph, then ran on diesel, with steam and diesel both available for extra power on steep gradients. It was most frequently used on the 3.20 pm goods from York to Hull via Market Weighton. I think it lasted until the middle of the 1930's. It was not very successful!  I don't think that there has been anything quite like it since then.

 

I've never seen a model of the remarkable creation.

 

All the best,

 

Market65.

[Castle]

Hi All,

 

are you alluding to the Steam Railmotor - which was an autocoach until a late lamented mate took an axe to the pieces of wood covering the driving end windows...

Who was the axe wielding restorer you once knew Barry?

 

It is true that No. 93 did become No. 212 before becoming No. 93 again but in this instance, Mr B. is correct. No. 22 survived by being squirrelled away by a manager at Swindon after he got the hump because he had just had it overhauled and he wasn't seeing a fresh and useful machine being broken up (well done him!). She went to a dark corner and was labelled in the paperwork as an autocoach. She was found by the GWS and bought as an autocoach because Paddington wouldn't believe that it was a railcar as they had all been scrapped. Well, that was what the paperwork said...

 

Wasn't she passed off as an autocoach for some time (which, I think, is how it entered preservation)?

I think you might have heard that from me on our little tour in July!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[newbryford]

Honorary... or dishonourable attempt?

89-9-38.jpg

Llangollen, 1989

 

If a model of that turned up on ebay, gosturde would be in heaven!

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Poor Old Bruce]

Actually, it's a steam locomotive. The 'engine' element is arrived at by how many 'sets' of engines are actually on the locomotive. For instance, a Merchant Navy has 3 engines (left, middle & right) on the locomotive.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Ian

 

Accepted Ian but some railways had 'Locomotives' and others had 'Engines'.

 

p.s. I always thought the 'engine' bit was the cylinders, valve gear and wheels (plus a few other bits of course) irrespective of how many cylinders it has, thus making your merchant Navy example a three-cylinder engine.

 

p.p.s. Shall I get my coat?

[tomparryharry]

Accepted Ian but some railways had 'Locomotives' and others had 'Engines'.

 

p.s. I always thought the 'engine' bit was the cylinders, valve gear and wheels (plus a few other bits of course) irrespective of how many cylinders it has, thus making your merchant Navy example a three-cylinder engine.

 

p.p.s. Shall I get my coat?

 

I've always known them to be 3 cylinder locomotives. You are (to me) absolutely correct in assuming the engine(s) to be the cylinders, and associated mechanical parts.

 

As Phil Collins would say:- "No Jacket Required"

 

Ian

[Barry O]

Hi All,

 

 

Who was the axe wielding restorer you once knew Barry?

 

I

Castle

Castle, the late lamented D N E Smith ... and yes he did use a fire axe - I was there when he did it..... I don't think Hooligit was around the day he did it but we did discuss it at the Boot  the following Thursday night.

 

Baz

 

once(for a short time) helping in the C&W Dept

[Torn-on-the-platform]

From a preservation perspective (and in my opinion), anything that was painted BR green or earlier is welcome to play a supporting role for the steam engines! They are also welcome to have the odd weekend where they are the stars of the show!

 

Shunters with side rods are the most acceptable, especially 03s and 04s

[Colin]

Didn't the LMS convert a 0-6-0 tank loco into an experimental diesel shunter in the '30s? Surely that would qualify!

[Chimer]

None, what an odd question. I might run some diesels with steam if they were around at the same time but steam is steam and diesel is diesel.

 

I thought it was a brilliant question and know exactly what the OP means.  I intended to be steam only, so the Cravens DMU that I now own must qualify ......

[Pacific231G]

Actually, it's a steam locomotive. The 'engine' element is arrived at by how many 'sets' of engines are actually on the locomotive. For instance, a Merchant Navy has 3 engines (left, middle & right) on the locomotive.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Ian

Originally they were known as locomotive engines i.e. self propelled engines to distinguish them from the stationary variety, so whether you call them locomotives or engines you're abbreviating that original name.  I have a copy of the 1905 GWR regulations, the 1935 Railway Clearing rule book (mine is LNER but they're  the same for other grouped railways) and the 1950 BR rulebook. There are hundreds of references to engines but I could find only one to locomotives and that is in rule  16 of the 1935 and 1950  rule books.   "Except where otherwise provided, the term Engine includes Electric or other locomotives."

So steam engines were universally  known as such and that's why we have Light Engines, Engine Drivers, Assisting Engines, and so on. I wonder who started applying the rather grander sounding name  of locomotive? I think there were locomotive engineers and superintendents before the arrival of electric and diesel traction required a more generalised name.

 

Going back to the OP I saw this a few months ago in SW France (not for the first time)

But if I'd seen it in 1950 it would have looked as it did fifty years earlier

 

These photos were taken at the small terminus of Sabres about 100 metres and over 100 years apart but the frames of the locomotive might well be the same.

This is a clearer works photo of the preceding loco in the class

 

When SNCF got a train up to then unheard of speed of 330kph (about 205 MPH) in 1955 one of the half dozen or so of these 0-6-0 tank engines that hadn't been either scrapped or converted was simmering on a goods train on the opposite side of the platform when it finally stopped. I don't think that was entirely coincidental.

[sir douglas]

what about compressed air locos, they run in exactly the same way but theres no steam

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/airloco/airloco.htm

[Pacific231G]

Does this count as steam or electric?

 

http://archive.today/gFZ8

 

Tony

Well I'd argue that a locomotive  is a steam engine if the power comes directly from steam irrespective of how that is generated. A steam engine may use coal, oil, wood, sugar cane waste, electricity or  an insulated flask replenished from a stationary boiler and it's still a steam engine. In museums, stationary steam engines are frequently run on compressed air which is generally safer to handle than live steam. These are still steam engines but they're being operated as air engines. 

If I remember my heat engines courses correctly, I'm pretty sure that using electicity to generate steam to power something is incredibly inefficient because you get the inherent thermodynamic losses of converting heat to power twice. For the Swiss, with masses of hydroelectric  power, the first set of losses had been taken care of by nature using heat from the sun to evaporate water and raise it into the atmosphere but a kilowatt hour of electricity will still give you far less work if you use it to generate steam than if you use it to drive an electric motor. I wonder if that's why the Swiss shunting locos kept their coal firing capability. When coal was availalble they'd be more efficient using that than drawing power from the catenary.