7mm Gladiator Royal Scot build

[Tim2014]

Hi Tim the first shot were from Pete Waterman and last shot was on flickr. Simon Thompson did 3D casting of the brake hangers and shoe's for me, no getting shorts for me.

 

Len

yes, I really need to short out the chassis and tender and see how the chassis runs...sorting that out if any could be a real problem! When you say 3D casting, is that 3D printing? Thanks for the info on the pics too.

[Tim2014]

Hi Tim,

 

I have spent today on the SVR chasing the Royal Scot and Britannia.We also saw 2 rebuilt West Countries, 28XX, Flying Pig amongst others - a cracking day.

 

By extreme good fortune, the Royal Scot and Brit were parked under the footbridge at Bridgnorth, so I took the opportunity to do a full photographic survey from the top down, and I have a few hundred photos. I'm not going to dump them here, but I will give you a flavour which will show you the sort of detail I was after for my own purposes. I am happy to post the photos as you come to need details.

 

This is the only one I took all day with full loco in shot!

 

P1010717a.jpg

 

It looked in fantastic condition.

 

This one answers your boiler height issue:

 

P1010677a.jpg

 

It was taken as near as I could get it looking flat across the footplate. There's no daylight visible. I reckon if you put some brass shim across the top of the footplate and rest the bottom of the boiler on that, you won't be far out.

 

Edit - found a second photo from a bit further away showing the same thing:

 

P1010627a.jpg

 

The following 3 shots are just a sample:

 

P1010639a.jpg

 

P1010630a.jpg

 

P1010660a.jpg

 

I'll have a look as to how I approached the firebox later. Heyside went out to an exhibition a couple of weeks ago, and I'm in a bit of a mess at the moment!

 

Cheers

 

Richard

Champion work Richard! She looks splendid - quite a few add-ons now, I guess that's modern Health and Safety.  Weather looks OK too. Yep, definitely no daylight there so I will build accordingly. Can I assume you will be tackling some of that lubricator pipework on yours? I'd love to see that (fancy making two sets? )

The pic of the boiler support is helpful too, I'd been wondering how that looked in real life.

 

Thanks so much for helping me out, and I hope you get sorted out soon (and that the exhibition went well, I'd love to see Heyside one day

Edited September 19, 2015 by Tim2014

[Blandford1969]

Hi Tim,

 

Here are my shots. I had not seen the others when I took mine. She goes like a dream and has a brake to die for.... wonderful.  Sadly there is a screen in the smokebox so it is not possible to see the tubeplate.

 

Kind regards

 

Duncan

[Tim2014]

Hi Tim,

 

Here are my shots. I had not seen the others when I took mine. She goes like a dream and has a brake to die for.... wonderful.  Sadly there is a screen in the smokebox so it is not possible to see the tubeplate.

DSC_0203.JPGDSC_0179.JPGDSC_0180.JPGDSC_0181.JPGDSC_0182.JPGDSC_0181.JPGDSC_0182.JPGDSC_0184.JPGDSC_0190.JPGDSC_0192.JPGDSC_0193.JPGDSC_0199.JPGDSC_0200.JPGDSC_0203.JPGDSC_0206.JPGDSC_0207.JPGDSC_0208.JPGscot1 tubeplate.JPGscot10.JPGscot9.JPGscot8.JPGscot7.JPGscot6.JPGscot5.JPGscot5.JPGscot4.JPGscot3.JPGscot2.JPGscot3.JPGscot4.JPGscot5.JPG

 

Kind regards

 

Duncan

Thanks so much for doing that for me Duncan! She looks spectacular and I don't know how you managed it, but the smell of burning coal and steam made it all the way over here and my mouth hurts from grinning so much

I love that loco - reminds me of my old 00 Airfix one (or should that be the other way around?). Early BR crest too which surprised me (although I haven't spent that much time looking at old photos of 46100). 46159 kept its to the end.  Lots of great detail for me to digest, but in the short term, there is definitely daylight under the boiler in a couple of those so I'm going to stick with Dikitriki's advice and go for the 0.8 to 0.9 mm scrap of etch gap under there.  The boiler bands are sufficiently prominent that I think I shall go with brass etched ones too (jumping the gun a little). I know I need to be careful reproducing cab detail, but still, there's a wealth of info there and I really have no other 'from era' pics to go from.   I'm not sooo keen on the shots showing the inside motion because I'm not recreating any of that! Looks lovely and clean EVERYWHERE, what a superb job turning the loco out.  I bet you had a great time - I wish I could have got there too, but this really is the next best thing.

 

Once again, thanks so much for taking these and sharing them.

[Dave Holt]

0.95 mm is the scale figure.

Beware of modern mainline modifications/additions in the cab. In particular, the pedestal for the air braking, which were not there in BR service.

Dave.

[Blandford1969]

Indeed it was a good trip, I offered them two West Country's and a 28xx in exchange for it, but they would not take it.

 

In terms of the differences to BR days these are as follows:

-Air brake pedestal to the left of the reverser (I was surprised expecting a standard Stanier one which I had assumed would have been fitted on rebuilding.

-Above that you have got the air gauges (which partly obstruct your view out of the front window (although I normally drive with my head out, so its not a problem)

-To the right of the reverser is the button for the AWS again a new fitting

-On the Fireman's side there is an extra box in the corner (useful for sitting on when running tender first) which you cannot really see

-What you can see on the fireman's side is some form of a lubricator which is tied in with the air brake system

-There is a bell in the roof on the drivers side.

 

In terms of the experience as I have posted elsewhere along the lines of an old cigar advert. Happiness is ............. a Royal Scot. She goes like an electric train with fantastic acceleration and the ejector is so good you can leave braking a bit longer in the knowledge you can drop the vacuum further and then it will blow off sufficiently quickly to do an effective but smooth stop, especially useful with a busy platform.

 

I will be honest in not wanting to get off her. In looking across at the level you posted I could not see clearly under the boiler and agree with where you are going. Your doing a great job with the model and it will be nice to see if finished.

 

If you want any more shots let me know as talking with the support crew they were suggesting it may stay for a few more weeks.

[dikitriki]

Tim,

 

A little treat for you....

 

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[Blandford1969]

Here's it as well on Saturday with some nice detail video and yes I was seeing how slow she would move onto the train,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BpfeeeirEY&spfreload=10

[Jintyman]

Tim,

 

A little treat for you....

 

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

Beautiful, and made all the more so with all that lovely Stanier stock behind at the end.

 

Lovely work on the kit too.

 

Jinty

Edited September 21, 2015 by Jintyman

[dikitriki]

Champion work Richard! She looks splendid - quite a few add-ons now, I guess that's modern Health and Safety.  Weather looks OK too. Yep, definitely no daylight there so I will build accordingly. Can I assume you will be tackling some of that lubricator pipework on yours? I'd love to see that (fancy making two sets? )

The pic of the boiler support is helpful too, I'd been wondering how that looked in real life.

 

Thanks so much for helping me out, and I hope you get sorted out soon (and that the exhibition went well, I'd love to see Heyside one day

 

Hello Tim,

 

I dug my Scot out of the cabinet and put some strip across the footplate. There's not a lot of places where it is clear to do so, but the maximum clearance I have is 0.5mm between top of footplate and bottom of boiler. You asked about the firebox; I trimmed it to fit over the splashers - a long and careful procedure - rather than fit it behind them, and then filed the splashers back to match the footplate rear as I felt it looked better.

 

I won't be tackling some of the lubricator pipework. The reason I wanted such clear photos was so that I could reproduce it all

 

When we go to an exhibition, because it's such hard work over 5 days, we have a month off. We shut the door on the layout (literally - it is still broken down) and only reassemble it when withdrawal symptoms kick in a month later. If you are ever in the UK, and near to the SVR, PM me, and you can come to play. We were fortunate that Cliff Williams wanted to take a professional video of Heyside at Telford, so we have a permanent record of our exploits. It's 1/2 an hour long - I had no idea he had taken so much footage - but gives a really good idea of what we are trying to create.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZERKWZjs6U#t=1028

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Dave Holt]

Hello Tim,

 

I dug my Scot out of the cabinet and put some strip across the footplate. There's not a lot of places where it is clear to do so, but the maximum clearance I have is 0.5mm between top of footplate and bottom of boiler.

 

 

Richard,

Where did you get the information that the gap should be 0.5 mm? The official works drawings show dimensions giving a gap of 0.95 mm in 7 mm scale.

Dave.

[dikitriki]

 

Hello Tim,

 

I dug my Scot out of the cabinet and put some strip across the footplate. There's not a lot of places where it is clear to do so, but the maximum clearance I have is 0.5mm between top of footplate and bottom of boiler.

 

 

Richard,

Where did you get the information that the gap should be 0.5 mm? The official works drawings show dimensions giving a gap of 0.95 mm in 7 mm scale.

Dave.

 

Hi Dave,

 

No, you misunderstand. I am merely reporting that from the same kit, that's what I ended up with. I am actually very pleased that's it's as close to 'official' as it is (my build predates the profile book) - the chances of forming a boiler to the exact shape necessary and being truly accurate, getting all dimensions to scale, approach nil IMO. I am also pretty convinced that actual builds would not match the works drawings exactly, so my 0.45mm difference I can live with very happily.

 

Regards,

 

Richard

 

[Dave Holt]

Hi Richard.

Yes, I'm sure you're right.

Anyway, for the overall appearance of the model, the height to the top of boiler and firebox and correct profile along the top and having the bottom parallel with the running plate are probably more critical?

Dave.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Dave Holt

[dikitriki]

Anyway, for the overall appearance of the model, the height to the top of boiler and firebox and correct profile along the top and having the bottom parallel with the running plate are probably more critical?

 

 

Agree totally, the top profile is crucial. With the Royal Scot, there is so much going on on the footplate that if the bottom of the boiler is out a little, it would be next to impossible to tell. Not that I am advocating sloppy work, it's just that model building tolerances get in the way of supreme accuracy, and this is so with the very best of kits (MOK 76XXX cast firebox is a fraction short - do you rebuild it if your skills are up to it, or accept it on the basis that no-one will ever know?)

 

Richard

[Tim2014]

 

Hello Tim,

 

I dug my Scot out of the cabinet and put some strip across the footplate. There's not a lot of places where it is clear to do so, but the maximum clearance I have is 0.5mm between top of footplate and bottom of boiler.

 

 

Richard,

Where did you get the information that the gap should be 0.5 mm? The official works drawings show dimensions giving a gap of 0.95 mm in 7 mm scale.

Dave.

 

I'll start with the 0.95 and work down if I think it looks wrong - not disputing the scale drawings, just accepting the compromises that have to be made scaling down. I have realised after looking at all the lovely footage kindly provided that the only reason I can see the gap so clearly is because I've still got so many extra pieces to add. The only place the gap itself will be really noticeable is just behind the smokebox support, although I suspect it will play a big part in the overall impression of the loco. Had I not got the glint of daylight from Duncan's backlit photo, I would have been tempted to doubt the scale drawings and dimensions.

BTW I worked out what thickness in 7mm the 1/4 footplate *should* be and I'm quite happy to accept that sort of compromise but my building skills are only up to within .25 of a mm at best too which is why I was being lazy talking about 0.9 of a mm earlier.

[Tim2014]

Thanks so much to Duncan and Dikitriki for those videos, and guidance on the cab layout.  The videos are a great way of getting an overview of all that footplate detail!  I thought the smoke deflectors looked a little different on the video, but perhaps its just that the angle from camera to loco changes so gives a better perspective.  They are as fitted to the loco back in BR days I presume?

I'm a bit short for time at the mo. Lots of work commitments and a windscreen refit on my car revealed some rust under the sealant which I've decided to fix properly rather than try and hide so I've got a bit of large scale painting to sort out around work which will limit any modelling progress over the next few days. I hope to watch the Heyside vid in full though one evening, it's a stunning layout and must be very big...getting O gauge straights to disappear into far distance is no mean feat!

[Blandford1969]

I forgot about the smoke deflector which on the driver's side is modified as the air pump parts are behind it so is different to before preservation

[Tim2014]

An update is long overdue.

 

It’s taken a lot of measuring and fiddling to get the cab/firebox/boiler/smokebox all sorted to my satisfaction and now it’s clear the kit maker had it all figured out and I could have got here a lot quicker - but it’s good to figure things out yourself slowly right?  The fore-aft firebox overhangs were the main issue, together with the lack of a really good reference datum on the model at the stage I was at. The final piece of the jigsaw was the whitemetal smokebox casting which needed a fair bit of trimming to get it to settle down into the etched recess in the footplate and then a bit of filing on its lower edge to lower the smokebox down onto the footplate (well, 0.95 mm proud of it!).

 

I didn’t want to solder the cab in place until I was sure that I could get the whole top assembly to sit right and that came down to getting the firebox to sit at the right height above the footplate. Since the firebox top slopes, that meant checking the front and rear dimensions off the scale drawing Ozzy kindly sent me (and as supplied by Dave) and then fettling the cab and smokebox support until it sat right.

 

I spent some time trying to measure the two  heights before realizing I needed a gauge, and that I also would have to take off the four rearmost splasher tops previousy fitted which now prevent the firebox dropping down into the footplate cutout.  The mating face between the firebox and footplate/splashers is extremely complex and there’s simply no way I was going to start filing the splashers without being certain the firebox was held in at the right height.

 

 The left over etches made creating two gauges easy.  I cut them in half to add a spacer so they fit over the widest part of the firebox.  Then it was just a case of filing down the ‘legs’ until they match calipers set at the correct height:

 

With those done it was finally clear how much needed to come off the cab bottom (nothing) and the smokebox support (lots!).  This assessment of height also allowed an assessment of how to handle the firebox wrapper overhangs.  There’s nothing in the instructions to say the wrapper should be filed flush to the formers and since I’m building this with the firebox detachable from the cab, my options for filling gaps are limited.  So I needed a nice tight fit between the firebox and the cab.  The scale drawings indicate that the formers demark the length of the firebox accurately, so as long as the front of the cab is square to the footplate, filing down the wrapper to the firebox formers is the way to go. I don’t much like theory on its own so took my time gradually filing the wrapper edge in towards the formers.  It’s just a little proud at the moment, and I think the amount it’s proud is about the excess forward overhang of the smokebox front over the front footplate, but since it’s much easier to take it off than to put it back, I’ve left it for now:

 

Once the cab was bolted to the firebox and the firebox is at the right height, I could easily sort out the front cab radiuses, which of course need to match the actual bends you got into the footplate on each side.  Again I took my time and got to the point that it was a really close fit before finally reaching for the soldering iron and attaching the cab permanently to the footplate:

 

Of course with the benefit of hindsight I can see that the bottom of the firebox formers now line up perfectly with the lower edge of the footplate, almost certainly as the kit designer intended:

 

From there, it was ‘just’ a case of fettling the splasher tops to match the firebox.  I chose to have the firebox wrapper go down behind the splashers as that should preclude any daylight between the gap given I’m not soldering the firebox to the splashers or footplate.  As it is now, there’s about 1 mm of firebox wrapper below the splashers and the middle splashers have a ‘notch’ in them to accommodate the start of the firebox:

 

I worked on one splasher at a time to get the fit correct before moving onto the next one.  For the first side, I soldered a  splasher on and then fettled it to the firebox using the top bolt hole to join the cab and firebox ‘rotating’ the firebox up against the splasher to see where you need to remove material from the splasher.  I then did the same with the next splasher on that side. On the other side you can’t use that method without removing the splashers you’ve just fettled so I chose to dry fit the splasher in position with an outboard overhang, filing and checking to get the curve spot on.  I could then solder it in place knowing I just needed to remove about the width of the overhang from the inside face.  That worked out well and was probably quicker since you don’t have to keep bolting and unbolting the firebox to the cab.

 

Anyway, it’s turned out OK (I think) and as I say, had I trusted the kit designer and my instincts (or had a bit more experience), this could have been done a lot quicker, but still, it’s very satisfying figuring these things out methodically and slowly-but-surely getting the job done.  The only bits of the instructions I disagree with is the sequencing of soldering the cab to the footplate and the smokebox support to the footplate.  In my opinion, you'd be setting yourself up for problems unless you hold off attaching those two items until you have made up the whole of the top assembly and can see how it all fits together and sits on the footplate, but what do I know

 

Next up I plan to sort out a smokebox attachment, fit the proper CSB spring (so the body will sink 0.5mm onto the wheels) and get the loco rolling since it hasn’t yet run on track power.  Still so much to do!

[Tim2014]

I've finally shorted out one side of tender wheels and one side of the drivers:

 

I was planning to use phosphor bronze strip but although I got lucky on my first attempt on a tender wheel, the second was a pain so I switched to some thin brass wire instead.  A dremel circular saw was used to cut a small slot in the boss and tyre, linked along a spoke.  It's much easier to solder the wire in if you leave it as an 'L' until both ends are soldered, you then cut at the right angle and file it down flush to the wheel back.  Prior to soldering the second joint, I used the soldering iron heat to bed the wire into the spoke and the end result is pretty neat, with at most a 0.1 ohm resistance drop.  I thought I may have to fill the slot with epoxy, but I can't see the point, any gap is next to non-existent.

 

The boiler assembly is just resting on the chassis and the wiring doesn't help it sit well.  The tender is dragged using the power wire clipped to a buffing post.  Apologies for the missing radius rod on this side:

 

But it works, first run on track power, 3V from two D-cell batteries wired to the track! (video password is: 46159)

Now to try a curve on the layout...

Edited November 10, 2015 by Tim2014

[Tim2014]

Hi all, Please pardon the long absence, especially as there is not much modelling to report in the interval. A trip to the UK and a lot of work on the house has put paid to that.  I can report I now have a David Andrews Jubillee kit, which from a very cursory glance looks superb, and will share basic costruction steps with this kit. The casting quality - and certainly finish - looks better than what what I've had for some parts of this Gladiator kit

 

I also got the LMS loco profiles for the Coronation Pacifics so I think my next 10 years of railway modelling is planned out!

 

Back to this kit, it now has an identity (in the parts box at any rate).  I just hope my modelling can come close to complementing these:

 

Before my break I was fitting the steam pipe covers and flanges which is slightly complicated by the fact that I am making the firebox, boiler and smokebox assembly removeable.  I'm still not quite sure how I'm going to get everything to fit nicely with no gaps.  The original seems to have a slight inclination of the covers (the tops leaning forward), but it's hard to tell of the drawings and in any case it's slight.  I think as long as they aren't angled with the tops to the rear it should look OK.

 

Only other progress that hasn't been reported is that the loco managed my curves admirably (the radiuses at least) and I have got the lifting rings and front valve chest cover on. I had an embryonic post on that ready to go, but managed to drop my laptop the day before leaving the UK which resulted in a complete HDD failure.  I've lost all my pics and notes on the build thread so will have to try and rebuild them from here. Always make sure you have a back up folks, and in it's absence, trying to put a value on personal photos has been interesting!

[Tim2014]

After lots of thinking and very little modelling, I have a cunning plan…

I plan to depart from the instructions and have the smokebox, boiler and firebox assembly detachable from the cab/footplate to aid in painting.  Andrew's post (#164) way back on page 7 remains my inspiration, but rather than jointing the steam pipe covers at the smokebox, I want to have the joint at the footplate, the theory being that will allow me to fill the complex compound curves between the smokebox and the steam pipes with solder rather than fettle them and risk some gaps.

These are one set of relevant parts (prior to surgery):

 

The boiler assembly will be held down by two 6BA bits of threaded rod soldered into the lower part of the steam pipes (actually into carrier brass tubes soldered into the whitemetal castings).  The base flanges will be soldered onto the steam pipes (with the pilot holes enlarged) and the whole boiler assembly will then secure to the footplate using two free nuts on the underside of the footplate.  I think the top face of the cylinder covers will need to be drilled to accept the nuts. The smokebox will be soldered to it’s support casting (so any minor gaps can be filled with solder), but the casting will just rest on the footplate.  The brass tube is to allow the threaded rod to be adjusted to go through the footplate at a perpendicular angle – melt, adjust, repeat.

And I hope it will go together like this:

 

A bit complicated, but I’m sure I will appreciate it when I paint and line it all.  I also plan to remove the cast rivets as I can’t see any evidence for them in photos, the covers look like they are smooth sheet metal with pressed flanges to me.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Tim2014

[KalKat]

Ummm .....that will mean the holes in the running plate will have to be oval. ?

 

 

 

 

Emma

[ikks]

Looking magnificent Tim, these were always one of my favorites.

 

Rgds.....Mike

[Tim2014]

Ummm .....that will mean the holes in the running plate will have to be oval. ?

 

Emma

Hi Emma,

I think my dodgy drawing has confused the issue, but they don't have to be oval.  They are going to be in a different place though, I don't know whether I've made a mistake, but on my kit, they've come inboard significantly. It is hard to tell, but studying photos makes me think it's not me and that they are drilled a bit wide both for the castings supplied, and compared to prototype pics.

 

So hopefully to avoid any more confusion, here's the bits for one steam pipe, not shown here, I've cut out the base web of the casting and filed off the rivets:

 

I needed to remove a lot off the base etch (the one on the left is as supplied in the kit):

and you can see how 'off' the pre-drilled footplate holes will be as a result (I should hastily point out the elongated hole is my er 'handiwork' as I struggled to figure out exactly where the casting would sit on the footplate, there was one nice hole originally!):

 

As I thought about assembly, I decided to put a 'stop' in the brass sleeve so that the piece of threaded rod doesn't 'disappear'.  Two slots with the fretsaw and a gentle crimp with side cutters:

I was being tight and trying to get both sides out of one BA bolt, but it is important not to have too much length as you need to orient the threaded rod so you don't need oval holes in the footplate   A bit of that angle change comes from the brass sleeve inside the casting, the rest from 'waggle' between the rod and the sleeve, with solder used like hot glue.  Precision engineering this aint!

 

I debated on the order of things for some time and settled on this order because I think it will give the best cosmetic results given there's whitemetal involved and only fingers for clamps around the smokebox join.  First hot step was to solder the casting to the smokebox flange:

Then I checked the symmetry of the base flange around lower edge of the casting, and fettled away at the base of the casting to get it just right. I'm using the smokebox saddle (unsoldered) as the guide for desired height here, but plan to have the saddle soldered to the smokebox and not attached to the footplate at all, it will hopefully all rest nicely or be a fraction of a mm above it.

 

Eventually, after a lot of filing, I was happy to solder the brass sleeve into the casting channel and the base flange on over the top.  Then open out the hole in the base plate and voila:

 

Last step is to generously tin the end of the rod and shoot it home into the sleeve (very glad I made the stop in it now). A couple of 'waggles' with the iron to get it pretty much square.  But before I did that, I used the footplate 'botched' holes to sight where I needed a new inboard hole for the threaded rod to go though:

 

And the end result has worked as well as I could have hoped for, yes there's a small gap, but it will fill with paint I'm sure, and if not with a bit of 'cack', I'm sure the area got very clagged up in use (not that I will be going for realistically heavy weathering I'm afraid):

 

Just got to do the other one now!

Edited February 24, 2016 by Tim2014

[KalKat]

Ah-ha...... alles klar

 

 

Emma