7mm Gladiator Royal Scot build

[Tim2014]

Hello Tim, and welcome back. Personally I would have painted the Number plate on the smokebox before fitting, Took me a good few attempts to get the black background and white numbers.

Thanks for the welcome John, but don't worry, it was just balanced to check clearances, which are tight in that area. I think I got away with the top strap position due to the extensive planning and careful application of scale dimensions. Or not! In fact, neither the smoke box ring or door castings are round and the compound curves on the door make it very hard to get good reference lines, even if I could be bothered to scale them off the front view in Profile No. 1 which was drawm post preservation and has a door bracket plate upside down justifying eyeballing it (for me anyway). There is a lot of front detail so i hope I can get away with the slightly oversize door hardware.

 

Here's an unflattering assembled pic (some finishimg still to do), but it opens and closes fine. I will add a small magnet and ferrous pin to keep it closed.

[JeffP]

A magnet? Are you trying to tell us the smokebox dart doesn't work??????

 

Only kidding, it looks the business. What is the hinge pin made from?

[Tim2014]

A magnet? Are you trying to tell us the smokebox dart doesn't work??????

 

Only kidding, it looks the business. What is the hinge pin made from?

Ha, ha! It crossed my mind to make the dart work, but remember: "Done is better than perfect"!

The hinge pin is  a dressmakers pin, with just the bottom cut off at an approximation to length.  It was serving a useful, if humble purpose holding the 6 bits of brass tube pinned into a piece of depron to stop them getting lost, but I have a feeling it will be staying in it's elevated role now, the head is very close to the right size, it probably just need a bit of turning in a dremel on the underside to make it sit a little flatter.

[Tim2014]

I've spent a couple of days getting the loco ready to properly run outdoors.  That involved replacing the metal tender drawbar with a plastic one and providing secure (but removable) lugs to bring power from the tender and loco chassis to the motor.

The good news is that it I think it will run very well once the inevitable niggles have been sorted out: it negotiated my dodgy track rather well.  The only major problem was the front bogie, which is very lightly sprung and not fully soldered yet. 

 

I think I need more 'side control' (I hope that's the right term?) beyond the simple circular hole in the half etched section to  allow the bogie to displace to the right and left of the pivot point centerline, not much, but a little more than it can at the moment.

The instructions are a little hazy on how the attachment is done, its obviously supposed to be self explanatory and there is a brass pivot and spring that seem to do the job.  I detected a short a couple of times between the rear wheel of the bogie and the brake gear, but I had expected that, there is more fore-aft play in the bogie than there will be when it is finally assembled.  I will definitely need to build in some compensation, because it has lots of that at the moment by virtue of the fact that the equaliser beams are not soldered to the spacer/side frame assembly so it's not rigid at all!

 

The coupling rods were also binding very slightly and I think that was due to a lack of a spacing washer on the front coupled wheels.  I kept things simple and ran with valve gear removed, so will fix up the identified issues before adding that and posting a small movie.

 

It was very satisfying seeing it zip along - the CSB makes it super quiet and really smooth - totally unlike the swaying and jolting of any of my Lima rolling stock.

[Tim2014]

I finally got some footage, it's not the best though, I need a tripod!  My young son was driving and it's a standard RC stick controller with no attempt to finesse slow speed yet! (They are private so you with need to enter 46159 to watch them), there is no audio on the first one.

 

And in case shaky, sometimes blurry video isn't your thing: here's two pics that show the overall loco. They also clearly show how the rust has set in on the tender buffers (and wheels and axles)!  The near side of the tender doesn't pick up so I can get away with leaving the wheels rusty.

 

The motion is finally all complete, even though it's not quite in final form.  Dome and top feed are permanently on, the chimney is a work in progress.  I have put the reversing rod on too, but you can't see that in these.  I may need to make it removable as it covers the splasher which will make lining near impossible. Apparently some lining was dropped in the later period, but it's really hard to tell from pics whether I can skip it or not.  That where going for near ex-works is a bad idea

 

I still can't quite make it round the curves without the front bogie derailing.  It's close though, and still unweighted and without any side control springing.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Tim2014

[Tim2014]

A progress update as I have some other stuff to do so modeling will have to take a break for a week or so.

Those following closely will be aware the loco and tender are at different polarities.  This creates a problem: as well as a mechanical coupling from the loco to the tender to haul it, I also have to get the electrical power from one rail from the tender to the loco.  From memory, the OO Airfix Royal Scot picked up from the loco and had a motorized tender and so the loco and tender were permanently coupled, with a two-wire cable and a towbar.  The instructions for this kit were not all that clear how the tender and loco are supposed to be coupled.  I hadn’t given it any real thought and so have been a little surprised at how much handling is required to couple and uncouple the loco from it’s tender.  The OO version was also a bit of a handful, but with the O guage version at 1.something kg and over 12 inches in length, it’s in another league.  I will definitely need a loco cradle to even do something as simple as clean the wheels. 

 

Presumably this is just newbie naivety and old hat to you all?

 

I am quite pleased with my electrical coupling though, it is only in prototype format, but I plan to make it a little smaller so it doubles as a semi-scale water pipe connection from the tender.  I soldered two pieces of wire to small rare-earth magnets (which conduct very well).  They hate heat though and demagnetize completely if you are not careful (my iron will only go to 150C and that kills them completely unless you are extremely quick and use a heatsink to limit the temp rise, I was using 100C solder).  I plan to improve the design using ‘wire glue’ conductive adhesive from my local electronics store.  I will reinforce the join with epoxy, then use heatshrink over the join and magnet, leaving just the two mating faces.  The plan is to use wire and heatshrink that bulks it out to a passable reproduction of a water pipe connection.  I may even replicate all the tender-loco connections with this method since that will lower the resistance and its quite simple to couple and uncouple them.  You do need to watch the magnet polarity though!  I must admit it was inspired by comments on this site about ‘working’ vacuum brake couplings and has almost certainly been independently invented before.

 

I have decided on an order that will allow the cab floor, backplate and furniture to be completely removable (excepting the drivers seat) using a screw from the firebox into the backplate that holds it securely and pins down the floor.  Judicious use of small magnets will hold down the reverser and firemans toobox to the floor (there’s lots of room under the cab floor and the chassis.  That will allow each assembly to be painted up nicely out of the loco.

 

Drain blister is on the smokebox, the funnel has been modified to take brass tube to approx. the right blastpipe depth inside the smokebox, but it all still needs soldering and finishing:

 

Top feed could do with the top plate being reduced in prominence a little and the pipework was a pig to fettle nicely. I just about got it done and realized the left side angles forwards as it approaches the footplate (grr, that will have to come off). The copper pipe was just a quick first attempt.  I’m going to knock up a scale jig to get it reasonable close.  The kit doesn’t come with anything to represent the above/below footplate mating flange of the topfeed pipes and that join is pretty obvious on the model.  Fortunately Dikitrikis excellent SVR photos will come in very handy for passing off a version of that.

 

Safety valves were easy, as was the reversing bracket, but I think I will take it off and add some threaded rod to secure it to the footplate.  That way, I can remove it to do the painting and lining on the splashers.

Sandboxes are just rough fitted and should be pretty straightforward.  The splasher beading just interferes with their beading, but I don’t think it will be noticeable.

 

Getting excited now as although there is still plenty of detail to add, I can very clearly see the end point now.

[Tim2014]

I've finally had time to do a bit more on the pipework. What a saga! The kit supplies some copper wire to be bent into a representation of the lower feed pipes from the topfeed castings through to pre-drilled holes in the footplate.  It ends up being a very complicated 3D shape, so careful examination of the scale drawing in Loco Profile No1 resulted in a scale template to at least get an idea of what size and shape it should be in 7mm scale.  Then you just have to tweak it to fit the actual model.  I also had to source some more copper wire, I don't know if I lost the wire that comes with the kit, but the piece in the kitbox that I now have is too large a diameter to match the whitemetal castings in a convincing way, so I had to find something a bit smaller.  Since I knew I'd need some for the cab backhead, I got a few offcuts from my local hardware store (h/t to folk here for that idea).  For around 3 dollars I now have a generous supply of copper wire for model loco building, having snapped up muti-core mains flex and coax antennae cable in various wire gauges.  The chap who cut the wire and wrote up the chit, did it in very good humour and didn't seem to find it all unusual that a customer would want one foot lengths of mains cable...

 

I had been planning to solder the wire to the boiler at the base of the whitemetal castings and then secure the free ends after they pass through the footplate.  I was a bit worried about their length 'floating' around during the painting and lining, but the realisation that doing that would cover a boiler band which needed to be lined, forced a Plan B: I have drilled the boiler just under the whitemetal casting and formed a hook in the wire that will just hold it in place at the boiler, while a piece of 12 BA threaded rod holds the other end to the footplate.  I don't like the idea of a soldered joint holding it down, but hopefully it will hold. Even if I had a 12BA tap, I'm not sure the copper would hold a thread long.

 

So the net result is I have a passable representation of the flange that I'm happy with, and I can dismantle the pipework from the boiler for painting and lining.  Was it worth the effort? I'm sure it will be, a few months after I've finished the other one and I've forgotten how fiddly they were.  And a big thanks to Dikitriki for the prototype pics, I couldn't have done it without them.

I have also modified the reversing rod bracket so it is bolted through the footplate and have done the same on the sandboxes, again, to make painting a bit easier.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Tim2014

[Tim2014]

Hi, Hope you are all well.

A little more progress - some sand fillers, mud hole covers have been added and I've soldered the chimney (still some tidying to do though). 

I need to start planning the painting.  I've been to the Painting and Weathering section but was surprised to find no stickies on painting brass (I read the recent relevant threads so am aware there are different viewpoints out there, if anyone can link to a recommended thread I may have missed, that would be great).  I have a reasonable airbrush and a bit of experience using it on plastic kits, but this will be my first time painting metal.  I will brush paint small details.  So can you gurus critique my plan, assumptions and comments beneath the list:

 

00. Clean religiously using VIM style kitchen cleaner on a toothbrush followed by a lacquer thinners bath to get rid of flux and grease (oxidation of brass isn't a problem as I understand things).

0. Chemically blacken chassis and footplate.

1. Etch primer on everything.

2. Let the primer dry rock solid (I'll probably bake at 70C for a few hours after it's air dried for a few days.

3. Spray top-coating of black and BR Green multiple light coats obviously.

4. Brush details (eg cab and backplate).

5. Spray gloss varnish on loco body.

6. Line with HMRS pressfix.

7. Spray satin topcoat.

 

I'll probably try the smokebox and front boiler sections as test pieces after experimenting on some scrap as they are easy to strip back to bare metal if it all goes horribly wrong.

 

Comments:

0 Is this a good idea, or unnecessary/liable to produce more problems? I would experiment first to get the technique on track and have a couple of gun-oriented blackeners to try.  I know blackening W/M and solder is a problem, but think paint sticks better to that than brass.  Is blackened metal still conductive?

1 I have some grey car etch primer for this - was thinking it may be too thick (at the paint particle level), but my limited research suggests not - providing it's thinned for airbrushing.  I will test it first on some scrap.

3 I can't get Halfords paint out here, but car places will mix paint to a paint code.  Do I go for a mix job to Land Rover bronze green, or source something else? I have some Humbrol acrylics to experiment with but people aren't terribly complimentary about them these days.  I get on well with Tamiya acrylics and can get those and Vallejo (which I've never used) which got good reviews. Recommendations for humbrol enamel are welcome.

4.  I have been thinking about the SevernMill numberplates and nameplates.  Is there any reason I can't solder these on, prime, paint white (for numbers/tender plates), fill with black and wipe off the painted white to reveal the lettering and numbers, or gently sand back the black and primer to leave the brass for nameplates?  I reckon solder will hold them better than superglue or epoxy, the nameplates seem to have the backers etched in.  Do I need to wire-brush them to take the sharp edge off the top lettering.

5. I don't like spraying varnish, I've had some disasters when thinning it myself, but I'll pick my day and weather. Any recommendations for brand to use as per 3?

6. I'd love to do proper lining but lack either the equipment or time to figure out how to do it well - one day. I get on OK with pressfix, though I've yet to use it for lining, so may take that back!

7. See 5!

Edited July 7, 2017 by Tim2014

[Sandy Harper]

HMRS lining, if its new stock, is not recommended as it is almost impossible to remove the glue residue.

 

Why not use gloss paint and remove step 5? Final varnish will give the result you require.

 

Ronseal Polyurethane clear satin varnish works well, is easily thinned with white spirit for use through a spray gun.

 

With careful application, I have had good results with Fox water slide lining transfers.

 

Regards

Sandy

 

Before varnishing

 

After varnish applied

 

[Tim2014]

HMRS lining, if its new stock, is not recommended as it is almost impossible to remove the glue residue.

 

Why not use gloss paint and remove step 5? Final varnish will give the result you require.

 

Ronseal Polyurethane clear satin varnish works well, is easily thinned with white spirit for use through a spray gun.

 

With careful application, I have had good results with Fox water slide lining transfers.

 

Regards

Sandy

Thanks Sandy, that's a magnificent model, I'll be very happy indeed if I can begin to approach that one day, and even though the lighting is probably a bit different, those pics really highlight the difference a satin varnish makes to the shade.  Good point about using gloss paint, that would make more sense, but I have no idea what paint colour to use, let alone what finish I may be able to source it in. What did you use on Rhyl? The Humbrol acrylic I have (RC 204405) is matt, but although I'm fine with acrylic paints for cars, the latex based hardware ones don't strike me as being suitable for models.  I've 40 odd years of experience with Humbrol enamels but next to none with Humbrol acrylics so feel really feel uneasy about putting all my eggs in that basket without a recommendation from someone who has found them to work well.  I am also wary of mixing brands and paint types, so I'll gladly take recommendations from you folks who have done this before.  I can't get Ronseal out here either so I'm thinking I should match my varnish brand to the top-coat brand.

 

Point noted about Pressfix - I don't recall trouble with the batch I used before, they would have been circa 2007, the lining set I bought new from HMRS in probably 2014.  Is that 'new'?

 

Finally, what did you do to the motion and buffers to get that lovely oiled look? I like that a lot.

[Sandy Harper]

Thanks Sandy, that's a magnificent model, I'll be very happy indeed if I can begin to approach that one day, and even though the lighting is probably a bit different, those pics really highlight the difference a satin varnish makes to the shade.  Good point about using gloss paint, that would make more sense, but I have no idea what paint colour to use, let alone what finish I may be able to source it in. What did you use on Rhyl? The Humbrol acrylic I have (RC 204405) is matt, but although I'm fine with acrylic paints for cars, the latex based hardware ones don't strike me as being suitable for models.  I've 40 odd years of experience with Humbrol enamels but next to none with Humbrol acrylics so feel really feel uneasy about putting all my eggs in that basket without a recommendation from someone who has found them to work well.  I am also wary of mixing brands and paint types, so I'll gladly take recommendations from you folks who have done this before.  I can't get Ronseal out here either so I'm thinking I should match my varnish brand to the top-coat brand.

 

Point noted about Pressfix - I don't recall trouble with the batch I used before, they would have been circa 2007, the lining set I bought new from HMRS in probably 2014.  Is that 'new'?

 

Finally, what did you do to the motion and buffers to get that lovely oiled look? I like that a lot.

I would not use aclylic paint, but only because I have no experience with it.. This model was painted using a Halfords Brunswick Green spray can, by the owner. It came to me for refurbishment of the lining and varnishing. I would have used Precision BR green through a spray gun. Precision also do a satin varnish but I have not used it, The whole engine was sprayed with thin coats of what I call 'Black Varnish' IE I add a small amount of Humbrol no 85 to my varnish mix and spray everything. It tones down paint, transfers and bright metal to a lightly weathered look which I like. If you are careful you can keep the spray away from wheel treads. I would suspect that your 2014 lining sheet is the 'new' version Try it first and see if you can remove the glue before putting it on your engine.

 

Kind regards

Sandy

[Tim2014]

I would not use aclylic paint, but only because I have no experience with it.. This model was painted using a Halfords Brunswick Green spray can, by the owner. It came to me for refurbishment of the lining and varnishing. I would have used Precision BR green through a spray gun. Precision also do a satin varnish but I have not used it, The whole engine was sprayed with thin coats of what I call 'Black Varnish' IE I add a small amount of Humbrol no 85 to my varnish mix and spray everything. It tones down paint, transfers and bright metal to a lightly weathered look which I like. If you are careful you can keep the spray away from wheel treads. I would suspect that your 2014 lining sheet is the 'new' version Try it first and see if you can remove the glue before putting it on your engine.

 

Kind regards

Sandy

Thanks Sandy, that's a great idea with the dark varnish! I hope you don't mind me nicking it.  I have confirmed Phoenix Precision paints out here are not going to happen.  I think I'll try and source some car paint matched to Rover Brooklands Green (and deep bronze green for comparison) and see what it looks like on some brass. I can then do some test transfers as well.  Much appreciate the advice.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Tim2014

[Tim2014]

I have sourced some BS 381 224 deep bronze green from a friendly paint shop that from a quick dab on the tender doesn't look a million miles out.  I hope I may get some daylight at a weekend with decent weather to try some spraying of test pieces.  I may repaint my Lima class 33 from BR blue to BR green, if that doesn't pan out, at least I haven't completely wasted the paint (I know the diesels were a slightly different shade).  I can then also try out the pressfix transfers without completely wasting them (if they work OK).

 

Re the weekend daylight, some 300mm to 1ft work has been occupying me:

If anyone is nursing an old Subaru engine, I've learnt a lot about them now.  Not least, if you replace the rear main oil seal when you do a clutch, use a Subaru replacement, I 'cheaped out' on an aftermarket that leaked worse than the old one and had to pull the engine and clutch again. Defintiely not worth the 20 dollars 'saving'. Grrr.  Got it down to 1 day out and 1 day back on the second time.  I really hope that's the last time I get one out for some time, or this kit will never be finished...

 

Last night I started out confidently to tackle the other side of the Silvertown lubricator:

 

(I confess to having been slightly deflated by lurking over on Dikitriki's Duchess thread over on WT - which I found while searching for lubricator details of the Scot).  Check it out, it is outstanding craftsmanship - truly magnificent!  Again his photos from the Severn Valley have been so helpful - and made me realise that this Gladiator kit supplies two W/M lubricators of 6+6 port design.  As far as I can tell, the prototypes (and Guardsman) had one of those on the RH footplate, but a larger 8+8 port one on the LH side.  Still, I figured I could make a start on the RH one and had managed to attach one side's pipework quite securely without turning the W/M into a blob.  Plan B was to file the W/M pips off and drill holes right through and sleeve with pieces of fine brass tube (to represent the ports and aid threading thinner gauge wire through).

 

Still, the other side proved waaay harder for some reason and I found myself with a puddle of solder and W/M with odd spacing on the wires.  I'd broken my 0.3mm drill bit on the first side and was not fancying trying to drill 6 0.6mm holes right through the casting when I realised I might be able to raid my David Andrews Jubilee.  Sure enough, there are nice ?bronze castings (though still two 6+6 port ones).  So raiding one gives me something to get going with while I wait for the 8+8 to arrive from Laurie Griffin.

 

I've not had much luck sourcing the manifold in this pic (I hope Dikitriki doesn't mind me putting it up, it's his photo, so copyright to him for information only):

Any hints, I don't mind bodging one up from scratch, but at my pace, it's worth buying one!

 

Hopefully, onward and upwards!

[Horsetan]

....Re the weekend daylight, some 300mm to 1ft work has been occupying me:

SANY0089.JPG

If anyone is nursing an old Subaru engine, I've learnt a lot about them now.  Not least, if you replace the rear main oil seal when you do a clutch, use a Subaru replacement, I 'cheaped out' on an aftermarket that leaked worse than the old one and had to pull the engine and clutch again. Defintiely not worth the 20 dollars 'saving'. Grrr.  Got it down to 1 day out and 1 day back on the second time.  I really hope that's the last time I get one out for some time, or this kit will never be finished...

 

Funny, the Subaru SVX is one of those eccentric cars that I once considered. Glad I didn't scratch the itch.

[PAD]

Hi Tim,

Try Laurie Griffin. I got the one on my Black V from him. You could cobble two together if necessary.

Cheers,

Peter

 

[JeffP]

PAD: is that little lot fitted after painting, to keep the copper clean-ish?

Looks almost real...

[PAD]

Hi Jeff,

No, it's brush painted brass and copper afterwards. You can get away with it on pipes and lubricate pots and the like, especially after some weathering, but of course it wouldn't pass muster on copper caps or safety valve covers.

Cheers,

Peter

[Tim2014]

Thanks folks. Horse, the Alcyone was a new one on me, I had to look it up, I only know the 4 pots. I like working on Subies mostly, especially as we have no salt on the roads to rust everything.

Thanks for that pic Peter, Laurie advised he had a 4port manifold for the Ivatt but I couldnt find a pic of the prototype to see how much havking I'd need to do. I'll add two to the order.

I've been following the mixed views of raw metal vs painted and had already decided to paint (apart from safety valves maybe). I've seen such superb dry brushing by the games workshop folks that I reckon that beats anything I could do with solder and metal.

[Dave Holt]

According to the official painting instructions, the relief valves should be Brunswick Green, the same as the boiler/firebox, not "brass" colour. In any case, relief valves were made from gunmetal, which quickly discolours almost to black at boiler temperatures.

The item next to the lubricator is the atomiser assembly.

Dave.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Dave Holt

[Tim2014]

Thanks Dave - green they shall be then.  Do you know whether the whistle was painted green as well?  'Atomiser' added to my mental dictionary of steam engine vocab - very useful when searching catalogues and talking to people who supply parts!

[Dave Holt]

Thanks Dave - green they shall be then.  Do you know whether the whistle was painted green as well?  'Atomiser' added to my mental dictionary of steam engine vocab - very useful when searching catalogues and talking to people who supply parts!

The whistle was bare metal.

Dave.

[PAD]

Dave,

You mention relief valves being painted green, but Tim was referring to safety valves. The relief valves are attached to the cylinders not the boiler or firebox. Can you clarify please?

 

Surely the safety valves would be bare metal, which as you say would rapidly discolour to black, due to the high temperature.

Cheers,

Peter

[PAD]

Thanks for that pic Peter, Laurie advised he had a 4port manifold for the Ivatt but I couldnt find a pic of the prototype to see how much hacking I'd need to do. I'll add two to the order.

 

Tim,

On the Black V, there is a separate "tap" for isolating the atomiser. You can see it to the rear connected with piping. This part I had to make from scratch. Looking at the picture of the Scott one it's attached directly to the end of the 6 port atomized, so you will need to make this also. Mine was made from 6 or 7 separate parts and was a real pain so good luck with yours

Cheers,

Peter

[Tim2014]

Thanks Peter - yes, it will almost certainly be a rough representation rather than a scale replica - whereas yours looks magnificent.

 

I appreciate the clarification on the safety valves, whistle and cylinder relief valves, but I admit I'm surprised the cylinder relief valves are supposed to be green.  Loco profile No1 does confirm what I thought Dave said initially: Safety valves are Brunswick green (as are top-feed pipes).  Pg 30 and 31 of JR Carter The Colour of Steam Vol 10 has 3 lovely photos of newly paint shopped locos, including 46140, "The Kings Royal Rifle Corps" and 45669 "Fisher" and confirms green topfeed pipes.  In all 3 pics, any metal below the footplate looks to be either painted black or the oiled metal look of the motion Even the cylinder casing is black lined in red orange. There's no date, but the speedo on 46140 pins it broadly to Aug 1960 and Oct 1965.  The few colour pics I have of 46159 are either the wrong angle, or too grimy/grainy to make out the colour of either the safety valves or relief valves.

 

While we are on detail, if anyone can identify the front bogie wheel types of this copyright snippet of 46159 I would be most grateful, I have a suspicion this one ran with the unmatched fowler/stanier types:

 

[Horsetan]

....if anyone can identify the front bogie wheel types of this copyright snippet of 46159 I would be most grateful, I have a suspicion this one ran with the unmatched fowler/stanier types:

 

46159 front bogie.JPG

Leading: Stanier bevel

Trailing: Fowler plain