7mm Gladiator Royal Scot build

[Dave Holt]

Ah yes, THAT book! I've been trying to get hold of it since I started the build, so far to no avail.  Apparently a complete reprint is due out soon so everyone with hoarded copies should get them on ebay asap

Tim,

The dimensions I quoted were taken from drawings in the Wild Swan book. If you can't find a copy on the internet, why not ask your local library to get it on an inter-library loan?

Dave.

[Dave Holt]

Thanks Dave - that's going to be really helpful, I will convert tonight and get transfer the dimensions to the model.  The slope of the firebox is a bit of an unknown, but I reckon I'll be able to get a good enough angle from the beloved long distance pics the official photographers seemed to like. No good for close detail, but should be scalable for my work.

 

You wouldn't happen to know a source of scale drawings would you? They'd be really helpful and the NRM website defeated me!

Tim,

The O/D of the large end of the boiler cladding is 6'-35/16" - so the fire-box top is half that plus the cone offset of 31/32" above boiler horizontal CL. The height of the fire-box at the cab is 3'-13/4" above the boiler CL, so you can work out the slope on the top of the box 215/16" by my reckoning). Again, all info from drawings in the Wild Swan book.

Dave.

[Blandford1969]

Hi

 

As Richard pointed out, it's at the SVR this weekend (17-20th). I would try and get there myself, but there is a small matter of two intercontinental flights and a not-insignificant amount of hard-earned that rules it out (I'm in Perth, Western Australia!).  If anyone does get there and can get pics of any of my 3 areas of interest:

1. Overhead pics of the firebox/boiler/dome area, esp the firebox to boiler transition

2. Footplate height shots under the boiler

3. The splasher to firebox junctions

I would be very, very grateful.  I'm hoping my Dad can get over there with a camera but apparently he might have other things to do (outrageous)!

 

How's your DA one coming along Len?

3rd edit - must think before posting!

I don't mind scaling the dimensions, *ANY* high res scale drawing would be fine if you know of any source...

When you say footplate height shots under the boiler what are you trying to get, I might be able take something while oiling her up on Saturday am.

 

I will see what else I can take for you.

 

Best wishes
Duncan

[Tim2014]

Tim,

The dimensions I quoted were taken from drawings in the Wild Swan book. If you can't find a copy on the internet, why not ask your local library to get it on an inter-library loan?

Dave.

That Dave is a very fine idea that I had not thought of. One phone call later and it seems there are no copies available in any library in Australia! I do appreciate you taking the time and effort to get the dimensions out of it though.  The firebox dims will be helpful at nailing where I need to get to (at least within the tolerances I'm happy to accept, which are probably a lot more generous than some, it is 7mm running on O Gauge after all!).

Edited September 16, 2015 by Tim2014

[Tim2014]

Hi

 

When you say footplate height shots under the boiler what are you trying to get, I might be able take something while oiling her up on Saturday am.

 

I will see what else I can take for you.

 

Best wishes

Duncan

Hi Duncan, If you can oblige, that would be awesome! I'm really trying to get an idea of whether there is any daylight visible under the boiler.  Roughly shots at this sort of angle to compare model to real thing:

 

I'm simply amazed that by building a model and talking about it here, I've made contact with someone who will be oiling up one of the last two examples of the real loco in a couple of days time.  The web, this site, and the generosity of people like yourself is fantastic!  Please don't go to any trouble on my account though if you can't get anything don't worry at all! I hope the day goes really well - I'll be there in spirit!

[Blandford1969]

Tim,

 

No worries, it really will be no trouble. I will probably pop down on Friday evening just to have a walk round her. I admit to being rather excited at the realisation I will drive one on Saturday. The only question is if I bring my Pines Express headboard out as I have a neg of Royal Scot leaving Bath on the northbound Pines.

 

Are you ok if I post the photos into this thread or would you prefer them elsewhere?

 

best wishes

Duncan

[Dave Holt]

Hi Duncan, If you can oblige, that would be awesome! I'm really trying to get an idea of whether there is any daylight visible under the boiler.  Roughly shots at this sort of angle to compare model to real thing:

Tim,

Looking closely at the lower shot, it looks as if the smoke box is not sitting down at the rear end of the saddle? If so, the problem may lie at the boiler/fire-box joint?

As far as I can make out, the boiler CL I referred to previously should be 3'-0" above the top of the running plate - a useful reference plane in a model, but not really relevant to the full size. From this and previous dimensions, you can check the heights to the top of the boiler and fire-box at the key places.

According to my hand calcs, the underside of the smoke-box and boiler should be a scale 15/8" above the running plate, but you'd better check my maths!

Dave.

[Tim2014]

Tim,

 

No worries, it really will be no trouble. I will probably pop down on Friday evening just to have a walk round her. I admit to being rather excited at the realisation I will drive one on Saturday. The only question is if I bring my Pines Express headboard out as I have a neg of Royal Scot leaving Bath on the northbound Pines.

 

Are you ok if I post the photos into this thread or would you prefer them elsewhere?

 

best wishes

Duncan

Thanks so much Duncan! Where's the 'WOW!' rating button: what an experience (I wouldn't have a clue how to drive a real one btw), I can imagine that being so close, and in control, of such a vintage piece of British machinery breathing fire and smoke and thinking of all the miles she's done and people that have driven her could be just be a little bit emotional. I caught a pic on the web from a few days ago (sans name plates) and she looked absolutely stunning.  I'm definitely OK with you posting any photos here if that's also OK with you.  I'm new here and don't know for certain what the rules are, but I can't see how photos of a prototype on a build thread can be a problem to anyone.

 

Now this is the emoticon for you:

Edited September 16, 2015 by Tim2014

[Tim2014]

Tim,

Looking closely at the lower shot, it looks as if the smoke box is not sitting down at the rear end of the saddle? If so, the problem may lie at the boiler/fire-box joint?

As far as I can make out, the boiler CL I referred to previously should be 3'-0" above the top of the running plate - a useful reference plane in a model, but not really relevant to the full size. From this and previous dimensions, you can check the heights to the top of the boiler and fire-box at the key places.

According to my hand calcs, the underside of the smoke-box and boiler should be a scale 15/8" above the running plate, but you'd better check my maths!

Dave.

Ah, you've got eagle eyes. I was a little worried someone might spot that. That last pair of shots I did with my smartphone having removed the saddle completely (to see what the firebox angle looked like and the front of the loco, as there are lots of near 'head on' pics).  I may get a couple of good photos and try and scale the footplate thickness (which I think was 3/4" sheet) to the gap between footplate and smokebox to figure out roughly what I should be aiming for.  I suspect that getting that gap substantially wrong will stand out like (<insert chosen animal here>) proverbials.

Doing that made the firebox top parallel with the rails so that's definitely too much of a 'rotation', I'll check the slope and hopefully just have to drop the whole assembly lower.  It's going to be a long numerate night...

[Dave Holt]

Tim,

The foot plate was only 1/4" thick.

Dave.

[Tim2014]

Thanks for that correction Dave, I've had one pass at it now and came up with a gap of 2.25".

Here's my useless contribution for the night:

=MID(B2,1,(FIND("'",B2)-1))+(MID(B2,(FIND("'",B2)+1),(FIND("""",B2)-1)-(FIND("'",B2)+1)+1)/12)

 

That formula in Excel will take any imperial value in the cell to the left delimited by ' for ft and " for in (eg: 13'2.75") and convert it to decimal feet (eg 13.229).  It's then easy to multiply that result by 7 to get the dimension in 7mm to one foot scale. I'm sure many people have done that before but still, I'm posting more to explain what I spent most of this evening's modelling time doing rather than because I think anyone will find it useful!  So far it would have been *much quicker* to work the dimensions I've done manually.  But with another 5 r 6 I might be getting a payoff, and by doing them in XL I can check my work and return to check the model at a later date.

Good night!

[Horsetan]

Ah yes, THAT book! I've been trying to get hold of it since I started the build, so far to no avail.  Apparently a complete reprint is due out soon so everyone with hoarded copies should get them on ebay asap

 

Nah, just buy the new one and add it to the hoard.... 

[Dave Holt]

Thanks for that correction Dave, I've had one pass at it now and came up with a gap of 2.25".

Have re-checked my hand calculations using a calculator and still reckon the gap is 15/8" (1111/4" - 0.5 x 691/4" - 75").

Dave.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Dave Holt

[Tim2014]

Have re-checked my hand calculations using a calculator and still reckon the gap is 15/8" (1111/4" - 0.5 x 691/4" - 75").

Dave.

You are almost certainly right, my mind was mush last night. I will recheck tonight after work.

[Tim2014]

Yay! After another failed attempt to score the Wild Swan Royal Scot Profile book last night, The Champion Top Bloke OzzyO has come to my rescue with some very decent scale drawings - Cheers Ozzy, you are a legend!

I now have dimensions and details that I could only have dreamed of.  Thanks to all who have chipped in with dimensions to date - now to measure, compile and report back!

[scot6p]

Hi Tim, I don't know if these photo's might help they are Scots Guardsman at  Crewe.

I have some more but they are to big to upload (any-body know how to reduce the size?)

 

Len

 

 

Edited September 17, 2015 by scot6p

[Sandy Harper]

Hi Tim, I don't know if these photo's might help they are Scots Guardsman at  Crewe.

I have some more but they are to big to upload (any-body know how to reduce the size?)

 

Len

 

DSCF0025 (2).JPG

 

DSCF0027 (2).JPG

Select PAINT from your windows list of programmes. Select OPEN and go to your picture file. Select the picture you want to resize and select OPEN. The picture will now appear in paint at an enormous size. On the top bar select RESIZE. Select PIXELS, select MAINTAIN ASPECT RATIO and change the top number to 1000. The picture will now resize to a manageable size for posting. Don't forget to SAVE.

 

Regards

Sandy

[Tim2014]

Hi Tim, I don't know if these photo's might help they are Scots Guardsman at  Crewe.

I have some more but they are to big to upload (any-body know how to reduce the size?)

 

Len

 

DSCF0025 (2).JPG

 

DSCF0027 (2).JPG

Thanks Len - that's exactly the angle I was after - Duncan I think you can skip that angle now - although both Dave's calculations and the scale drawings indicate there should be ~1.6 inches of daylight under there somewhere.  I'm guessing that's a great place for 'crud' to accumulate though so maybe that's why it looks so dark there. The curve of the cladding really does look like it goes beneath the footplate level, but the drawings indicate that's definitely not the case. I suppose the camera angle is going to be critical getting a 1" gap lined up across the footplate.  Either way, I have ~1.6mm under there when it should be around 0.9 mm.  My brain is fried again so will calc and check footplate to top of boiler/firebox/smokebox dimensions tomorrow.  Moving back from the smokebox I have a 2.4 mm gap on the loco between the rear of the boiler and the footplate, so it looks like I need 1.5mm lowering in the firebox area, rather less at the front.

 

If Duncan does get any shots the comparison in condition will be stunning! When were those pics taken Len?

[Tim2014]

Select PAINT from your windows list of programmes. Select OPEN and go to your picture file. Select the picture you want to resize and select OPEN. The picture will now appear in paint at an enormous size. On the top bar select RESIZE. Select PIXELS, select MAINTAIN ASPECT RATIO and change the top number to 1000. The picture will now resize to a manageable size for posting. Don't forget to SAVE.

 

Regards

Sandy

But just be careful you DON'T save over the original! Been there done that

Thanks for helping Sandy and Len, I really appreciate all this help, I hope I can finish the model to a standard that makes it all worthwhile!

[scot6p]

Hi Tim, thanks to Sandy here is the pictures I missed, also Scots Guardsman was photographed about 1999 at Crewe.

 

Len

 

 

This one was at Camden.

 

[JeffP]

Second photo is lovely, the lighting is spot on, the subject is clean, but not paintshop fresh, the background works nicely...lovely!

[Tim2014]

Hi Tim, thanks to Sandy here is the pictures I missed, also Scots Guardsman was photographed about 1999 at Crewe.

 

Len

 

Royal Scot at Crewe works.jpg for web.jpg

 

This one was at Camden.

 

15270091547_6a0613ef26_k.jpg for web.jpg

Thanks Len (and Sandy!) Those are nice and not too long ago - but would have been scanned from prints then I presume, very nice work, I really appreciate you posting them up.  If i can bring myself to weather the paintwork at all, that second shot is pretty where I'll be trying to get to with 46159.  I do have a pic from Willesden in the early 60's, only B/W, which shows pretty shiny paint so I'm sure for the odd run or two she could have looked like that. I'm torn though between shedding her at Willeden or Crew North as the Jubillee (up next!) was shedded at Crewe North around 1960.  Mind you, pretty stupid worrying about things like that when the background scenery is the garden plants!  Not to mention that putting name plates on 46159, let alone finishing the Jube is rather getting ahead of myself!!! Must stay focussed...

 

That first photo has lovely detail of the brake hanger brackets - that's one area where leaving the etch cusps on them would have been OK!  Duncan, if you are still reading, that angle but about 1 foot or so higher would be really helpful to see the spasher/firebox/boiler junction.

[scot6p]

Hi Tim the first shot were from Pete Waterman and last shot was on flickr. Simon Thompson did 3D casting of the brake hangers and shoe's for me, no getting shorts for me.

 

Len

[dikitriki]

Hi Tim,

 

I have spent today on the SVR chasing the Royal Scot and Britannia.We also saw 2 rebuilt West Countries, 28XX, Flying Pig amongst others - a cracking day.

 

By extreme good fortune, the Royal Scot and Brit were parked under the footbridge at Bridgnorth, so I took the opportunity to do a full photographic survey from the top down, and I have a few hundred photos. I'm not going to dump them here, but I will give you a flavour which will show you the sort of detail I was after for my own purposes. I am happy to post the photos as you come to need details.

 

This is the only one I took all day with full loco in shot!

 

 

It looked in fantastic condition.

 

This one answers your boiler height issue:

 

 

It was taken as near as I could get it looking flat across the footplate. There's no daylight visible. I reckon if you put some brass shim across the top of the footplate and rest the bottom of the boiler on that, you won't be far out.

 

Edit - found a second photo from a bit further away showing the same thing:

 

 

The following 3 shots are just a sample:

 

 

 

 

I'll have a look as to how I approached the firebox later. Heyside went out to an exhibition a couple of weeks ago, and I'm in a bit of a mess at the moment!

 

Cheers

 

Richard

Edited September 18, 2015 by dikitriki

[Tim2014]

Have re-checked my hand calculations using a calculator and still reckon the gap is 15/8" (1111/4" - 0.5 x 691/4" - 75").

Dave.

Hi Dave,

I've checked this with a recharged brain and I concur with your calculation.  I think that last dimension is rail head to main footplate (75"), and if I use that I get the same gap of 1 5/8".  But I have a value of 6'1.5" (73.5") for that dimension noted down too and no idea where I got that from, which would give a larger gap.

I can also work it out based on the distance between the footplate to the boiler c/line (3.0') minus the smokebox radius (0.5 x 5'9.25") and get 1 3/8". That's close enough to your value for me and so if I can get about 0.8 to 0.95 mm for the gap I think it should look right.  Thanks so much for your help, it's very useful to be able to double check these calculation, I'm a metric lad and imperial does my head in!