Will I regret not laying track underlay ?

[topsy11]

Hello.

 

I've had my track down a few weeks and been waiting to get a few underlays to try.

 

My layouts in the loft and bolted to the joists which probably doesn't help things.

 

I wouldn't say its overly noisy and I can certainly live with the noise although in an ideal world I'd like it a little quieter.

 

I've had a try with some 3mm cork and 3mm closed cell foam which is double sticky backed. When the train passes over the sections with the underlay the sound does change but I wouldn't say it makes it any quieter to be honest. Now I've changed the points to Peco ones the trains run very nicely.

 

This is my first layout and I want to get things right so is there any other reason to put some underlay down. I will be ballasting the layout (when I get to that stage) so don't want it for the aesthetics and more concerned at this stage of the running of the trains.

 

Anyone who's had a layout for a few years and can offer some advice would be greatly appreciated. 

 

Thank you.

[Dagworth]

I've never used underlay, never had a problem, I prefer a solid trackbed so it doesn't move and I like the noise of wheel on rail

 

Andi

[Andy Hayter]

I have use expanded PS and later cork.  The PS tended to deform with any weight put on it - like the modellers ham-fist for example.  So the change to Cork.

 

As soon as you glue down the track with a ballast or use track pins to hold the track to the baseboard, you bridge the soundproofing that underlay is claimed to provide.  The bridging may not be as bad as laying track directly on the baseboard, but the acoustic benefit is compromised.

 

The only reason therefore that I continue to use underlay is that it raises the track and makes the modelling of the cess at the side of the track somewhat easier.

[Kris]

I've never missed not using it since I built my first layout. 

[bike2steam]

I don't use underlay to deaden sound, to be honest it's a myth. I use it to give a realistic track-bed profile, as the previous post, to give a good shoulder, and cess.

[ColinK]

I've used the Peco underlay on my OO layout. I appreciate it does not last forever, but,

- it does deaden the sound

- when the track is laid and its all painted, it looks fine (I have exhibhited my layout with no adverse comments on it).

- it doesn't gum up all the track like loose ballast.

- plus my main reason for using it; the layout will only have a lifespan of about 5 years, after which I will dismantle it, because I've used the foam underlay, I will be able to lift and reuse the track very easily - important give the cost of all the pointwork.

[hayfield]

The noise you hear is amplified by your base boards, as they act like a drum. If you use cork underlay then stick the ballast with PVA glue, this will lock everything into one mass and amplify the sound

 

Close cell foam will reduce the sound only if you use laytex glue. The one good thing any underlay will do is give you a ballast shoulder. I have been considering using 2 sheets of 3 mm closed cell foam to see if the thicker track bed works better

[Graham Walters]

I think I posted this elsewhere.

 

A couple of weeks back I had the opportunity to hear the difference between cork and Woodland Scenics track underlay.

 

I know which I will be using, the difference is noticeable, using WS may be more expensive, but the noise level is less than half that of cork.

[HLT 0109]

To some extent it depends on the thickness of the baseboard.  I have a large layout and it is my first one.  So, I started in the recommended way with cork underlay but I also have 12mm thick plywood.  Running was quite quiet until I ballasted but I get little if any drumming.  I decided that the cork was not worth the effort but, it is easier to continue with it than to do a transition to an area without it.  However, I then put in a gradient to a lower level and omitted the cork as I laid the transition from level to incline - still using thick baseboard.  The sound is no different.  Recently I have extended the lower level  to a colliery area that is on an area of 6mm plywood without cork.  I definitely get drumming in that area.  I suspect that that would not happen if I had laid cork under that area of track.

 

I have just read in an old issue of Hornby Magazine that a maker of baseboards in Yorkshire puts dense foam board under their baseboards in order to improve sound deadening.  Perhaps this is an alternative to track underlay.

 

Harold.

 

Edit: Re-read the article and see that the product used is "36mm high-density fire retardant polystyrene"

[Silver Sidelines]

I have had a number of large loft layouts.   Never used underlay.

 

You don't say what baseboards you are using.  Harold above makes the point about the thickness of his layout.  I would say the 'mass' of the baseboard structure is all iimportant in deciding whether there will be resonance or drumming.  My early layouts used 1/2 inch chipboard, the latest incarnation uses 1/2 inch medium density fibre board (MDF), in all cases very well supported with 1" x 2" framing carried by 3" x 1" 'L' girders - making a very solid construction.

 

Initially I simply pinned Peco Streamline to the baseboard.  This allows the track to float and it is very quiet.  With time I was persuaded to ballast the track which has increased the noise levels  - but not so that it is too intrusive.  There is another thread about track noise here on RMweb which perhaps ties in with your concerns.  There is a link here to one of my old videos which has the Blue Pullman traversing both ballasted and unballasted track - all without underlay.  I think very therapeutic.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[grahame]

I've never used underlay and its never been a problem. Just make sure the track bed/baseboard is flat and sound. The issue about helping form a shoulder to the ballast is red herring IMO - most commercial track has thick enough sleepers that when you ballast to the top of them it is easy to form a shoulder at the edge.

[Dagworth]

I have just read in an old issue of Hornby Magazine that a maker of baseboards in Yorkshire puts dense foam board under their baseboards in order to improve sound deadening.  Perhaps this is an alternative to track underlay.

 

Harold.

Steeldeck staging often has something akin to carpet underlay fixed under it to stop it resonating, it seems to work

 

Andi 

[rob D2]

I use cork, it doesn't do much except give me somewhere to hide the rod i tubes for point actuation

[Peter Beckett]

After 5 years my old layout has been scrapped as I wanted a different track configuration. I had used Woodlands and the layout took most of a 60 feet X 30 feet room in my workshop and I did not consider it lessened track noise. Except as others have stated about the shoulder, I considered it a waste of time and money so the new layout will be pinned initially and ballasted directly to the baseboard. I have laid about 40 feet of track with 10 points so far and my locos appear to have the same noise level as the old layout (not very scientific observations, I know, but I am a modeller not a scientist)

So to the OP, go for it. 

 

Peter

[hayfield]

Expense should not be too much of a problem if you buy the underlay in sheets. C&L do closed cell, but others use sleeping mats from camping outlets. Cork in sheets is also far cheaper than pre cut sheets. As said these items do help provide a prototypical shoulder, a place to hide rods/tubes etc, but for souln deadening qualities use Latex glue, not PVA. The biggest gain on the sound deadening front would be to fill up the underneath voids with foam rubber or expanded polystyrene. 

[bike2steam]

I've never used underlay and its never been a problem. Just make sure the track bed/baseboard is flat and sound. The issue about helping form a shoulder to the ballast is red herring IMO - most commercial track has thick enough sleepers that when you ballast to the top of them it is easy to form a shoulder at the edge.

You'll need really deep sleepers to represent this;-

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16749798@N08/5575304866/in/photostream/

Trackbed thickness varies from location to location, something you find out when researching for layout building.

[brianusa]

Interesting! In this country, underlay is mostly used while back home it appears infrequently! Commercial sheets are available here in what might be described as bulletin board (the kind you stick drawing pins in) under various brand names from DIY shops. Most model railway mags advocate its use and I use it with my tinplate layout on top of a plywood base.

 

Brian.

[LNER4479]

I use Peco underlay and agree with all the points ColinK makes above.

 

People comment on the smooth (quiet) running on my current layout and I believe the foam underlay - at least in part - contributes to this.

[ajaxjones]

FWIW I would think an experiment of applying sound deadening to the baseboard might be worth it.

I used to apply Dyna mat to my VW car door skins and it made huge differences to noise levels.

[Jenny Emily]

I have never used underlay, and have never had a problem. My exhibition layout is only a shunting layout so you would never be running trains fast enough to experience track noise through the baseboards. My home layout doesn't have any issues, and what sound there is is more theraputic than noisy.

 

There are lots of videos both in my layout thread on here and on my Youtube channel that illistrate what sound you do get. Bear in mind that the camera and microphone are often right next to the train which makes any noise you do hear far louder than it actually is in real life (as illistrated by the apparent quieter running of the trains when on the garden section).

[Graham Walters]

Thinking about this, perhaps we have to re-assess how we build our baseboards, when we build them we are in fact creating a bodged speaker that will amplify any noise, part of the problem has to be using screws to fix the baseboards down, the alternative of sticking it down isn't practical.

 

So perhaps as well as trying to isolate the track from the baseboard, we need to someway isolate the baseboard from the frame, the use of an open frame would no doubt be quieter, you could also use isolation pads where the baseboard is screwed down, a piece of rubber between the base and the frame would help stop the transmission of noise.

[John Tomlinson]

My OO layout uses Peco 75 laid on cork tiles (B&Q?), in turn on braced 6mm plywood. The cork is useful as it holds pins easily, which allows adjustment of track to ensure smooth curves and no doglegs at joints. Once ballasted with chippings and PVA any sound reduction from the cork vanishes, as has been already mentioned. I don't feel too bad about this, as I've yet to stand by the the real railway as a train passes in silence!

 

Many years ago I built a small N gauge layout using Peco track and their fitted foam underlay which functions as ballast. I found it difficult to get the track level as the foam compresses when the track is pinned, but managed something reasonable after a lot of faffing about and adjustment. Much worse however was that with time the foam decomposed. I had dismantled the layout after a house move and carefully stored the bits in the dark and at house temperature away from specific heat sources, however when I opened the boxes containing the underlay after a few years a lot of it had crumbled to dust.

 

So, to answer your question, if you've already laid your track and are happy with the performance I shouldn't give underlay a second thought!.

 

John.