Dettingen GCR might have been layout

[65179]

3 hours ago, richard i said:

Butler henderson’s tender help? 
has anyone climbed up on top of the tender to take a photo of all the gear? 
any one passing by barrow ( where it is?) to see what it is like. I know there is not a standard gcr tender but….

 

as an interesting aside it is noticeable how much more we have to say about locos than the carriages they pull. Me included. It shows how loco centric railway enthusiasts are in the main. ( myself included) I have to be disciplined with myself to build the carriages I need rather than another loco. 
richard 

 

It all depends how many rabbit holes you are prepared to disappear down Richard!

 

I've spent a fair amount of time researching coaches, but the lococentric nature of most photographers makes even getting the right types hard, assuming they are available in rtr or kit form. Then there's wagons, road vehicles, signage, etc.

 

Butler Henderson has a self-trimming tender so the scoop gear is I think hidden under the 'hopper' in the coalspace.

 

Sorry for hijacking your thread. 

 

Best wishes,

Simon

Edited May 30, 2022 by 65179

[t-b-g]

I had chance to climb on the tender behind Butler Henderson as long ago as 2008. It was done by prior arrangement and with permission from Barrow Hill.

 

It is a self trimming tender so not all the gear is visible but here are some of my photos from the visit. I took many more if there are any other aspects of the tender that people would like to see.

 

Just look at all those rivets hidden away out of normal view! Who will be putting all those on a model? I haven't yet.

 

[Woodcock29]

16 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

Hi Andrew,

 

I saw this photo and thought it was an 8 spoke wheel until I looked at the spacing. It's actually a 6 spoke wheel with the extra visible 'spoke' in the middle being the single  handle that sticks out from the wheel rim on these wheels as built. This is clearly visible in the side elevation of the drawing I mentioned in my last post (although as noted it shows the wheel wrongly with 8 spokes).

 

Regards,

Simon 

Ah I think that is probably the right answer Simon, otherwise we would have found some other examples. Just goes to show how easily we can be mislead by viewing from certain angles.

Andrew

Edited May 30, 2022 by Woodcock29
Typo

[richard i]

No hijacking of the thread. it is all interesting and useful. 
 

thanks for the photos Tony. It shows I should not have tried so hard to get the lifting lugs at 90 degrees. It also shows that the front box behind the wheel is much shallower and rounded that I imagined. 
As for the detail on the side of the water filler. Looks very feasible with overlays and archer rivet transfers. Perhaps on the next tender. 
 

richard 
 

[65179]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

I had chance to climb on the tender behind Butler Henderson as long ago as 2008. It was done by prior arrangement and with permission from Barrow Hill.

 

It is a self trimming tender so not all the gear is visible but here are some of my photos from the visit. I took many more if there are any other aspects of the tender that people would like to see.

 

 

Very useful. Thanks for posting these Tony,  particularly as I've a couple of these tenders to build. Have you got any more showing the tender front and rear vacuum pipe?

 

Thanks,

Simon

[t-b-g]

58 minutes ago, 65179 said:

 

Very useful. Thanks for posting these Tony,  particularly as I've a couple of these tenders to build. Have you got any more showing the tender front and rear vacuum pipe?

 

Thanks,

Simon

Glad to be able to help Simon.

 

I am not sure how original the tender front is. There seems to have been some new plating there but here are a few more. I think that this one may have had the sanding gear removed at some stage.

[Woodcock29]

Thanks for the additional photos Tony. I'd seen your previous posting before but these additional images are quite useful. I took a few myself in 2013 but of course I couldn't climb all over the tender.

Andrew

[richard i]

The next puzzle.

how is all this supposed to work. Firstly I can see if I make the slots bigger I could perhaps rotate it over one of the cylinder ends. It then how to the move it over the second. Cylinder end. Without bending it.

then I am assuming the cross members get cut otherwise the cross head will not be able to slide and the connecting rod would clash with the cross pieces.

ideas?

I just don’t want to cut them off if they are going to be needed some how.

I hope this makes sense.

richard

[65179]

10 hours ago, richard i said:

The next puzzle.

how is all this supposed to work. Firstly I can see if I make the slots bigger I could perhaps rotate it over one of the cylinder ends. It then how to the move it over the second. Cylinder end. Without bending it.

then I am assuming the cross members get cut otherwise the cross head will not be able to slide and the connecting rod would clash with the cross pieces.

ideas?

I just don’t want to cut them off if they are going to be needed some how.

I hope this makes sense.

richard

 

Looking at what you have there and other similar assemblies I've seen,  this is my best guess:

 

The middle of the slidebar piece will form the far end of the slidebars (I.e. the end away from the cylinders). The far end of the slidebar piece (as you have it there) will eventually fit onto the end of the cylinders.

 

You need to fold the slidebars in half back on themselves,   fold up the semi-circular piece at right angles and then solder up. Then both remove the various cross pieces and offer the semi-circular bit up to the cylinders ready to fit it/see how it fits. When you attach them depends on how you are checking cylinder alignment, whether you are putting a piston tube down the middle of the cylinders etc.

 

I can't tell whether one slidebar half is longer than the other to tell whether there will effectively be prongs extending beyond the semi-circular piece which fit in slots in the cylinder ends.

 

I could have of course be totally wrong!

 

Also what you end up with may or may not actually look like the real thing. It looks like you'll end up with slidebars that appear like they have a T cross-section (but with the rear of the T not represented by the etch). Most GC slidebars aren't like that. Mike Edge posted a picture of the preserved O4 to illustrate this on 30368's workbench thread. I think unfortunately that is one of the 'lost' images. Also the taper on the slidebars doesn't seem to correspond with the typical GC shape. This may or may not matter to you depending on how weak/strong the assembly is.

 

Simon

[richard i]

thank you

I was starting to think along those lines. The indents in the front end of the cylinder was throwing me. I also need to work out if the semi circle goes to the inside or outside of the cylinder. 
if I fit a piston rod tube I can make it sit proud to look like the exit from the cylinder.

also for the piston rod. Should I use .7 or .9 brass rod? What diameter is a piston rod in real life? If correctly scaled will that still have enough engineering integrity?

richard

ps I do not think the slide bar supports do not line up with the cylinder end slots. I am more and more convinced that this etch did not have a test build, and if it did it was not in 4mm. 

 

[gr.king]

Are the fold lines in the slidebars deep enough, and on the correct faces, to allow you to initially just fold them double as Simon suggests, then orient the plain face of the bars to the outside, fold the semi-circle at 90 degrees to the bars, and then hook/twist the un-trimmed bar assembly so that the bars just engage loosely with the slots in the rear end plate for the cylinders, with the semi-circle against the front (inside) face of that rear plate, then ease the rest of the bars into place between the upper and lower lugs of the support bracket at the rear?

[richard i]

The cylinder structure needed altering as it was too narrow. I need to check it all lines up once the soldering is done. I need the cross head to slide parallel to the running plate. 

I still need to solve the fact that the cutout is on the wrong section to line up with the chassis. 
I doubt feedback will get the etch changed but perhaps this might log what needs to be done to make it work. If I can make it all come together properly.

richard 

[richard i]

I have beaten these into some semblance of use. The front bogie and the cylinder block. The slide bars had to be reversed. I might have to fill the side to make it flush. It is now 2 layers thick, it is provided with only one internal layer on the cross head etch. I can see some more scratchbuilding coming on.

perhaps faster progress can be made now.

richard 

[jimwal]

Good use of the trophy base Richard. Hope you have kept the trophy to award it to yourself when you complete the loco.

[richard i]

No trophy alas, but the sample of the colour her ladyship wants the kitchen counter top to be. I had to have an opinion. Fortunately I guessed right and agreed with her.

richard 

[richard i]

Atlantics parked for a while as away from the work bench. 
have been able to take this perseverance kit with me for the full brake, clearstory and all.

it comes with 4 ends. But which to use? Bill suggests no windows and steps but could not post picture on the lner forum. Am away from my books too.
so picture here for anyone who has built one, which ends to use?

thanks

richard

[James Harrison]

There's a three-quarter view of van #520 in Dow volume 3 showing a blank panelled end.  There's also a drawing of the corridor version likewise showing blank panelled ends. 

[richard i]

2 hours ago, James Harrison said:

There's a three-quarter view of van #520 in Dow volume 3 showing a blank panelled end.  There's also a drawing of the corridor version likewise showing blank panelled ends. 

Which end is definitely blank paneled? The one away from the single door or at the single door end. As I said away from my books at present. 
does the drawing say both ends blank panel? 
thanks

richard 

[James Harrison]

9 hours ago, richard i said:

Which end is definitely blank paneled? The one away from the single door or at the single door end. As I said away from my books at present. 
does the drawing say both ends blank panel? 
thanks

richard 

 

The photograph shows the end closer to the single door. 

The drawing simply says 'end elevations see M' and 'M' is a blank panel end. 

[billbedford]

15 hours ago, richard i said:

Atlantics parked for a while as away from the work bench. 
have been able to take this perseverance kit with me for the full brake, clearstory and all.

it comes with 4 ends. But which to use? Bill suggests no windows and steps but could not post picture on the lner forum. Am away from my books too.
so picture here for anyone who has built one, which ends to use?

 

Oh, I can see where the confusion comes. This is a clerestory full brake to diagram 1Y8, numbers 1651-8. 520 as show in Dow is a diagram 1Y10. If this is all the etchings you have then the clerestory sides are missing. 

 

You have the brake end etch correct, but the plain end should not have the panelling around the slots for the alarm gear. 

 

I've looked through all my GC books without finding a photo of one of these coaches. 

[65179]

6 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

Oh, I can see where the confusion comes. This is a clerestory full brake to diagram 1Y8, numbers 1651-8. 520 as show in Dow is a diagram 1Y10. If this is all the etchings you have then the clerestory sides are missing. 

 

You have the brake end etch correct, but the plain end should not have the panelling around the slots for the alarm gear. 

 

I've looked through all my GC books without finding a photo of one of these coaches. 

 

I seem to remember that 

@jwealleans has built one of these (a Perseverance 1Y8). Perhaps he had some photos for reference?

 

Edit: here's the link to the completed model (part way down the page): https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=937&start=2160

 

Regards,

Simon

Edited July 30, 2022 by 65179
Link added

[richard i]

Thanks both.

I do have more of the kit, I just thought that these bits were most relevant to the discussion. I have the clearstory sides but no roof so will have to make that. 
for clarity Bill when you say that it should not have the paneling around the alarm gear, that is because you are saying it should not have alarm gear?

I have an end with steps but no alarm gear so could use that. 
thanks James for the Dow reference. I am cautious of his diagrams as I have found detail anomalies with others as I look at photos of the carriages through their life, so if the photo shows a plain end then he has drawn that, perhaps without considering the other end. Don’t get me wrong, a great resource but a starting point. I should have done more research before packing this as my traveling project.

many thanks Richard 

[gr.king]

Will photos taken today of John Quick's model of a 50' clerestory brake be helpful? If so I can add them on the LNER channel.

[billbedford]

11 hours ago, richard i said:

for clarity Bill when you say that it should not have the paneling around the alarm gear, that is because you are saying it should not have alarm gear?

I have an end with steps but no alarm gear so could use that. 

 

Yep, alarm gear was only ever fitted for passengers to use, so full brakes didn't have it. 

[richard i]

9 hours ago, gr.king said:

Will photos taken today of John Quick's model of a 50' clerestory brake be helpful? If so I can add them on the LNER channel.

Most useful. Have seen them.

thank you.