Are "fake' models a likelyhood I wonder

[TheWeatheringMan]

Hi All,

Now I realise that this subject is perhaps a bit distasteful in some ways but the line of thought was triggered by watching the BBC 1 program 'Fake Britain' this morning where one of the subjects came very close to our world.

The subject in question was faking of Star Wars toys, which it seemed have a large following by collectors.

Most of what was shown was made by Palitoy, who of course were the parent company of Mainline Railways - which along with the Airfix, later GMR range did so much to 'raise the bar' on RTR models and began the improvements to RTR that have led to the superb models we are offered today.

 

As we all know there has been a remorsless increase in the price of our model railway items, something that has been caused, at least in part, by the increasing costs of Chineese production.

Now this has clearly effected many other product ranges unrelated to model railways in all walks of life.

 

Viewing the BBC program for the past few weeks its very clear that almost any product is now a target for the counterfeiters.

Today's program with the model collecting article triggered my thoughts here.

With the increased price of our models is it possible that we could see counterfeit model railway items (i'd think most likely the high price items such as locomotives) start to appear.

Whilst our market may be small in relation to some, the range of products featured on the BBC makes it obvious that its not always the mass market items that are subject to counterfeiting.

 

Regretably should this happen then its likely that the products of the 'big two' would be copied.

Perhaps it wont happen - and I sincerely hope it does not as it would be likely to harm the future prospects of the hobby and its genuine manufacturers.

I think it would be fair to say that the terrible dangers that have been highlighted by the BBC would mostly not apply within our hobby - unless the counterfeiting extended to power units - but its not something we would want to see.

 

However there is a very valid point that needs to be kept in mind here.

We have seen, since earlier this year, a range of static model locomotives (and the subject of a very active and interesting thread within RMWeb) that have in themselves actually been good for the hobby in encouraging more among us to take up conversion and detailing.

These models have been copied from the products of the 'big two' in the main - with varying degrees of sucess and quality of build and finish.

 

Now is it not fair to say that this process could be repeated and added to with a poorly built chassis to produce a total counterfeit locomotive.

Remember that counterfeiting of a product has already happened within our hobby - I am thinking here particularly in the field of etched brass items a good few years ago so just how close are we I wonder.

 

My thinking here may well be totally wrong - and i'm sure many will join me in hoping it is.

But I do genuinly think its a subject worth airing and is, in this day and age, somewhat thought provoking.

 

I'm sure many Members would like to hear the thoughts of others.

 

Regards All

[Vanders]

We've already seen some people trying to "pass off" the Hachette Mk1's as more expensive coaches, so I guess it's possible. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if someone got hold of some old toolings and started to crank out cheap wagons, but I'd be very surprised to see anyone go to the lengths of producing an actual running chassis for a locomotive.

[woodenhead]

So we can expect shoddy copies of already shoddy models!

 

For there to be a flood of counterfeit models there would need to be large network and demand for the product.

 

Model railways sell through recognised lines and retailers, you are not going to find a £1 type shop stocking Dapol Terriers for example. This will make it harder for counterfeiters to enter the market selling whole models.

 

But when it comes to components - who knows, perhaps we already suffer from the problem - dodgy electrics in some Dapol models, ongoing sporadic split gears in Farish models - I cannot comment on OO gauge but I expect here too there might be some components that are less robust than they should be.  It is possible that in a bid to save money or cut corners some models have received parts that are not quite to specification or from an alternative source.

 

Of course this is just a 'maybe' not in anyway a confirmation or proof that we have suffered unknowingly at the hands of counterfeiters or dealers in dodgy components.

[roundhouse]

As most models are now made in the countries where fake goods are often purported to come from I am not sure where else you could get cheaper versions from!!

[Quarryscapes]

With counterfeiting it's only likely that the toy train product lines would be affected. A poor model won't sell well to the discerning modeller no matter who makes it. On the other hand if they really did manage to pull off a perfectly dimension Replica of something like the Bachmann Dukedog it might sell very well to those who'd want to regauge it... 

[TheWeatheringMan]

So we can expect shoddy copies of already shoddy models!

 

For there to be a flood of counterfeit models there would need to be large network and demand for the product.

 

Model railways sell through recognised lines and retailers, you are not going to find a £1 type shop stocking Dapol Terriers for example. This will make it harder for counterfeiters to enter the market selling whole models.

 

But when it comes to components - who knows, perhaps we already suffer from the problem - dodgy electrics in some Dapol models, ongoing sporadic split gears in Farish models - I cannot comment on OO gauge but I expect here too there might be some components that are less robust than they should be.  It is possible that in a bid to save money or cut corners some models have received parts that are not quite to specification or from an alternative source.

 

Of course this is just a 'maybe' not in anyway a confirmation or proof that we have suffered unknowingly at the hands of counterfeiters or dealers in dodgy components.

Hi,

Thankyou Gents for those thoughts.

Yes indeed there are similar problems in OO, particularly split gears - i've had to replace a few on several of my locos.

As to where products are sold i'm afraid the comment is very wrong.

There are now a great many other 'outlets' for model railway items such a car boot sales, market stalls and toy fairs.

Note that i'm NOT  suggesting for a moment that these dealers etc. are in any way 'iffey' - i'm just pointing out that the opening already exists.

And as I said in my original post, its clear that its not just mass market products that fall to the counterfeiters and the high pricing of some items does leave the opportunity for a faker to make a dam good markup even at a discount price comparable to what can be found on the genuine article.

Yes there are several reasons that it might not happen - but equally there are reasons, regretably, that it just might.

Looking at what has become available on the high street this year we are already part way there.

 

I still feel its a serious thought provoking subject. 

 

Regards

[woodenhead]

I suppose if you wanted to counterfeit you would target the collectors market for older models that can command a higher price and are simpler to copy - Hornby Dublo, Triang or Wrenn would spring to mind - no complicated electronic components, simple molded bodies and no manufacturer wanting to chase after you.

 

And these sell through the other markets you allude to.

[TheWeatheringMan]

As most models are now made in the countries where fake goods are often purported to come from I am not sure where else you could get cheaper versions from!!

Hi,

Back street, cheap and inferior production, copying another product and illegal importing is how counterfeit goods work and make it work.

Not difficult to see that undercutting the price of a genuine but China made product happens.

The BBC progam exposes this daily.

Regards

[Wheatley]

Is it worth the effort of wholesale counterfeiting ? I could understanding if the demand and mark-up was there but I can't imagine any model railway product having the same sort of street appeal as a pair of Louis Viton sunglasses, or a Rolex, or perfume in a fancy bottle.

 

Small scale counterfeiting already happens, apart from the Hachette coaches I'm sure there was a thread on here some time ago about a coach on Ebay which was most certainly not "Painted by Larry Goddard". I think ther worst we're likely to face in the short term is people cobbling one good (sic) loco out of three duff ones to sell on.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Small scale counterfeiting already happens, apart from the Hachette coaches I'm sure there was a thread on here some time ago about a coach on Ebay which was most certainly not "Painted by Larry Goddard".

By one of our favourite sellers no less. Not sure whether it was a deliberate case of counterfeiting or just his 'optimistic' listings where in his antique dealer speak he describes things as 'in the style of'

[PaulRhB]

LGB were hit with this after their collapse, Chinese companies we're knocking out cheap, a third the full price originals, copies of two wagons, a coach, their ICEtrain and the Harz 2-6-2 as a plastic rc model. It caused a lot of acrimony on the G forums with LGB diehards predicting doom for the hobby and even lead to such abuse that one forum folded and two shops were repeatedly reported to trading standards, nearly taking down one of them too. Result 9 years on? Well LGB came back, many of the cheapo locos failed, the wagons and coaches still are sporadically available providing a cheap entry but are widely accepted as not as good so those that can go for the real thing. In effect it's provided a cheap way in for those without large funds to spend what they can on LGB or Bachmann locos but cope with cheapo stock bashed or repainted from the cheap stock. These are people who wouldn't otherwise have afforded G so they are selling locos that wouldn't have been bought otherwise.

As said above if you provide fakes to the same quality then they wouldn't be any cheaper so I can't see that it will rob much market from the main makers, it might even widen their market as seen with LGB.

[brianthesnail96]

There are already copies of LGB G Scale bogie coaches and tank, flat and van wagons on the market, as well as a locomotive with different running gear for battery r/c instead of 2 rail. Not found a straight answer as to how the copies were made (reverse engineered from models, copied or "acquired" tooling etc- not that I've looked that closely myself) and it may have been entirely above board as LGB was going through a bit of upheaval at the time they appeared.

 

They also weren't (at least not originally) marketed or branded as "LGB" but under a couple of other brand names (most prominently Newquida), so not true fakes in the sense of the OP, but not a million miles off.  

 

Edit, beaten to it by Paul!

[TheSignalEngineer]

I've seen a couple of things on Ebay that look like poor resin copies of plastic kit sprues. Would hardly have thought it worth the effort of counterfeiting those.

[PaulRhB]

As Matt notes fakes can appear from original tooling with the way stuff is contracted out in China. Tamiya had to withdraw their paints when one factory provided samples but then added lead to production batches, you can bet that contaminated stock still at the factory was 'disposed of' by someone and ended up on sale somewhere through unknowing wholesalers who thought they got a bargain. So fakes can be from stuff originally ordered but refused by the customer too.

[Ryde-on-time]

LGB were hit with this after their collapse, Chinese companies we're knocking out cheap, a third the full price originals, copies of two wagons, a coach, their ICEtrain and the Harz 2-6-2 as a plastic rc model. It caused a lot of acrimony on the G forums with LGB diehards predicting doom for the hobby and even lead to such abuse that one forum folded and two shops were repeatedly reported to trading standards, nearly taking down one of them too. Result 9 years on? Well LGB came back, many of the cheapo locos failed, the wagons and coaches still are sporadically available providing a cheap entry but are widely accepted as not as good so those that can go for the real thing. In effect it's provided a cheap way in for those without large funds to spend what they can on LGB or Bachmann locos but cope with cheapo stock bashed or repainted from the cheap stock. These are people who wouldn't otherwise have afforded G so they are selling locos that wouldn't have been bought otherwise.

As said above if you provide fakes to the same quality then they wouldn't be any cheaper so I can't see that it will rob much market from the main makers, it might even widen their market as seen with LGB.

At least the LGB fakes are pretty easy to spot (a bit like the 00 gauge Hachette Mk1 coaches) - see the mistake here!!!:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Newqida-Train-757-5806-G-Gauge-Shall-Oil-Tanker-suit-LGB-Garden-Railway-/251647665068?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item3a975ea3ac

 

An LGB original can be seen here

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/G-gauge-GOOD-EXCELLENT-LGB-Shell-Tanker-NICE-DETAIL-/321531783083?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item4adcc9a7ab

[Bernard Lamb]

I don't see the market being large enough to justify setting up to produce fakes.

However a batch of West Countries coming direct from source and not via Hornby might be worth doing.

Any one got a contact for the factory?

I could take a punt on that myself.  

Bernard

[Mark Saunders]

Its like any goods if you find that there is sufficient demand for a product then either fakes or copies will appear!

 

The British 4mm scale restricts the market to the UK so may not be so appealing as HO goods to copy for all of Europe or North America!

 

Time will tell and we shall see what turns up?

 

Mark Saunders

[TheSignalEngineer]

At least the LGB fakes are pretty easy to spot (a bit like the 00 gauge Hachette Mk1 coaches) - see the mistake here!!!:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Newqida-Train-757-5806-G-Gauge-Shall-Oil-Tanker-suit-LGB-Garden-Railway-/251647665068?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item3a975ea3ac

 

An LGB original can be seen here

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/G-gauge-GOOD-EXCELLENT-LGB-Shell-Tanker-NICE-DETAIL-/321531783083?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item4adcc9a7ab

No good relying on the spell-checker when you choose the wrong word in the first place.

[sp1]

I might be wrong but weren't there copies made of the Triang 'Big Big Train'?

[TheWeatheringMan]

I might be wrong but weren't there copies made of the Triang 'Big Big Train'?

Hi,

Yes indeed there were.

Not to be confused however with the 'Novo' version of the 'Blue Flyer' - these were actually made from the original Triang tooling that was sold to a Russian company by the then owners of the tooling - if memory serves me correctly, still Lines Bros at that time. 

A copy was produced (I think in China - what a surprise) and as far as I can recall was in red plastic and carried 'Red Rocket' on the sides of the loco.

The grade of plastic used was very inferior and made converting one of these using the old RJH kit a very difficult proposition compared to doing so with a Triang or Novo item.

 

Regards

[Talltim]

Its like any goods if you find that there is sufficient demand for a product then either fakes or copies will appear!

 

The British 4mm scale restricts the market to the UK so may not be so appealing as HO goods to copy for all of Europe or North America!

 

Time will tell and we shall see what turns up?

 

Mark Saunders

North America maybe, but sure many European models are as country specific at UK ones?

[sp1]

Hi,

Yes indeed there were.

Not to be confused however with the 'Novo' version of the 'Blue Flyer' - these were actually made from the original Triang tooling that was sold to a Russian company by the then owners of the tooling - if memory serves me correctly, still Lines Bros at that time. 

A copy was produced (I think in China - what a surprise) and as far as I can recall was in red plastic and carried 'Red Rocket' on the sides of the loco.

The grade of plastic used was very inferior and made converting one of these using the old RJH kit a very difficult proposition compared to doing so with a Triang or Novo item.

 

Regards

Thanks

I knew I wasn't going mad.......

[plarailfan]

A few years ago, a very artistic friend of mine, produced a painting of a steam locomotive for a client who had a boxed, OO gauge, Wrenn, Prairie tank locomotive.

He liked it so much, it changed hands for quite serious money when it ended up in my artist friends collection.

Some time later, my friend sold his OO stuff, with a view to modelling O gauge.

The Wrenn Prairie was ideal for ebay, as it was said to have been produced as a one - off, test model that never made it into production.

The winning bidder received his model and contacted my friend, to say it was a fake - only one Wrenn Prairie was ever made - and he already owned it !! The two models were completely different to each other.

Maybe the gentleman is on here, I would love to know what enquiries he made subsequently, as, to the untrained eye, it really looked the part.

[Jonboy]

I have in the past bought plaster of Paris wall components off eBay and thought they looked like someone has taken a mold off a plastic part before, rather than a dedicated master. I would suspect a lot of smaller scenic parts would be a more tempting target than full loco's, especially considering the possibility of a wider market on EBay .

[M Graff]

Most pirate copys on the model market are resin cast automobiles!

I don't know how many that are being sold on ebay, but there are a lot!