RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted December 12, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 12, 2014 The other real possibility is goods that have failed at quality inspection or are surplus to an order going out through the back door, possibly even with genuine packaging (though that is very easy to fake). When I was in Kosova a local computer shop who had a very good reputation acquired some "genuine" toner cartridges manufactured in China for one of the really big manufacturers. It turned out that the packaging was fake but the cartridges were genuine - but only a third full. In the model railway context I can see this being mouldings that were rejected as slightly substandard being acquired and assembled by a local entrepreneur, packaged in fake packaging and offered on e-bay or similar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I've had my etched common crossing parts and tram track ripped off by copy cats several times now. By folk in the UK, Germany and Italy. Apparently they think that as I'm primarily US based, I won't notice. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 There was an instance reported on here of resin models of stone walls being sold on eBay. They looked remarkably like the Skaledale version. There is no doubt that cottage industry could do something as simple as this and perhaps get away with it. In that case they were reported to Hornby for investigation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted December 12, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 12, 2014 A friend of mine had some of her clothing designs ripped off recently. In that particular case a well-worded legal communication to the person concerned did the trick and they disappeared from the market this time. Turned out to be the new girl friend of her ex. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 In a similar vein, but not fakes per se, I found some nice N-scale containers from a new manufacturer at my local hobby store. This is the manufacturer:http://czrolland.en.made-in-china.com/ and their product line is curious, to say the least. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted December 12, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 12, 2014 Copies of diecast models have been made for years, even copies of Matchbox models were produced in the 50's, mind you they were so bad that their providence was not in any doubt. I can think of another current diecast manufacturer whose products are copied from another manufacturer but in a different scale, you can tell because all the faults and inaccuracies of the copied model are repeated. The same is happening with the 'Great British Locomotive' series of static models and in the same scale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nedrahn Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I've seen plastic battery operated US (toy) diesels that look like shoddy rip-offs of HO electric models, so perhaps we might see something similar in OO? However, I can't imagine there being much chance of anyone faking relatively complex ready to run locos. The only exception might be high end models like the Golden Age locos, attempting to pass them off as the real thing (and failing big time, I would guess). Possibly we might see some rip-offs of the rarer Dublo and Wrenn locos, but I doubt it. Repaints being passed off as the real thing is more likely. In the camera collecting world, no-one (to my knowledge) is churning out new rip-offs of screw fit Leicas, but there's a back street industry in converting Feds and Zorkis into 'real' Leicas. Regarding the Great British Locomotives range, does anyone know how they got hold of the moulds? The old ones I can understand, but the K3, T9 and Director? Looking at the first post here, if anyone is producing Star Wars items, I'd like to put in an order for a life-sized Imperial class Star Destroyer with working hyperdrive and weapons. I won't inform Kuat Drive Yards if you won't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted December 12, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 12, 2014 The GBL series are produced from their own moulds from scans of the model they are copying, which is quite legal. However if they made a mould directly from the model that would be illegal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 The GBL series are produced from their own moulds from scans of the model they are copying, which is quite legal. However if they made a mould directly from the model that would be illegal. That does not make sense to me, what part of the law does this fall in, whether you make a mould directly or by scanning, the intent and result is the same, only the technology used to achieve it is changed. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 The primary problem in OO of long standing is with those who cobble together from (usually mostly s/h) bits and pieces 'reconditioned/re-'orginalised' versions of whatever is attracting decent s/h prices, and attempting to secure mint/vgc prices on the far from ex-factory condition items resulting. In a different field, I had to go into a manufacturing outfit producing an alleged 'knock-off/rip-off/incorrectly branded copy' that the original manufacturer was very upset about. It proved to be completely legit, and they were open and up front about their methods, and could show good evidence that they shipped it all under their own brand, clearly marked on components and packaging. And they gave me a hint where to look for the real trouble. The original manufacturer's franchised dealer network, busily purchasing the copy, and repacking it as the original manufacturer's part, which they then sold for the much higher price. Ho, ho, ho... That does not make sense to me, what part of the law does this fall in, whether you make a mould directly or by scanning, the intent and result is the same, only the technology used to achieve it is changed... Start from the position that anyone can make a model of a physical object and offer it for sale under their own branding as a commercial product. (GBL's product is a 1:1 model of a model in effect, and they don't attempt to advertise it as being made by another established brand.) Where do you draw the line? Law is developed reactively in response to events, and it may in time be recognised that with the falling cost and rising capability of scanning tech, it needs to be classed as a non-contact equivalent to taking a direct physical impression such as a cast. (And can it be proved that GBL are scanning? Could all be done with conventional measuring equipment, and then tooled up from there. Unlikely that a law will ever be enacted to prevent that.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted December 13, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2014 I have been thinking about this, a fake 00 model, is still a 00 model. It might not be as good as one from the leading manufacturers but is better than one still in the pipe line as so many seem to be now. Promises and reality can be two different things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leavesontheline Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 You just need to look at eBay to see numerous 'models' (I use the term loosely!) being passed off as something they are not! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 One risk I've read of in another industry is that the subcontracted manufacturer runs off some extra copies using the design and tooling they have been provided with to produce the genuine model legitimately. These "copies" would presumably be identical to the original in all respects but could be sold on the grey market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium finelines Posted December 13, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2014 There has long been a story, apocryphal I believe, that every commissioned model was over run and put in a warehouse somewhere in China. If this was true, how were they going to get it to market? Secondly, why did the stash not appear when Sanda Kan went under? Roger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 As long as the technology exists, people will always try to copy something. The Hachette and GBL "specials" are just the latest in a long line. Copying is what contributed to the end of Kemilway, and one of two small parts suppliers have been known to copy bits of models. I remember seeing cab front castings for the Blue Pullman years ago which even reproduced the Kitmaster part number and emblem inside. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted December 13, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2014 The other real possibility is goods that have failed at quality inspection or are surplus to an order going out through the back door, possibly even with genuine packaging (though that is very easy to fake). When I was in Kosova a local computer shop who had a very good reputation acquired some "genuine" toner cartridges manufactured in China for one of the really big manufacturers. It turned out that the packaging was fake but the cartridges were genuine - but only a third full. Yes but. Selling part full cartridges is what almost all printer manufacturers do. They supply the printers with 'starter' cartridges that aren't full, so that within a short period of time, the purchaser needs to go out and buy a 'full' cartridge. As is easily proven by the price of these ones, this is where printer manufacturers make their money. So probably these cartridges acquired by that IT shop, were surplus 'starter' cartridge, shoved in fake boxes. A friend reported that these 'starter' cartridges, are just as applicable to the large industrial grade printers, that corporates might use for printing bills & the like, as consumer grade devices. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Pretty much everything can be faked, and its not just high end stuff like LV handbags, but fake batteries, razors, bars of soap and even washing powder is being seized all the time, and the big manufacturers of those things are investing heavily to try and stop it, or at least make it easy for customer and consumer to tell the difference before they buy it - the scale ranges from things made in back yards, to authentic sub-assemblies being bought from the same sub-supplier. I'm sure the low end copying of parts in resin has been going a long time - when I do my resin demo I'm often asked if it would be possible to copy....? and a lot of the time the answer is 'in purely technical terms yes, but...' it has to be said after the cost of the mould and the minimum quantity of resin has been bought and the potential forger has learnt how to do it then any cost advantage will have gone away, and you still have the lost of fidelity of a second generation copy, along with (at least in some cases) a loss of the functional qualities that the original polystyrene injection moulding has. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 There has long been a story, apocryphal I believe, that every commissioned model was over run and put in a warehouse somewhere in China. If this was true, how were they going to get it to market? Models of the Strategic Reserve! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfsboy Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 My figures have been ripped off .Especially my 43rd scale Enzo Ferrari and Gendarmes .The Fnench are the worst possibly because of the subjects .very annoying . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 And to tax the grey cells, is a repainted model such as a Trix Twin Scotsman sold as an original, in reality a fake? If advertised as 'original condition' of course it is a fake, specifically in respect of the paint job which is not 'original' - a repaint is not and cannot ever be the paint job it left the factory with. And this doesn't change if the repaint was technically superior to the original paint job, so far as the claim of 'original condition' is concerned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOARD OF TRADE Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 I buy G scale stuff for my grandchildren. Now I wouldn't buy a Starter Set unless it was Proper LGB one(I know they are now produced in China I believe) nor would I buy any Loco;Steam Diesel or Electric outline loco unless it was either Piko or LGB and the same goes for the track. However there is no way I am going to pay £200 circa or even more for a twin bogie 8 wheel coach from LGB or Piko .I am perfectly content to buy the Newquida coaches or any of the other names they are produced under for circa £40 They are not "fakes" as such, simply similar build/outline generic type copies of the more expensive types at a more realistic/reasonable price,look perfectly acceptable and perform perfectly adequately. There will always come a price so high that it becomes a disincentive to the potential purchaser to buy the genuine article and worthwhile for an enterprising manufacturer to make a generic type "copy" and of course some will be tempted to make fake authentic looking copies of genuine classes/types etc.. It's the way of the world whether we like it or not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steve Purves Posted December 16, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 16, 2014 There is a seller on Ebay selling new Farish N gauge models direct from China. I believe a few have been bought by people on another forum and all is well. Some are even from batches not yet released yet... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesperus Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 I saw a toy on ebay that was an 0 scale 'model' of GWR 101 and was fairly obviously scanned from a Hornby model and molded at twice life size. I was quite tempted as it was really cheap but I wasn't sure how close to any known scale it would actually be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 I think we could be a bit off topic here. I think FAKE only applies if the model is deceitfully mis-labelled as being made legitimately by the original/desirable supplier, when it isn't. If it is a new fully independently designed and created model of a similar prototype, and labelled as such, it's its own original. That doesn't matter if it was not made by moulding or otherwise piggybacking off copyright work by another. The case where an existing model is used to create a mould, or another process that relies on the original's cosmetic work to succeed, then it is a copyright infringement, no matter how it is labelled. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted December 21, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 21, 2014 Different states/nations have different copyright laws. IIRC in the UK there has to be a proven 'Attempt to deceive' such as putting a Gucci label on your own products. However it is perfectly legal to copy something as long as it is not 100% identical and can be easily distinguished from the real thing. That is why companies such as GBL are able to operate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.