Hornby 2015 Announcements now made

[Multiple identity account]

It seems to me that they will continue to hang on to the licence even if they don't produce anything, to prevent another manufacturer (no names!) getting hold of it.

I highly doubt that's the way things work? Is it? AFAIK whomsoever gives companies a license has the authority to allow any company to produce models. Hornby, Bachmann and Tomy/Tomytec all have a license to produce TTTE products.

 

Well if my initial thinking is incorrect then I still find it hard to believe that Hornby will hold a license just to stop another manufacturer from producing it. I just find it to be an attempt to bash Hornby as I have seen a few posts of yours also on facebook having a go at them.

 

Pity that people love complaining. I feel sad really.

 

Cheers!

AJA

 

PS: Someone please explain the licensing thing to me. 

[Bernard Lamb]

Well if my initial thinking is incorrect then I still find it hard to believe that Hornby will hold a license just to stop another manufacturer from producing it.

The big supermarket companies have been known to purchase sights and leave them undeveloped just to stop the opposition getting hold of them. The sums involved would be greater than the annual turnover of Hornby let alone the cost of a license.

Bernard

[ifitlooksright]

Would that sort of thing have been common on a maroon liveried mk1 anyway? Or is it modelled in a "preserved" state?

 

It would seem more accurate (appropriate or otherwise) on a blue/ grey example...

Thats what I said. At least one green or blue/grey would have been more useful ? 

[7013]

Simon Kohler

[Andy W]

I highly doubt that's the way things work? Is it? AFAIK whomsoever gives companies a license has the authority to allow any company to produce models. Hornby, Bachmann and Tomy/Tomytec all have a license to produce TTTE products.

 

Well if my initial thinking is incorrect then I still find it hard to believe that Hornby will hold a license just to stop another manufacturer from producing it. I just find it to be an attempt to bash Hornby as I have seen a few posts of yours also on facebook having a go at them.

 

Pity that people love complaining. I feel sad really.

 

Cheers!

AJA

 

PS: Someone please explain the licensing thing to me. 

OK. Lets try. HIT Entertainment currently own the copyright in anything related to Thomas. They don't actually produce anything themselves but make their money from licence fees.

Bachmann hold a licence to sell HO (nominal) Thomas & Friends in North America. Bachmann of course has been selling "normal" model railways in the USA for many years, and like Bachmann Europe is owned by Kader Industries, who actually make the models, which is why some of the items seem to come from Bachmann UK tooling, though there may well be duplicate tools. Any Bachmann Thomas models in the UK will have been imported directly from the US either by private individuals or dealers, not through Bachmann Europe.

Hornby hold a similar licence to sell OO models in Europe but doesn't seem to be using it at present.

Tomy have/had licences to sell Thomas electric trains in the Japanese market and push-along type toys just about everywhere. Some of their range seems to have passed to Fisher Price who presumably now have an appropriate licence. Tomy also sell Thomas videos.

 

Preserved railways who stage Thomas weekends also need a licence from HIT, with the only exception being the Talyllyn, who were given a perpetual licence by the Rev Awdry (a TRPS member from the earliest days) who created the whole Thomas genre.

 

Now there is a 12" to 1ft large blue engine carrying the name Gordon that has no licence from HIT. It's currently on the Severn Valley at Highley, but presumably HIT have balked at tackling its owners, the British Army.

[Andy Y]

Just a minor but significantcorrection to the above post. Bachmann Industries hold the licence for North America and can supply the rest of the world for HO products under the Thomas licence inc Europe but excluding UK and the ROI. Bachmann Industries hold a separate licence to see G-scale Thomas worldwide including the UK and ROI via Bachmann Europe Plc. Bachmann Europe are not involved in the supply, marketing or servicing of any HO Thomas products.

 

Hornby have been the incumbent licence holder for OO Thomas in UK and ROI and could supply to rest of world. My understanding is that it is likely there will be a continuation of the licence but I could foresee that there could be a need for variations from old products to reflect current trademarked representations if the licensor had the opportunity to do so.

[bennyboy]

Indeed.

 

Although I would have been far more interested if Hornby had announced the 1966 Mk2 (Manchester Pullman) versions instead.

 

Or how about if they released their MK3 in the Manchester Pullman livery like Lima did years ago? 

[phil-b259]

The big supermarket companies have been known to purchase sights and leave them undeveloped just to stop the opposition getting hold of them. The sums involved would be greater than the annual turnover of Hornby let alone the cost of a license.

Bernard

 

Indeed - Tesco being one of the biggest culprits sitting on huge amounts of real estate simply to prevent their competitors getting hold of it.

 

However in the case of TTE the owners of the brand need continued exposure to ensure the brand doesn't stagnate - producing merchandise being an important part of the mix. Thus were Hornby to keep the licence yet plan to produce nothing for the duration of said licence, then the owners of the TTE brand would in all likelihood take action to get it back from Hornby.

[Ian J.]

I'm late to the party! Nice to see the S15 and a re-release for the 2P in BR Lined Black. Could have done with a new number release of the S&DJR three carriage coach pack though. But hey ho.

[298]

Would that sort of thing have been common on a maroon liveried mk1 anyway? Or is it modelled in a "preserved" state?

 

It would seem more accurate (appropriate or otherwise) on a blue/ grey example...

Regardless of the content, it seems they've found a way to produce lots of colours and weather it for free- even if it is a decal instead of tampo printed on, I'm surprised it isn't being sold at a premium, unless Hatchette killed the market for Maroon Mk1 TSO coaches and they have loads left over.

 

And since most preserved centres ban graffiti on stored stock, perhaps 2016 will see another coach but with the bottom half crudely painted out....

[Anglian]

I noted with interest that one of the Adams codes is listed as LSWR. If correct we get two BR versions and hopefully an accurate LSWR pale olive version but no SR version, at least not for now. The S15 is welcome. I still think we'll see them tackle another one or two larger SR tank engines over the next few years since the other three of the big four have them. A G16 perhaps or even a Z class. I am delighted though to see the Adams radial and because of this announcement I decided not to buy a second LSWR M7 even if I end up buying an Adams from A N Other.

 

I was hoping for a revised Terrier up to M7 standards but there is always next year.

 

I remain very interested in further announcements regarding N gauge. I would dearly love to see Arnold/Hornby put the cat amongst the pidgeons with a beautifully rendered N gauge steam engine with really good looking valve gear to up the ante.

[Legend]

No, it's because Pullmans sell and sell and sell and they have since the days of the Tri-ang shorty ones. We're back to the subject of precedent again. The same reason there's another version of Flying Scotsman. When you plan the range you start with Flying Scotsman, A4s and Pullmans, then you add the optional stuff.

Disagree. I get Railroad Pullmans who sell to people because they look nice, all these little table lamps etc. Thats how Santa delivered two Triang Pullmans to me in 1965.But full blown £45+ Pullmans can only sell to the enthusiast market. That market has got to have already been saturated by first the Wooden Pullman range and then the steel range. And just remembered the 6 wheelers. Hence discounted Pullmans.And if it always sells why not just reintroduce the old ones. Retooling a new range seems an extravagance to me , diverting resources from a Silver Jubilee set or a Coronation, or GWR top lights, come to that. Unless the original Pullman tooling is not available to them

[Legend]

The big supermarket companies have been known to purchase sights and leave them undeveloped just to stop the opposition getting hold of them. The sums involved would be greater than the annual turnover of Hornby let alone the cost of a license.Bernard

And, of course, Bachmann already have a range that sells elsewhere

[84A]

Personally, my believe overall is that the annoucement from Hornby is quite poor in content. My reasoning behind this can be summed up as follows...

 

The King, as is already known, has been annouced elsewhere and comes with a hefty price tag. The S15 bears obvious similarities to the Arthur's, and do they really sell that well? The Radial again has not only been annouced elsewhere, but has already been done (by OO works), however I can see the appeal and this model selling well. Similarly, I believe the J50 is a needed model in the market. However, I don't think anyone can argue that the biggest sellers from Hornby this year have been models for which people have been most critical about - namely the design-clever 71000 and P2. I purchased a model of 71000 as part of a train pack for just under £80 from a well known retailer on this site earlier this year, and got a model of the full-fat P2 for circa £100. It is therefore strange to find no new annoucements coming from the RR (or design-clever) stable of similar appeal. There are plenty of obscure locomotives out there that Hornby could have attacked, and its surely known to Hornby by now that obscure sells. Not only are both of these locos obscure, but you only need to look at the 31-460 from Bachmann for evidence. On this basis, are people really going to pay £120 and £80 respectively for these two tank engines? The Adams certainly has appeal, but i've bought a Mikado this year for under £100, so i'll think i'll pass - question is, will others?

 

The Silver Jubilee A4 announcement is a bit of a joke really. When I first saw the picture and the price, my initial thought was 'Yes, Hornby's finally produced some scale coaches', but then I actually clicked on the item and realised that it was just another pack of A4's, as the market is obviously short of them. I already have a model of Quicksliver with the original tender/drawbar connection, and don't really need another three in the same colour. Also, the price puts them at circa £150 each - how many people bought the limited edition model of Silver Link recently I wonder? Coupled with the RR pack released recently, I can't see these locos selling that well to be honest.

 

The coaches are arguably the biggest let down in the annoucement. Just how many Airfix non-corridor LMS coaches to people see lying around at swapmeets? These coaches are of reasonable quality for their age - again, are people really going to pay £40 for them? Also, do we really need more Pullmans? Again, more coaches that can be seen languishing in shop windows and on swapmeet tables for circa £20 that can't be shifted - I can't see these selling well at £50 a time (well only to a certain Mr Wright maybe?).

 

Wagons? What wagons? Admittedly, the LMS horsebox looks nice and i'll be looking at one, but otherwise its fairly quiet on the wagon front so not much to say really.

 

Not much to talk about on the diesel/modern image front, and its not my area so I wont say a great deal.

 

Hornby again seem to be missing two vital markets in my opinion. Earlier in the year, they advertised for a researcher - was this position ever filled? First off, ask yourself how much open coaching stock has/is being used around the country, and then ask yourself how many open coaches have Hornby ever modelled? I think i'm right in saying you can count them on one hand. The second market (a huge market) which Hornby started to make inroads into last year and then stopped is the industrial market. Last week, I saw a 0-4-0 Peckett white metal kit sell for £120 on eBay. It is my belief that Hornby could easily look towards modelling an aesthetically pleasing, robust as well as detailed 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 shunter that would sell really well. Many locos travelled far and wide around the country, so they aren't constrained as much by region or timeframe compared to the models announced. Furthermore, the lower price tag would encourage more sales, as well as inviting people to look at rolling stock within the Hornby range to accomapny such a loco.

 

My belief is that a lot has been made recently over price increases to models. Personally, I believe that this has been due in part to poor model selection over the last few years in certain cases. I genuinely cannot understand for the life of me why Hornby hasn't exploited one of the above - both are fairly substantial markets with plenty of sales and thus incoming revenue.

[trevor7598]

A good selection from Hornby, LMS horsebox will be a must for me, and a 700.

A plea for future consideration would be a Maunsell restaurant car, There has not been a 'green' catering vehicle [rtr]

of any kind for many years. The last one I can remember was the ex mainline example,released by Replica

in green.

Then there is always room for a Tavern car pair !!.

[Black 5 Bear]

Good to see the Black 5 is back in late BR livery, it would have been even better news had we had a release of MK 1 Buffet and Restaurant Cars in maroon livery. Never mind maybe 2016.....

[Ozexpatriate]

The second market (a huge market) which Hornby started to make inroads into last year and then stopped is the industrial market. Last week, I saw a 0-4-0 Peckett white metal kit sell for £120 on eBay. It is my belief that Hornby could easily look towards modelling an aesthetically pleasing, robust as well as detailed 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 shunter that would sell really well. Many locos travelled far and wide around the country, so they aren't constrained as much by region or timeframe compared to the models announced.

I've been a strong proponent of an 'accurate' 0-4-0ST for a long time. (The ex-Swansea Harbour Trust GWR Pecketts happen to be my favourite.)  I think a representative (but still accurate to a prototype) 0-4-0ST would be a winner and sell well.

 

However, they don't poll very well - partly because there are so many industrial locomotives, though with the changes made to the poll this year to accommodate industrial locomotives separately they're starting to show. It's worth noting that "Industrial 0-4-0ST – Outside Cylinders" made the top 20 in the 00 most wanted list with 291 votes.

 

With four of the top twenty ahead of them announced this year, (see below) their turn will come.

GWR Steam Railmotor (preserved at GWS 2011)

LSWR/SR S15 4-6-0 (30496-30515, 30823-30847)

LSWR 0415 Adams Radial 4-4-2T (30582-30584)

GWR Churchward 47xx 2-8-0 (4700-4708)

 

Just because Hornby didn't announce an 0-4-0ST this year doesn't mean their slate of 2015/16 products are bad choices.

[Mallard60022]

. The S15 bears obvious similarities to the Arthur's, and do they really sell that well? T

 

Well, we shall see. My purchases alone could well pay for some of the effort made to produce the little beauties.

What's good about the S15 is that it will be a popular layout loco for SR modellers, whereas something like the Adams is quite 'niche' and I agree, a rather unfortunate duplication, as is the King.

P

[Downer]

The Hattons discount on the new items (at least on the J50, S15 and ex-LMS non-ganwayed coaches) seems to be 7.4%.  This seems lower than it has been in previous years, or am I imagining that?

[The Stationmaster]

Referring to Sanda Kan or Simon Kohler?

 

If it's Sanda Kan - I'm happy Hornby left them and can have their models produced elsewhere without using Sanda Kan (a company/factory) owned by Bachmann.

 

If it's Simon Kohler - I'm sad because he is missing out on Hornby's turning point but still lucky to be a guide for them Simon surely is a guiding light in the darkness and Hornby are lucky to still have him extend a helping hand.

 

Cheers!!

AJA

Point of pedantry - the Sanda Kan factory was (eventually) owned by Kader.  Kader also own Bachmann (both the USA version and the Europe version).  I don't know about the USA version but the Europe version bids for factory development and production slots as an internal customer of the factory; Hornby was an external customer (one of a large number, at one time).  As a matter of reality it was probably more fortunate for Hornby than it was unfortunate that Kader took over Sanda Kan after the money men had been having their wrecking spree because otherwise Hornby could well have been left completely without a supplier.

[Ozexpatriate]

Why are we having another range of Pullmans? Why will people buy these? Is it that the tooling for the old range is no longer available and they've taken opportunity to give us something different?

No, it's because Pullmans sell and sell and sell and they have since the days of the Tri-ang shorty ones. We're back to the subject of precedent again. The same reason there's another version of Flying Scotsman. When you plan the range you start with Flying Scotsman, A4s and Pullmans, then you add the optional stuff.

Disagree. I get Railroad Pullmans who sell to people because they look nice, all these little table lamps etc. Thats how Santa delivered two Triang Pullmans to me in 1965.But full blown £45+ Pullmans can only sell to the enthusiast market. That market has got to have already been saturated by first the Wooden Pullman range and then the steel range. And just remembered the 6 wheelers. Hence discounted Pullmans.And if it always sells why not just reintroduce the old ones. Retooling a new range seems an extravagance to me , diverting resources from a Silver Jubilee set or a Coronation, or GWR top lights, come to that. Unless the original Pullman tooling is not available to them

I think Chris is absolutely right that Pullmans clearly are a consistent seller for Hornby. They also regularly get double duty in 'prestige' train sets and train packs and get extra sales mileage there.

 

You  might be onto something with the notion that the prior Pullman tooling is no longer available/serviceable. I believe all the previous high-specification Pullmans were from Kader Manfacturing Services / Sanda Kan.

 

Having said that, would I rather see Sliver Jubilee, Coronation or GWR toplight stock consuming this production slot over east-coast Pullmans? Certainly!

[olivegreen]

 The S15 bears obvious similarities to the Arthur's,….

Not to the Southern Railway follower, it doesn't!  (But I admit, to the mass market, there is little obvious difference).

[The Stationmaster]

The Hattons discount on the new items (at least on the J50, S15 and ex-LMS non-ganwayed coaches) seems to be 7.4%.  This seems lower than it has been in previous years, or am I imagining that?

I'm beginning to wonder how many times I need to repeat this and in how many threads over what period (it's now almost a year).  Hornby's trade discount was reduced to 10% from 01 January 2014, they also offer a tiny further discount for payment within a certain time.  Out of that 10% a retailer has to find his business running costs, premises rental or mortgage (but great if completely owns the freehold), Business Rates, heating, lighting, staff wages and enough for his own supper and mortgage etc.

 

So if Hattons are giving such a generous discount they are either business incompetents (which they definitely do not appear to be) or they are hopeful that continued high volume from highly competitive pricing will provide sufficient gross cash returns.  Now if you look at Hattons prices at that rate of discount and their rates of discount in the past you can quickly work out that in reality they were very often only making a few £s on each model sold - they would seem to have long got their income from very efficient operation of their business allowing such low margins and, more than anything else, selling massive volume to keep the cash income up.

 

It really is that simple and it really is very difficult to see how any retailers actually manage to offer a discount on Hornby products if they intend to stay in business over the long term - Hattons solution is, it would appear, to continue aiming for high volume and wafer thin margins.

[autocoach]

Very pleased at the news of the S15 but as I understand it Hornby are only producing the Maunsell version not the original Urie locomotive. To produce the Urie version it will still be necessary to build a kit.

And will the Maunsell version have snifter valves as did the pre-1948 T9's?

[Focalplane]

I am almost reluctant to join this debate as I am underwhelmed by the new models.  But this is because they don't fit my remit (Midlands LM® and GWR).  The possible exception is the Black 5 but I would probably go with a white metal/brass kit anyway.  And this is not a particularly accurate model as the various available upgrading kits testify.

 

If I was a Southern or Eastern steam modeler I can imagine I would be excited.  Horses for courses.

 

I really like some of the fine scale Hornby offerings - streamlined Princess Coronation, rebuilt Patriot.  But that's about it.