Mid-Cornwall Lines - 1950s Western Region in 00

[St Enodoc]

5 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

Have you seen this ongoing 2021 build?  Might be of interest.

 

 

Yes, I'm following that too. Both that and Al's model seem to have the later etched chassis, so I've got to do a bit of compare-and-contrast.

[St Enodoc]

On 18/03/2024 at 17:06, St Enodoc said:

All that's left are the bogie end steps, which were missing from my package. I've emailed Rails to ask whether they can send me a set.

I've had a response from Rails saying that the steps were only fitted after the loco was converted to electric. The Rails loco manual doesn't actually say this, and Robertson's book is slightly ambiguous, but I'm happy to accept it.

 

They also suggested that I should have used their own-brand RoS218.4.2 decoder (which appear to be a rebranded DCC Concepts Zen Black DCD-ZN218.6) but still haven't confirmed what the decoder settings should be to activate all the lighting functions. I'm still pursuing this with them.

[St Enodoc]

I made some progress with 2182 today.

 

I decided to start, in the traditional way, with the chassis.

 

Here are all the parts. Trust me, there are two coupling rods. I don't know where the other one got to in this photo.

 

It has traditional thick frames joined by three screw-type spacers, the outer two of which are used to secure the body and chassis together with 8BA screws and nuts. Personally, I don't think you need axle bushes on thick frames but as the holes are already too big for Romford axles they'll have to go in.

 

West Coast Kit Centre used to supply, at extra cost, lathe-turned Romford drivers, which are what you see here. I've marked them so that I can reassemble them exactly as supplied. The dots indicate which axle they are, counting from the front of the loco, and by keeping the insulated wheels on the right and leaving the plain wheels on the axles, I can maintain the settings quite easily.

 

I think the motor is a DS10 - any other ideas? I'll have to think carefully about how to mount this and the gearbox, to ensure among other things that the lower brush terminal doesn't touch the frames, which wouldn't do the decoder much good later. More thought, trial and error to come here.

 

I'd like to say that I reamed out all the holes but I didn't - I haven't got any reamers and for some reason my set of taper broaches are all just too small for this job. In any case, the broaches scare me because it's far to easy to take off too much metal without realising. So, back to the traditional ways again and I used small files to bore out the holes.

 

Once the frame holes were the right size, I pressed the bushes in and soldered them to the frames. Once everything had cooled down, I opened up the axle holes to get a nice running fit for the axles. After I'd fitted the axles and wheels, I opened up the holes for the crankpins, which were much too small as supplied for the Romford crankpins.

 

Anyway, we got there and I've got a free-running basic chassis - all a trial fit at this stage until I've sorted out the motor/gearbox configuration. This view is from the bunker end looking from the right-hand side. Tell me if I've got anything in the wrong place please!

 

I"m quite please with this afternoon's work. It was a bit slow at first but once it all came back to me everything went together well - so far...

Edited March 20 by St Enodoc
speling

[Siberian Snooper]

9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Thanks. The kit came from the erstwhile West Coast Kit Centre (Alan Bunn) and has an unlabelled motor and gearbox. The motor is a cuboid open frame unit 25mm long x 15mm high x 10mm wide. I'd like to use these if I can, rather than shell out for new ones. I'll see whether that will fit vertically.

 

In the meantime, If you wouldn't mind checking the provenance of your motor/gearbox please that would be very helpful.

 

I can do that, but it will be on Monday, as I'm off to a couple of gigs and a couple of nights in the Smoke. I forgot last night, as I got accosted on arrival at the club last night to sort out electrical faults on a couple of layouts.

 

[Siberian Snooper]

After soldering connecting wires to the motor and testing that all was good, I wrapped insulation tape around the end with the terminals to ensure that they wouldn't come into contact with the firebox.

 

 

[innocentman]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

 

I think the motor is a DS10 - any other ideas? 

That looks like a DS10 to me. Fitted many into bogie trams over the years.

[5BarVT]

10 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

They also suggested that I should have used their own-brand RoS218.4.2 decoder (which appear to be a rebranded DCC Concepts Zen Black DCD-ZN218.6) but still haven't confirmed what the decoder settings should be to activate all the lighting functions. I'm still pursuing this with them.

There is a ZN218.6 and a ZN218.4.2 and they are not the same (to do with whether the extra 2 outputs are logic level or not (‘12V’?). So I would imagine that the RoS is similar.  I haven’t managed to get all the lights to work on my SPCs and I suspect this might be something to do with it.

Paul.

[St Enodoc]

Other things to do today, so I couldn't spend much time on 2182. However, I did mock up the drive arrangements, with the gear on either the centre or rear axle. The front axle isn't practicable because of the frame spacer (I also checked whether I could mount the whole lot upside down but the gearbox projected below the wheels).

 

Here's the centre axle arrangement:

 

 

 

...and here's the rear axle arrangement:

 

 

 

In each case there is a fair bit of visual intrusion both under the boiler and in the cab (ignore the motor shaft extensions - I'll trim those back as far as possible at both ends). The question is, which is the least worst option?

 

What does the team think?

[Michael Edge]

I would go with the trailing axle option.

[St Enodoc]

18 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

I would go with the trailing axle option.

Thanks Mike. I was hoping you would comment (actually, the best option would be for you to donate Cwmafon's 2156 to a worthy cause...).

[ian]

At least in the cab you could disguise the intrusion with suitably placed loco crew.

[Michael Edge]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Thanks Mike. I was hoping you would comment (actually, the best option would be for you to donate Cwmafon's 2156 to a worthy cause...).

No chance, get on with building it! Nice to see you doing some proper modelling again.....

[Keith Turbutt]

Ditch the motor and gearbox. Suggest you consider a two stage gearbox, with a coreless motor, which could work on the rear axle at a lower level and be less intrusive in the cab. Of course this would mean more expense.

 

High Level models do a range of motors/gearboxes. Also Branchlines.

 

 

[Coach bogie]

As Keith says, High Level produce a gear box specifically for the GWR pannier tank driving the year axle and raising the motor enough to fit in the firebox completely hidden.

 

Explode diagram here on page 10 to show it would fit.

 

https://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/_files/ugd/27e471_43d18fb06c284462a85d975ac0064baa.pdf

 

Mike Wiltshire

[St Enodoc]

11 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

No chance, get on with building it! Nice to see you doing some proper modelling again.....

Ah well. As my dear old mum used to say "If you don't ask, you won't get" - and, as I learned quickly, in most cases "even if you do ask, you still won't get"...

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, Keith Turbutt said:

Ditch the motor and gearbox. Suggest you consider a two stage gearbox, with a coreless motor, which could work on the rear axle at a lower level and be less intrusive in the cab. Of course this would mean more expense.

 

High Level models do a range of motors/gearboxes. Also Branchlines.

 

 

That's fair comment but, for reasons that I can't even work out myself, I want to build this, as far as possible, "as bought" 30 years ago. Anyway, it won't be the only loco I have with parts of the drive train showing.

 

43 minutes ago, Coach bogie said:

As Keith says, High Level produce a gear box specifically for the GWR pannier tank driving the year axle and raising the motor enough to fit in the firebox completely hidden.

 

Explode diagram here on page 10 to show it would fit.

 

https://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/_files/ugd/27e471_43d18fb06c284462a85d975ac0064baa.pdf

 

Mike Wiltshire

That link is for the 5700/8750. HL don't list a set-up specifically for the 2021 (in fact, the 5700/8750 is the only pannier that they do show).

[Coach bogie]

The HL 57xx fits. I also used it in a Buffalo and a 54xx  built for a friend.

 

My 2021 is as the original kit as it has the solid brass chassis with limited options for motor and gears available at the time.

[Coach bogie]

If you are using the DS10, I recommend adding an extra bearing o  the end of the shaft. It stops the bearing in the motor wearing at the worm end, an issue that came up in the past resulting in a new motor required. Some of the fold up gearboxes had a plate with a bearing included to just this. I have some in smaller locos and they are as good as new.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, Coach bogie said:

If you are using the DS10, I recommend adding an extra bearing o  the end of the shaft. It stops the bearing in the motor wearing at the worm end, an issue that came up in the past resulting in a new motor required. Some of the fold up gearboxes had a plate with a bearing included to just this. I have some in smaller locos and they are as good as new.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Mike, where would I get parts to do that? There's no bearing on the gearbox I have.

[Coach bogie]

There were a few different ones about, The Sharman one has the extra support plate seen top right and came with sufficient bearings. Gibson pack 4M57 has 1.5mm bearings to suit.

 

You can make your own. The only other images I have here is the SEF Metro tank.. When all was running sweet, I tack soldered the gearbox to the frames so it would not move and then made an additional support from scrap brass and a piece of copper tube with a 1.5mm bore, soldered between the frames. The weakness with the DS10 was the bearing at the worm end. Vibration of the shaft would work the bearing loose sufficient for the worm to rise and drop out of mesch or gear lock. If you hold the shaft on a DS10 you can flex it as it is only 1.5 diameter. It took a while to figure out the cause. Picking up the Sharman box it was eureka moment.

 

Saying that, with the extra support the DS10 has proved reliable on a number of small engines with some of mine now over forty years old and still running fine.  I had a friend who put one in a K's LMS Garratt and wondered why the kept failing.

 

My father and I (and many others) had a lot of issues with the DS10. There were no further problems with the added support or if using the Sharman type gearbox.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Coach bogie said:

There were a few different ones about, The Sharman one has the extra support plate seen top right and came with sufficient bearings. Gibson pack 4M57 has 1.5mm bearings to suit.

 

You can make your own. The only other images I have here is the SEF Metro tank.. When all was running sweet, I tack soldered the gearbox to the frames so it would not move and then made an additional support from scrap brass and a piece of copper tube with a 1.5mm bore, soldered between the frames. The weakness with the DS10 was the bearing at the worm end. Vibration of the shaft would work the bearing loose sufficient for the worm to rise and drop out of mesch or gear lock. If you hold the shaft on a DS10 you can flex it as it is only 1.5 diameter. It took a while to figure out the cause. Picking up the Sharman box it was eureka moment.

 

Saying that, with the extra support the DS10 has proved reliable on a number of small engines with some of mine now over forty years old and still running fine.  I had a friend who put one in a K's LMS Garratt and wondered why the kept failing.

 

My father and I (and many others) had a lot of issues with the DS10. There were no further problems with the added support or if using the Sharman type gearbox.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Thanks Mike. I reckon I could knock one of those up. I'll have a go.

 

Tonight I spent fettling the fit of the axles and gearbox after soldering a small plate of 1.6mm PCB between the frames to support the motor. I'll hold the motor in place with a bit of black tack initially, until the build is complete, then replace the black tack by a small dab of flexible silicone sealant. I prefer not to solder the gearbox and frames up solid.

 

Finally, I tested the motor and trailing axle assembly with a 9V battery and then dismantled everything again to give the frames a good scrub with Jif and hot water.

[Siberian Snooper]

With the gearbox you have, how does the motor look if you mounted it vertically in the firebox? you will need to shorten the end of the motor shaft.

 

 

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

With the gearbox you have, how does the motor look if you mounted it vertically in the firebox? you will need to shorten the end of the motor shaft.

 

 

Too tall, unfortunately. That was the  first option I looked at.

[St Enodoc]

After cleaning up 2182's chassis last night and leaving it to dry overnight, when I woke up this morning I realised that it would have been a good idea to fit the pickup mounting pads first...

 

So, today I cut two pieces of double-sided PCB, soldered them in place from above and filed insulating gaps on the underside, then washed the frames again.

 

The pad on the left will pick up from the trailing axle while the one on the right will pick up from the leading and middle axles.

 

 

Edited March 23 by St Enodoc
@r$e about face

[Barry O]

Of course, when you visited guess who has a gearbox like that in my ready use gearbox draw.. never mind...

 

Baz