Class 800 - Updates

[Fat Controller]

Main LiNe? (In which case, whoever came up with the acronyms must have been a GWR fan, believing that the line out of Paddington is the only Main Line.)

 

Jim

In the list of Engineers' Line References in the WR Quail, there are MLN1, 2, 3 and 4, and all four are parts of the Main Line to Penzance. Is it possible that the ELRs were originally GWR in origin, and subsequently applied everywhere else?

[The Stationmaster]

I must admit Mike, that being somewhat of an old fogey, I'm going back to the 70's and beyond!

I was unaware of such issues as early as the 80's, but it shows where the rot set in, and somewhat validates my point a little?

 

Mike.

 

The problem being of course Mike is that it started in the BR era - basically with the 14X and 15X series of dmus although HSTs also contributed.  On one occasion - on an exercise so a reasonable amount of time (c.30 minutes) and lots of expertise to hand - we tried to couple a 15X series unit to an HST and we failed dismally; no need to imagine what things would have been like in the dark on a wet night with only the traincrew to hand and trying to do it where there were high balast shoulders and no cess path.

 

However one good thing came out of all these coupling differences as I was making soem quite good money for my then employer hiring out a suitable coupling converter vehicle to another operator in the latter half of the 1990s.

 

 

All matching my experience.

 

GWR HST sets are often the wrong way round and / or mis-formed typically with Coach F absent or a trailer first where a trailer standard should be.  Both make mockeries of the reservations and displace passengers who have sometimes paid extra for a specific seat.  Timings are tight and there isn't the option to nip around the triangles at Greenford, Bristol or Laira to turn sets by day.  But at night that should be possible.  I know that out-of-course diversions often turn sets but nothing should remain turned for longer than 24 hours even if it spent the night at Long Rock some five hours there-and-back from the nearest turning option.

 

I don't find the track east of West Drayton to upset the HST ride so I suspect there is a combination of factors at work - both the ride of the new trains and something they don't like about that trackwork.  In common with everything recent they are rough and uncomfortable over points, a serious fault from the customer comfort viewpoint which also afflicts classes 345, 387, 700, 707 and 710 at least.  How soon will the trickle of complaints and medical compensation claims for back injuries force change?  I wonder how long, too,  before we hear of ultrasonic wheel-crack detection.  I do find the seats in the 8xx class to be appallingly hard and uncomfortable and really am not looking forward to having to use such things for the Penzance run next year.

 

Catering is an issue.  I hear those who argue "bring your own" but that simply isn't the full and complete package where journey times exceed five hours.  And it is not possible to bring your own food which might require heating such as baby bottles.   A fixed buffet counter has the same access issues as a mobile trolley on busy services but can offer hot snacks, bottle-warming and stock a wider range and larger volume of items compared with a trolley.  I know the theory is that the trolley operates out of the first class galley area and so far reports are that it has made several trips through the train.  I suspect there is an element of "this is new" and of making a real effort for now.  Some other operators who has engaged in downgrading from fixed buffet cars to trolleys have later abandoned them altogether.  The requirement, expectation and practical realities differ between, for example, Southern / South Eastern and GWR (also East Coast who have also downgraded catering over recent years).  There is a a reasonable expectation that drinks, snacks and something a bit more substantial than a bag of crisps will be available when trains travel through at least one meal-time even if many customers do bring their own and as many more don't require refuelling en route.  Trolleys are notoriously fickle for being under-stocked, unable to carry more than a few sandwiches and too often are missing altogether; they also cannot do better than cheap coffee and those floppy milk tubes which are hard and messy to open whereas an HST buffet has a machine which sometimes produces much better coffee.  GWR is visibly running down the Express Cafe operation and has been for a year or so.  Fewer products are offered (often only one type of sandwich) and increasingly often the set is not re-supplied at the country terminus meaning there is next to nothing available on the return up run.  

 

GWR are shooting themselves in the feet - or perhaps are being shot in the feet by DafT - with these trains.  They are not going to run as intended - they should have been mostly straight electrics - so are being altered on the go before entering service.  They are not walk-through when two five-car units are coupled meaning that when boarding at one of the many short platforms it is very likely that passengers will be unable to access their reserved seats because they are in the other unit which was off the platform end.  There is, to my mind, inadequate provision for large luggage which on holiday routes is going to be a nightmare, and there is will be no acceleration in journey times as had been promised because the trains were never intended to run for hours on diesel power.  They also have yet to be proven past Dawlish in rough weather.  

 

Should we be pressing for a strategic reserve of HST stock?

 

The situation with HSTs is far simpler than with 2x5 800s as they are either the right way round or they are not and as long as Control and stations are on the ball passengers can be advised in time - and in my experience usually are.  And having managed a depot where HSTs were fuelled and serviced overnight I seriously doubt if there is any time available anywhere, except possibly Laira, to turn a set which arrives the wrong way round, the overnight depot turnround times simply didn't allow any margin to spend an hour or so turning a set - assuming there was a crew available to do it .  

 

The 800s are a very different kettle of fish as they can be, and appear to be, formed in 6 different ways when running as 2x5 coupled and they have obviously frequently been newly delivered the wrong way round which hardly gives a decent starting point.   Again I suspect time on depot would make finding time for turning difficult but plenty of sets were standing in North Pole yesterday doing little or nothing (unless they were all broken?) so a start could be made on putting them right where needed.  I know it isn't simple and I know sets get turned in traffic (which means they can just as easily be turned again in traffic to put them right) but that battle is lost before it starts if the darned things aren't delivered and introduced to traffic the right way round.  And yes - we used to plan, with no problems, delivering new sets the right way round, it's not exactly rocket science but it can sometimes be extremely complicated needing the aid of a piece of paper and a pencil.

 

The problem at stations is of course far more complex once you have a train turning up in any one of 6 potential formations and it is also difficult for Control - assuming they know about it - to advise out because there are so many possibilities.  Overall I think GWR has been dealt a very duff hand by DafT in respect of these trains but alas now they have got them they don't stand much chance of getting shot of them as there is basically nothing to replace them on long distance work. Hard seat 'cushions' apart my experience suggests that the 387 is in fact a far better train than the 800 although it lacks luggage space, but they definitely ride better at speed.

 

PS As far as MLN is concerned it reflects the GWR/WR Main Line route from Paddington to Bristol thence to Plymouth & Penzance - always in the past the first route in Table A of the relevant Sectional Appendices and regarded as 'the main line' on the Western.

[The Stationmaster]

In the list of Engineers' Line References in the WR Quail, there are MLN1, 2, 3 and 4, and all four are parts of the Main Line to Penzance. Is it possible that the ELRs were originally GWR in origin, and subsequently applied everywhere else?

 

They were definitely used on the WR a good few years back and they are also shown on even older single line diagrams.

[Zomboid]

The technology exists to let passengers know which way round a set is. Cross country trains are advertised as "Train Formed ABCDF" or whatever, and they even have diagrams on VWC stations that show the level of reservation on a per-carriage basis. Of course VWC routes only very rarely result in a reversed set, but XC can be just about anything with 4 and 5 car sets facing either direction.

 

Just makes it even worse that GWR can't publicise what they're running.

 

At least the 9 cars can only be pointing the right or wrong way.

[iands]

In the list of Engineers' Line References in the WR Quail, there are MLN1, 2, 3 and 4, and all four are parts of the Main Line to Penzance. Is it possible that the ELRs were originally GWR in origin, and subsequently applied everywhere else?

 

There's a good explanation of the origins of ELRs on www.railwaycodes.org.uk website.

 

Regards, Ian.

[The Stationmaster]

The technology exists to let passengers know which way round a set is. Cross country trains are advertised as "Train Formed ABCDF" or whatever, and they even have diagrams on VWC stations that show the level of reservation on a per-carriage basis. Of course VWC routes only very rarely result in a reversed set, but XC can be just about anything with 4 and 5 car sets facing either direction.

 

Just makes it even worse that GWR can't publicise what they're running.

 

At least the 9 cars can only be pointing the right or wrong way.

 

The technology would have to be able to cater for 6 variants if used for GWR 2x5 formations and it begs the old question - just how many passengers actually look at such information? (in my experience it is 'not many')

[Talltim]

For XC trains there are more combinations as they have 4 and five car units as well as HSTs

[Gwiwer]

The GWR network is not blessed with a Newcastle. ECML trains which arrive there the wrong way round can be worked “around the bridges” to correct the problem with little if any effect on timekeeping. I have had that happen on numerous occasions both arriving from the south turned before arrival and arrival from north turned after departure. At Edinburgh HST sets can be turned via the Suburban Line. How much time and effort would it be to do that at Bristol?

 

Interesting comparison between 387 and 800-types. I agree that the 387 is more comfortable (though still not adequately comfortable) up and down the Thames Valley though would not wish to endure one all tge way if they should ever reach Cardiff.

 

It is noticeable on Southern that the fastest trains between Victoria and Brighton, now all formed of Gatwick Express 387s, are rather less busy than the 377-worked semi-fasts. As I am talking peak times when discounted fares are not available there should be no price differential to or from Sussex towns (only between Gatwick and Victoria) so it seems the gentlefolk of Commuterland are voting with their behinds. Better an extra 10-15 minutes on a tolerable cushion than a quick run on an ironing board.

[ejstubbs]

The technology would have to be able to cater for 6 variants if used for GWR 2x5 formations

 

Why six?  Unless there's another criterion that I'm not aware of, or I've missed something blindingly obvious (either is quite possible!) then I can only envisage four:

 

right way/right way

right way/wrong way

wrong way/right way

wrong way/wrong way

 

I must be missing something...

Edited September 16, 2018 by ejstubbs

[HillsideDepot]

This is the line-up for the next few hours at Chippenham, via the iris2.rail.co.uk/tiger site

The formations are showing, and they appear on the scrolling display part of the "next train from" units. You can lead a passenger to the information, but you can't make them read it...

[HillsideDepot]

Why six?  Unless there's another criterion that I'm not aware of, or I've missed something blindingly obvious (either is quite possible!) then I can only envisage four:

 

right way/right way

right way/wrong way

wrong way/right way

wrong way/wrong way

 

I must be missing something...

right way (single unit)

wrong way (single unit)

[Talltim]

Why six? Unless there's another criterion that I'm not aware of, or I've missed something blindingly obvious (either is quite possible!) then I can only envisage four:

 

right way/right way

right way/wrong way

wrong way/right way

wrong way/wrong way

 

I must be missing something...

I just thought I couldn’t count (I’ve got a cold so I’m not on top form) of course if you also count the 9 car then you get 6

[Mark Saunders]

This is the line-up for the next few hours at Chippenham, via the iris2.rail.co.uk/tiger site

CIS.JPG

The formations are showing, and they appear on the scrolling display part of the "next train from" units. You can lead a passenger to the information, but you can't make them read it...

 

Notices are to be read, walked around and ignored!

[Coryton]

This is the line-up for the next few hours at Chippenham, via the iris2.rail.co.uk/tiger site

CIS.JPG

The formations are showing, and they appear on the scrolling display part of the "next train from" units. You can lead a passenger to the information, but you can't make them read it...

 

That's great but if information as you presented there is the norm then I think it is a recent development. I only started seeing the "first class in coaches x,y, and z" style a month or so ago. (And, given that coaches normally* have letters not numbers, some people might find it a bit confusing though I can't think of a better way of doing it).

 

I think you'll find that the complaints here about not knowing formations in advance are mostly if not all from people who travelled when there was no such information given, not because they couldn't be bothered to look at a screen.

 

The last time I caught an IET from Cardiff to London (a few weeks ago) the only information was that what should have been a 10 coach train was going to be 5 coaches. No more. I asked a member of platform staff which way round it was going to be. He had no idea, and got onto someone via his walky talky who also had no idea.

 

Maybe GWR stations do better.

 

It is particularly frustrating because while which way each unit is pointing is a 'hardware' problem, in principle making sure that coach A is somewhere at the country end of the train (or vice versa so long as it's consistent) should be very easily addressed in software. Nobody has to even go round changing stickers on the sides...

 

* I say normally because recently I travelled in coach "2" on an IET, which at least made it very clear that nobody's reservations for the 10 coach train it should have been but wasn't were valid.

 

Edited to add:

 

And I've just realised that the screen shot above still isn't giving enough information. I know which way round the two units are facing in each train, which is useful. But if I have a reservation in coach B I still don't know if that's going to be in the front or the rear unit. So, sorry, but no the passengers really can't be blamed for not knowing where to stand.

 

What we really need are train description diagrams as in some other countries. Now, I could have sworn I saw something very much like that somewhere between London and Cardiff a few weeks ago. I tried to take a photograph but the camera wasn't playing nicely with the refresh rate of the screen. But now I'm wondering if I imagined it anyway.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Coryton

[ejstubbs]

right way (single unit)

wrong way (single unit)

 

Stationmaster's post (which I quoted) said: "6 variants if used for GWR 2x5 formations".  That would seem to rule out single units.  However, it does seem likely that what you suggest may well be what he actually meant.

Edited September 16, 2018 by ejstubbs

[Coryton]

Stationmaster's post (which I quoted) said: "6 variants if used for GWR 2x5 formations".  That would seem to rule out single units.  However, it may well be what he meant.

 

If you read that as "if used for trains diagrammed as 2x5 formations" then it's correct, as it is seems to be quite common at the moment for a 10 coach train to be replaced with a 5 coach one. At least you don't have to worry about which unit has your reservation in because the train will be running without reservations.

[Zomboid]

.LWhat we really need are train description diagrams as in some other countries. Now, I could have sworn I saw something very much like that somewhere between London and Cardiff a few weeks ago. I tried to take a photograph but the camera wasn't playing nicely with the refresh rate of the screen. But now I'm wondering if I imagined it anyway.

They have them on the WCML. I think I saw them at Kings Cross too, but haven't been there in ages so might be mistaken.

[jamie92208]

They have them on the WCML. I think I saw them at Kings Cross too, but haven't been there in ages so might be mistaken.

 

They have them in France and cope with double TGV's.   I'll try and take a photo of one next week.

 

Jamie

[The Stationmaster]

Six combinations (including reversals of course).

 

We'll give the trains A (should be London end) and B (should be Bristol end) codes to explain -

 

1. Booked and advertised formation is (from the Bristol End) -  B/A + B/A 

2. Reversed formation of a correctly marshalled train. - A/B + A/B

 

Incorrectly marshalled formations -

3. A/B + B/A

4. 3 reversed

5.  B/A + A/B 

6.  5 reversed

 

End A has the wheelchair space so with a passenger in a wheelchair requiring to board or leave the train and reserved to a particular coach the bridging board has to be in the correct place to get the boarding/alighting process done within station time.  Even though the door can in some situations be no more than a distance of two coach lengths apart (i.e. 5 & 6 above) there are others where it can be an entire train length apart (i. 3 & 4 above).  Similarly reserved bicycle spaces can be way off where they should be platformed as of course can be reserved seats.  Net result - as seen at Cardiff and elsewhere by me - is people milling about on station platforms trying to find the right coach, and in some cases that will be over the length of a 5 car set and potentially over the length of a 10 car train.

[Talltim]

Six combinations (including reversals of course).

 

We'll give the trains A (should be London end) and B (should be Bristol end) codes to explain -

 

1. Booked and advertised formation is (from the Bristol End) -  B/A + B/A 

2. Reversed formation of a correctly marshalled train. - A/B + A/B

 

Incorrectly marshalled formations -

3. A/B + B/A

4. 3 reversed

5.  B/A + A/B 

6.  5 reversed

 

End A has the wheelchair space so with a passenger in a wheelchair requiring to board or leave the train and reserved to a particular coach the bridging board has to be in the correct place to get the boarding/alighting process done within station time.  Even though the door can in some situations be no more than a distance of two coach lengths apart (i.e. 5 & 6 above) there are others where it can be an entire train length apart (i. 3 & 4 above).  Similarly reserved bicycle spaces can be way off where they should be platformed as of course can be reserved seats.  Net result - as seen at Cardiff and elsewhere by me - is people milling about on station platforms trying to find the right coach, and in some cases that will be over the length of a 5 car set and potentially over the length of a 10 car train.

Aren't 4 and 6 the same as 3 and 5 respectively? Or are you also talking about the coach letters?

Edited September 17, 2018 by Talltim

[eastwestdivide]

The coach letters matter for those with reservations, hence the variations. 

With notional letters A-E for the first unit and V-Z for the second, and first class marked in bold as A and V:

<--front+back-->

ABCDE+VWXYZ

ABCDE+ZYXWV

EDCBA+VWXYZ

EDCBA+ZYXWV

VWXYZ+ABCDE

ZYXWV+ABCDE

VWXYZ+EDCBA

ZYXWV+EDCBA

 

So there are 8 possible arrangements of the coaches on the platform.

But for any given coach, there are only 4 positions that it might end up on the platform.

 

My head hurts and I'm still not sure I've got it right.

Edited September 17, 2018 by eastwestdivide

[caradoc]

Thanks Stationmaster and eastwestdivide, my head hurts now too ! Given that there are so many possible variations of train formation it is more important than ever to get the trains orientated and marshalled right in the first place, or if not to tell passengers and staff exactly where each coach is. My own (limited) experience so far does not fill me with hope......

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I'm sure there's the name of a Swedish pop group in that lot; though they never sung about Paddington.

[ejstubbs]

Aren't 4 and 6 the same as 3 and 5 respectively?

 

Certainly looks that way to me.  As eastwestdivide illustrated, if the actual coach letters matter than you get eight combinations.

[Talltim]

Presumably you can change the coach letters in software? So using the stationmaster’s examples, 5 can become 3 and 6 become 4 without any physical train turning, reducing the amount of combinations. Still not ideal