Class 800 - Updates

[jim.snowdon]

 

I shall no longer post on a thread about a train I will shortly be learning to drive!

So you don't actually have any first hand experience of the trains you are prepared to be derogatory about?

 

Jim

[royaloak]

So you don't actually have any first hand experience of the trains you are prepared to be derogatory about?

 

Jim

Yes I have actually, I posted about it a year or so ago but dont let that stop you!

 

If you can be bothered to go back through my posts you will note that I think the cab is well laid out, the interiors are okay if a little clinical, the electric performance is, well, electric and the diesel performance (which I will be using most of the time) is pathetic although we eagerly await the 802s to see how they do.

Edited January 15, 2018 by royaloak

[royaloak]

I cannot respect anyone who has such hyper-delicate sensibilities. We are no longer living in 1950s drawing rooms. If you’re just going to criticise people with different sensibilities please (sic) do not post.

 

Paul

Its the way it is these days, people just look to be outraged at anything and everything, a little bit of humour is lost on them!

[jim.snowdon]

Yes I have actually, I posted about it a year or so ago but dont let that stop you!

 

If you can be bothered to go back through my posts you will note that I think the cab is well laid out, the interiors are okay if a little clinical, the electric performance is, well, electric and the diesel performance (which I will be using most of the time) is pathetic although we eagerly await the 802s to see how they do.

I won't. If you say you are about to be trained to drive these trains then it has to be assumed that up until then, you have no actual driving experience (or been breaking the rules). The performance is not an issue unless they are incapable of delivering the scheduled running times, which is not the driver's problem.

 

Its the way it is these days, people just look to be outraged at anything and everything, a little bit of humour is lost on them!

I would just call it unnecessary, and not even humour, just being derisory to something because it isn't an HST.

 

Jim

[Metr0Land]

I was just wondering if I'd stepped into the bullhead rail thread by mistake?

[D854_Tiger]

I would just call it unnecessary, and not even humour, just being derisory to something because it isn't an HST.

 

Jim

 

Speaking personally, I've still not got over the class 50s displacing the Westerns.

 

Then I don't think the HST was **** just because it displaced the Deltics but, let's put it this way, I reckon class 666 would have been a more appropriate designation for a Demon Seed.

[Zomboid]

Every new train has unflattering nicknames, especially new designs which don't work perfectly from the box.

 

And it's going to continue for as long as there are new designs. Nothing to see here...

[jamie92208]

The HST had quite a few problems including a tendency for the power cars to detach themselves from the rest of the train. Obviously a thing you don't want to happen. I believe that it turned out to be because of the different suspension characteristics between the two types of vehicles. It was solved fairly quickly by altering the metallurgy of the couplers on the power cars. They were also blacked by the drivers for quite a long time. There will always be unflattering descriptions of new trains, especially if they are replacing a much loved older one.

 

Jamie

Edited January 15, 2018 by jamie92208

[Siberian Snooper]

Every new train has unflattering nicknames, especially new designs which don't work perfectly from the box.

And it's going to continue for as long as there are new designs. Nothing to see here...

Should hear the names given to some of the busses I have driven.

[Coryton]

They were also blacked by the drivers for quite a long time. 

 

I don't remember that.

 

I think there were problems with the prototype because of the single-man cab.

[The Stationmaster]

The HST had quite a few problems including tendency for the power cars to detach themselves from the rest of the train. Obviously a thing you don't want to happen. I believe that it turned out to be because of the different suspension characteristics between the two types of vehicles. It was solved fairly quickly by altering the metallurgy of the couplers on the power cars. They were also blacked by the drivers for quite a long time. There will always be unflattering descriptions of new trains, especially if they are replacing a much loved older one.

 

Jamie

 

Exactly so and of course those of us who have travelled in them (and have reported our experiences here) know full well that these trains are unable to maintain some Point-to-Point times when running on diesel power and there has been plenty about that in the technical press as well.  Views about the interior are inevitably going to be divided because we look for different things and value them in different ways, similarly opinions about the ride might also be a little subjective although the vibration I noted when travelling fast on diesel power was so obvious as to not be in need of any sort of subjectivity.

 

My own acronym for the trains remains as ICCE (Inter City Curate's Egg) and to me that is exactly what they are - good in parts.  But they are very definitely not the sort of step forward from an HST that the HST was from the loco hauled stock which preceded it and that to me, and a number of other former senior railwaymen I know, comes as something of a disappointment (although they clearly go like a rocket when running on electric power).  And in my book definitely disappointment when compared with the Class 387s now on WR outer suburban workings which are giving us a further step forward from past standards, and past steps forward (although the seats are rather hard).

 

Incidentally the parting of HST power cars was down to far more than metallurgy and resulted in a fairly rapid modification of the couplers while similarly the interior door handles also vanished pretty quickly after several passenger fatalities.  And those of us who were around to see are not going to forget the problems they had in hot weather due to inadequate cooling capacity.  But for all that in terms of the passenger experience they were a huge, and universally welcomed,  step forward but even then some folk hated them and I knew of one chap who refused to travel on them and was actually daft enough to drive up & down the M4 instead (until he was involved in an accident).

 

New trains - new profanities; some things never change.  And that happened just as much in the steam age.

[The Stationmaster]

I don't remember that.

 

I think there were problems with the prototype because of the single-man cab.

I seem to recall they were delayed entering into traffic because of the cab design which originally only provided a single seat in the cab.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Were there any problems with Stephenson's "Rocket"?

[The Great Bear]

Were there any problems with Stephenson's "Rocket"?

 

Well, in comparison, the class 800 hasn't claimed the life of an MP yet.

[rab]

I won't. If you say you are about to be trained to drive these trains then it has to be assumed that up until then, you have no actual driving experience (or been breaking the rules). The performance is not an issue unless they are incapable of delivering the scheduled running times, which is not the driver's problem.

 

 

I would just call it unnecessary, and not even humour, just being derisory to something because it isn't an HST.

 

 

Jim

Some of us not otherwise 'in the know' are

finding this thread useful and informative.

I for one would hate to see it locked

because of 'personal spats'.

Perhaps these sort of discussions would be

better continued through private messaging.

[Titan]

Were there any problems with Stephenson's "Rocket"?

 

The cylinders were placed at the wrong angle, soon modified after the trials, as well as the fitting of a smokebox.

[DavidB]

And in my book definitely disappointment when compared with the Class 387s now on WR outer suburban workings which are giving us a further step forward from past standards, and past steps forward (although the seats are rather hard).

I completely agree. Going slightly off-topic, are the 387s fitted with GW ATP? After years of absolute adherence (in my experience) to speed limits on the Western, some of my recent trips on semi-fast 387s have been unexpectedly exuberant (e.g. 113mph easily maintained between West Drayton and Slough on the Down Main). Or does ATP only apply to line speeds (125 in this case) and not to lower limits applied to specific types of traction (e.g. 110 for the 387s)? Either way, they are impressive performers.

[jjb1970]

I'm not sure I've ever been involved with a genuinely new design or product that wasn't the biggest heap of garbage known to man in the view of operators and maintenance people when they were nursing the things through the commissioning and introduction to service phases. Once they settle down and the initial issues are worked through people move onto whinging about the next new idea and at some point the things become much loved classic designs. What is much worse is when serially produced items are addled with problems and defects because of careless manufacture.

[Coryton]

I'm not sure I've ever been involved with a genuinely new design or product that wasn't the biggest heap of garbage known to man in the view of operators and maintenance people when they were nursing the things through the commissioning and introduction to service phases. Once they settle down and the initial issues are worked through people move onto whinging about the next new idea and at some point the things become much loved classic designs. What is much worse is when serially produced items are addled with problems and defects because of careless manufacture.

 

Of course while new trains normally do settle down it sometimes needs some major work before it happens, and there have been a few cases where they never did (LRC power cars (Canada), Fyra (Netherlands/Belgium), and closer to home dare I mention the APT?).

[jjb1970]

Another example of a train that never worked (at least not for the original customer) was the Norwegian Di6 which ended up being sent back to Germany in disgrace. Also, the big 6000HP North American diesels of the mid 90's (GE AC60CW and SD90MAC) were a bit of a flop. Most do end up working though. I've seen one or two diesel engine designs put out of their misery when it was obvious they just weren't working but it is pretty rare.

[Coryton]

 What is much worse is when serially produced items are addled with problems and defects because of careless manufacture.

 

Romanian 56's?

[Ken.W]

The HST had quite a few problems including a tendency for the power cars to detach themselves from the rest of the train. Obviously a thing you don't want to happen. I believe that it turned out to be because of the different suspension characteristics between the two types of vehicles. It was solved fairly quickly by altering the metallurgy of the couplers on the power cars. They were also blacked by the drivers for quite a long time. There will always be unflattering descriptions of new trains, especially if they are replacing a much loved older one.

 

Jamie

Or in this case, replacing a loved much older one

[Ken.W]

I completely agree. Going slightly off-topic, are the 387s fitted with GW ATP? After years of absolute adherence (in my experience) to speed limits on the Western, some of my recent trips on semi-fast 387s have been unexpectedly exuberant (e.g. 113mph easily maintained between West Drayton and Slough on the Down Main). Or does ATP only apply to line speeds (125 in this case) and not to lower limits applied to specific types of traction (e.g. 110 for the 387s)? Either way, they are impressive performers.

If, as you say, the 387's limit's 110, then 113's 'within tolerance' for the speedo (or more like on it!), and don't forget, with or without ATP, anything that moves has OTMR

[black and decker boy]

From reading the similar thread on wnxx, it seems that RoyalOaks nickname for the 80x is quite common for GWR footplate staff and may even be at the polite end of the spectrum.

[Ken.W]

I won't. If you say you are about to be trained to drive these trains then it has to be assumed that up until then, you have no actual driving experience (or been breaking the rules). The performance is not an issue unless they are incapable of delivering the scheduled running times, which is not the driver's problem.

 

I would just call it unnecessary, and not even humour, just being derisory to something because it isn't an HST.

 

Jim

Railway staff in general are quite well renowned for talking to each other. So a lot of us, even without having been on one, have information about them first-hand from some who actually have.

There's also quite a number of other operational reasons a driver may have been on one without actually driving it (eg the recent Inverness test run had a VTEC driver route conducting). To suggest someone would break the rules by driving something they shouldn't in the modern climate's nothing short of ridiculous.

 

Talking of talking... I've heard from two others who've been talking to GW staff they've met at KX, who've said on the IEP launch at Bristol their HST driver were instructed not to pull away in more that notch 2 so as not to show up the new trains.

 

And they're known as Satsumas