Class 800 - Updates

[Ron Ron Ron]

From my understanding in talking to the GWR Program Managers is that they have a 'Donkey' Engine to provide Hotel power in the event of loss of main engine power, this may well be that.

 

Simon

 

 

That doesn't sound particularly credible to me. For a train to lose hotel power it would need at least 3 engines to fail, that's probably enough redundancy to avert installing yet another engine with its attendant maintenance liability.

I recall uncle Roger saying something about what was under the driving cars meaning that the best place to sit from a quietness point of view would be the motor vehicles, but I don't recall what it was that's fitted. I'd hazard a guess at compressors and the like.

 

 

The engine for emergency hotel power and limp home capability, is only needed on the all-electric Class 801.

One diesel equipped vehicle, the same as a regular diesel fitted Class 800 vehicle, is included in the set.

The driving vehicles do not have an engine.

 

The Class 800's & 802's don't need this facility as they already have 3 or 5 Diesel engines in the set.

 

 

.

[St. Simon]

The engine for emergency hotel power and limp home capability, is only needed on the all-electric Class 801.

One diesel equipped vehicle, the same as a regular diesel fitted Class 800 vehicle, is included in the set.

The driving vehicles do not have an engine.

 

The Class 800's & 802's don't need this facility as they already have 3 or 5 Diesel engines in the set.

 

 

.

 

Come to think of it, they were talking about the 'train' in general, so perhaps they meant the Class 801.

 

Simon

[Coryton]

, but then having government interference is an unfortunate side-effect of being a nationalised industry in the UK. 

 

Unfortunately, on the railways it seems to be a much stronger side-effect of being an ostensibly privatised industry....

[Ken.W]

Basically, as other people's have been said, the standard convention is to use the TOPS code, and seen as the signs apply to the Class 800's and 802's, it was easier to write 80X instead. Of course, if in the near future there are Class 81x units which can convert (or indeed Class 80x units which can't convert), then we'll have to look at the signs again.

 

We can't use commercial terms / names for when naming stuff on NR (hence you'll never see North Pole Depot officially referred to as the 'Hitachi Depot' or similar), therefore we can't use IET or SET.

 

Simon

VTEC are planning on using the 'Azuma' brand on their stop markers for the 800s.

 

There's other non-standard ones, GN for their new sets have blue on white diamond signs, some of which say simply "FLU"

(the others are 'RLU' or 'ALL')

[Coryton]

Come to think of it, they were talking about the 'train' in general, so perhaps they meant the Class 801.

 

 

But as Ron, Ron, Ron said, an 801 doesn't have anything extra under the driving cars that an 800 doesn't have.

 

It's just that in an 801 just one non-driving car has a diesel engine underneath (for emergency power) whereas the full bi-modes have them under all the non driving cars.

[Coryton]

There's other non-standard ones, GN for their new sets have blue on white diamond signs, some of which say simply "FLU"

(the others are 'RLU' or 'ALL')

 

Which I believe was done to make them distinctively different from markers for other train classes.

 

Somewhere on the internet is (or was) the request for a deviation from the regulations to permit them (nominally on a trial basis, I think) as they don't meet the usual regulations for stop markers.

[Ron Ron Ron]

...It's just that in an 801 just one non-driving car has a diesel engine underneath (for emergency power) whereas the full bi-modes have them under all the non driving cars.

 

 

Only on the 5-car bi-mode (under the 3 intermediate cars).

 

On the 9-car bi-mode, there are 5 intermediate cars with engines and 2 intermediate trailers.

 

 

 

.

[St. Simon]

VTEC are planning on using the 'Azuma' brand on their stop markers for the 800s.

 

There's other non-standard ones, GN for their new sets have blue on white diamond signs, some of which say simply "FLU"

(the others are 'RLU' or 'ALL')

 

Car Stop Markers are the Train Operating Companies responsibility, not Network Rail's, the TOCs can pretty much do anything they want with those (having had it approved by the RSSB).

 

Simon

[Coryton]

Only on the 5-car bi-mode (under the 3 intermediate cars).

 

On the 9-car bi-mode, there are 5 intermediate cars with engines and 2 intermediate trailers..

 

Ah yes. I'd forgotten that.

 

Hmmm....I wonder if you could you put engines under the 2 trailers on a 9 car train and get better performance?

[St. Simon]

Ah yes. I'd forgotten that.

 

Hmmm....I wonder if you could you put engines under the 2 trailers on a 9 car train and get better performance?

 

You can't simply put 2 engines in the trailers as there's no electric motors on these trailers, you would have to exchange the trailers for motor vehicles.

 

Simon

[Coryton]

You can't simply put 2 engines in the trailers as there's no electric motors on these trailers, you would have to exchange the trailers for motor vehicles.

 

In electric power a single pantograph must feed all the motors.

 

In diesel mode do the diesels each only power the motors in their coach?

[Titan]

Not only that, but I expect the trailers will not have the raised floor needed to fit the engines under, so you could not convert them anyway, motors or no motors.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Not only that, but I expect the trailers will not have the raised floor needed to fit the engines under, so you could not convert them anyway, motors or no motors.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought they changed the design plans, so that for ease of production and compatibility, all intermediate vehicles were built the same, with the raised floor.

Regardless of whether there was a diesel power pack raft fitted or not.

AFAIK the only non-raised floor vehicles, are the driving, pantograph fitted trailers, because of the lowered ceiling (for the pans).

 

 

.

 

 

.

[phil-b259]

FLU = "Full length Unit" - as in a 12 car fixed formation 700 series Thameslink unit

 

RLU = "Reduced Length Unit" - as in a 8 car fixed formation 700 series Thameslink unit.

 

All stations currently or due to be served under the full Thameslink service plan will have these. They have no significance for other multiple units such as Electrostars or Desiros as those can of course come in lots of different lengths depending on how many, and what individual sub classes are coupled together. Plus of course Thameslink vehicles are all 20m long - as opposed to the 23m of the 444s or 26m of the 800s....

Edited January 16, 2018 by phil-b259

[Coryton]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought they changed the design plans, so that for ease of production and compatibility, all intermediate vehicles were built the same, with the raised floor.

Regardless of whether there was a diesel power pack raft fitted or not.

AFAIK the only non-raised floor vehicles, are the driving, pantograph fitted trailers, because of the lowered ceiling (for the pans).

.

 

Given that we're in a world where we don't like to make different bodyshells for first and standard class coaches despite the different seat spacing, I'd be very surprised if they wanted to "tool up" a different intermediate car design unnecessarily.

 

It would also add more internal ramps at coach ends which would be a nuisance, especially as - I think - to fit the ramps in the passenger door has to be moved further down the coach (with the space in end cars taken up by disabled toilets).

[Coach bogie]

Rail Magazine reported that Virgin East Coast will begin Azuma service in December 2018.

 

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/vtec-confirms-december-2018-start-date-for-azumas

 

I book the same position return seats in coach K ( it's my seat!!!!!) every week and have been hit with a sudden change to advance bookings. If you try and book a ticket from May this year, there are no seating plans or quiet coaches available on KGX-Edinburgh trains. A phone call to Virgin revealed that they have no seating plans beyond the end of April, and can only reserve a seat but the actual position cannot be chosen by the customer. Speaking to on train staff, the booking system is allocating the next numerical seat up as they do not know what trains will be running.

 

Doe this mean the new trains will begin earlier?

 

Mike Wiltshire

[St. Simon]

Rail Magazine reported that Virgin East Coast will begin Azuma service in December 2018.

 

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/vtec-confirms-december-2018-start-date-for-azumas

 

I book the same position return seats in coach K ( it's my seat!!!!!) every week and have been hit with a sudden change to advance bookings. If you try and book a ticket from May this year, there are no seating plans or quiet coaches available on KGX-Edinburgh trains. A phone call to Virgin revealed that they have no seating plans beyond the end of April, and can only reserve a seat but the actual position cannot be chosen by the customer. Speaking to on train staff, the booking system is allocating the next numerical seat up as they do not know what trains will be running.

 

Doe this mean the new trains will begin earlier?

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Not necessarily, the timetable / path is only confirmed 12 weeks ahead of the train running, so for a trip beyond May, you won't be able to book until after February. Once the path is confirmed, they can allocate trains to the diagrams and then allow the seating plan to be confirmed.

 

Simon

[black and decker boy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought they changed the design plans, so that for ease of production and compatibility, all intermediate vehicles were built the same, with the raised floor.

Regardless of whether there was a diesel power pack raft fitted or not.

AFAIK the only non-raised floor vehicles, are the driving, pantograph fitted trailers, because of the lowered ceiling (for the pans).

[]

Correct, only 2 designs being built.

 

1) Driving end cars with low floor. No room for power packs. Window apertures cut then panel welded back in where TOC want a kitchen area. All fitted with pantograph wells.

 

2) intermediate cars with raised floors. Can be fitted out with power packs and / or motors.

[D854_Tiger]

Ah yes. I'd forgotten that.

 

Hmmm....I wonder if you could you put engines under the 2 trailers on a 9 car train and get better performance?

 

Why would you want to do that?

 

There seems to be an assumption at large that class 800s are under powered when running on diesel.

 

This is an incorrect assumption, the more correct assumption is that the class 800s are under powered when running on diesel but only when using diesel when they should rather be taking electricity from overhead wires.

 

This problem is being addressed (eventually) in other ways that does not involve diesel power.

 

In the meantime, it would appear that the DfT has already decided that GW will have to put up with this issue rather than providing the short term (expensive) fix of increasing the diesel power.

[Coach bogie]

Not necessarily, the timetable / path is only confirmed 12 weeks ahead of the train running, so for a trip beyond May, you won't be able to book until after February. Once the path is confirmed, they can allocate trains to the diagrams and then allow the seating plan to be confirmed.

 

Simon

I have been booking the same seat 6 months in advance for several years, as per the Virgin Website. this is the first time there has been an issue.

 

Today Virgin are taking bookings up to June 29.

 

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited January 17, 2018 by Coach bogie

[woodenhead]

 

In the meantime, it would appear that the DfT has already decided that GW will have to put up with this issue rather than providing the short term (expensive) fix of increasing the diesel power.

More likely that GWR will apply a change control on their obligations to the DFT so they are not penalised for late running trains that cannot keep to schedule.

[Coryton]

Why would you want to do that?

 

There seems to be an assumption at large that class 800s are under powered when running on diesel.

 

This is an incorrect assumption, the more correct assumption is that the class 800s are under powered when running on diesel but only when using diesel when they should rather be taking electricity from overhead wires.

 

This problem is being addressed (eventually) in other ways that does not involve diesel power.

 

 

Perhaps. There have been suggestions otherwise though.

 

I'm not an insider so I have no way of knowing if the claims that they will struggle between Edinburgh and Inverness are true. I do know though that no matter how well or not they perform, electrifying that line is not going to be the answer.

 

I also know that they are going to run for a considerable period (possibly their entire life) over non electrified routes that were intended to be electrified when the trains were procured. (E.g. Cardiff to Swansea).

[D854_Tiger]

Perhaps. There have been suggestions otherwise though.

 

I'm not an insider so I have no way of knowing if the claims that they will struggle between Edinburgh and Inverness are true. I do know though that no matter how well or not they perform, electrifying that line is not going to be the answer.

 

I also know that they are going to run for a considerable period (possibly their entire life) over non electrified routes that were intended to be electrified when the trains were procured. (E.g. Cardiff to Swansea).

 

I'm not sure of the extent to which Cardiff - Swansea ever was on the cards or might still be (eventually).

 

Swansea could though still benefit from the accelerated electric timetable east of Cardiff and the fewer stops planned between there and Paddington.

 

As for Inverness, a sluggish IET is just one train a day amongst what will be an otherwise super HST timetable (2 + 4) instead of the current class 170 timetable.

 

I would call that a nice problem to have.

[royaloak]

Why would you want to do that?

 

There seems to be an assumption at large that class 800s are under powered when running on diesel.

 

This is an incorrect assumption, the more correct assumption is that the class 800s are under powered when running on diesel but only when using diesel when they should rather be taking electricity from overhead wires.

 

This problem is being addressed (eventually) in other ways that does not involve diesel power.

 

In the meantime, it would appear that the DfT has already decided that GW will have to put up with this issue rather than providing the short term (expensive) fix of increasing the diesel power.

So my first hand experience of slogging up the banks at a speed which a 150 would be embarrassed by is wrong then!

 

The simple fact is they are underpowered when running on diesel, the whys and wherefores are irrelevant to the travelling public who have an expectation that the new train should be better than the ones they replace.

 

As for your last two statements got any proof of that please (PM if you want).

[D854_Tiger]

So my first hand experience of slogging up the banks at a speed which a 150 would be embarrassed by is wrong then!

 

The simple fact is they are underpowered when running on diesel, the whys and wherefores are irrelevant to the travelling public who have an expectation that the new train should be better than the ones they replace.

 

As for your last two statements got any proof of that please (PM if you want).

 

Captain Deltic