Class 800 - Updates

[The Stationmaster]

At present on GWR weekend dates are down to one month's notice according to this: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/44703.aspx  - which is frustrating if like me you're coming up to the 12 week window for booking the first leg of a holiday in May, and your first leg needs to happen on a Sunday....!

 

Kind of impressed at the longer weekday VTEC dates - should be aspirational for the industry IMHO.

 

 

 

Well worth a complaint through Customer Focus (or whatever it's called nowadays) as it is a clear failure to comply with a national standard.

 

In some respects I can perhaps understand the reasons for it (i.e. 'electrification work') but in reality they will amount to little more than excuses for abysmal panning within NR which are leaving the train operator both in the lurch and in the firing line.  Some people, such as that Grayling fellah, will no doubt use it as an excuse to call for 'closer co-operation between the infrastructure owner and train operator' but that is to blatantly ignore the real reason - Network Rail failing dismally to do what it should be doing.  I have more than a suspicion that I could advance quite a heap of reasons for that but always starting with the way NR has certain tasks organised (badly, and remotely from both the scene of action and their customer) and the seeming inability of the GW electrification project team to produce and manage a logical possession programme.

 

So get on and complain!

[royaloak]

Cheltenham with a class 800, yes I see that problem over Sapperton, however minimum eight minutes to reverse a HST at Gloucester suggests no one has ever been in a hurry on that part of the GW and the new trains should be quicker to compensate between Swindon and London.

If 8 minutes is too long, how long do you think it should take bearing in mind all the things the driver has to do when changing ends?

 

Can you list all the things the driver has to do from arrival to departure when changing ends?

Or are you commenting on something else you know nothing about?

[royaloak]

Whichever way you choose to look at it, it was always going to be the case that the entire GW timetable was going to be recast eventually, such that the HST timetable and its timings are destined to be tomorrow's chip paper.

 

The doubling of frequency on the core route, the reintroduction of fast (limited stop) trains to both Cardiff and Bristol (and via Parkway), I suspect that decision has already been made, otherwise what is the point of new trains and all that electrification.

Yes the decision had been made and the draught timetable drawn up using the figures supplied by DaFT/Hitachi to ensure the timetable worked, guess what it doesnt work now because the 800s are so much slower point to point, not that some people will accept that fact!

[D854_Tiger]

Yes, but if the 800 is even slower than the 2+9 then the problem is worse and harder to solve.

 

Well, in my line of work (IT), I tend to view problems as the things that keep me in work.

 

Plenty don't of course, despairing with their heads in their hands, but they always seem to be the kind of people that would prefer a job, where they don't have to do that much, and exist in some kind of delusion that someone will always be there to provide it.

 

As I said before, on the Highland Line, it's just one train a day, full of people that if they were in any kind of a rush would have already been at the airport.

 

Then the idea a whole new train fleet design should have revolved around that one service strikes me as ......

 

As with any service improvement, targeted at the majority of passengers, there are always going to be some losers (ideally small in number) but when has it ever been any different.

 

Put it this way, thus far, if the worst criticism of the class 800 that can be found to throw at it is the Highland line it can't be doing that bad.

[Geoff Endacott]

800021 & 800023 allocated 1B27 11.15 Paddington to Cardiff.

 

Paddington RT, Cardiff 57L.

 

"Prince Harry and Meghan Markle visited Cardiff today. The pair left Paddington station on time but delays to the GWR train meant they arrived an hour late."

 

Sometimes I do feel sorry for GWR.

 

Geoff Endacott

[D854_Tiger]

If 8 minutes is too long, how long do you think it should take bearing in mind all the things the driver has to do when changing ends?

 

Can you list all the things the driver has to do from arrival to departure when changing ends?

Or are you commenting on something else you know nothing about?

 

The pre-engine start check list, the pre-taxi check list and the pre-take off check list, I don't know, but I do know it's been done quicker.

 

Then some reversals at Gloucester need twelve minutes in the timetable.

 

I'm sure there are all very good reasons why it must be so (I can even think of more than a few myself) but it all just goes to highlight how available diesel power is but one factor that determines journey times.

 

There are other factors, like those automatic doors, which I'm sure are going to prove far more useful over both the Cotswold routes than which version of diesel engine they have fitted.

 

I occasionally use the Worcester line and watching a five foot three female train manager cope with all those slam doors on a busy HST, at every shack, and you are watching someone earn every penny of their crust and bearing a safety critical responsibility to go with it.

 

I reckon her working life just a got a little bit easier at least.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Yes, Change-Over Stationary at Didcot is not allowed currently, the Change-Over occurs at South Moreton, East of Moreton Cutting.

 

Simon

 

 

Some video now on YouTube showing 800's and a 9-car 802 departing Didcot with the pans up.

Appears to have been a couple of days ago.

 

 

[D854_Tiger]

Yes the decision had been made and the draught timetable drawn up using the figures supplied by DaFT/Hitachi to ensure the timetable worked, guess what it doesnt work now because the 800s are so much slower point to point, not that some people will accept that fact!

 

I totally accept that point but, as yet, no one here has explained, in terms I could ever hope to understand, why, once the wires are up, this is going to somehow prevent a massive improvement in the level (and yes speed) of the overall service.

 

Had the electrification run to plan, I have no doubt the new trains would not only have been matching HST times but arriving early at the terminus, with some to spare, as well.

 

Then, one day, not that far in the future, I'm still sure they will do so.

 

The class 800 is under powered on diesel by design, the class 802 will (presumably) not be, because the DfT and Hitachi are designing horses for courses and, thus far, all that has been proven is that Frankie Dettori isn't much good at taking Epsom Derby winners over the jumps.

[andy stroud]

Unless that is you are a regular commuter between Stroud and Kemble (and there must be loads of those) that must endure an extra three or four minutes (presumably, I know not) because their HST has been replaced by an IET but then at least half of those regular commuters will be getting an IET, vice a class 150, and whichever way you want to write that up, it can't be as bad.

Well I live at Stroud and I'm fairly sceptical about the new service  with these trains. Don't know for sure yet, but it has been suggested that an hourly service of 1x 5 car is what will be happening. Sounds good on the face of it, but we already have an hourly service consisting of an HST alternating with Sprinter. This equates to an average of ten carriages every two hours which is the same capacity as the suggested class 800 service. As the new service will provide more direct trains to London, increased custom will mean overcrowding unless they provide more than five coaches on some trains. Currently, some of the HSTS are crowded by the time they reach Kemble.

[royaloak]

The pre-engine start check list, the pre-taxi check list and the pre-take off check list, I don't know, but I do know it's been done quicker.

 

Then some reversals at Gloucester need twelve minutes in the timetable.

 

I'm sure there are all very good reasons why it must be so (I can even think of more than a few myself) but it all just goes to highlight how available diesel power is but one factor that determines journey times.

 

There are other factors, like those automatic doors, which I'm sure are going to prove far more useful over both the Cotswold routes than which version of diesel engine they have fitted.

 

I occasionally use the Worcester line and watching a five foot three female train manager cope with all those slam doors on a busy HST, at every shack, and you are watching someone earn every penny of their crust and bearing a safety critical responsibility to go with it.

 

I reckon her working life just a got a little bit easier at least.

So the answer to my question is no you dont know.

[royaloak]

I totally accept that point but, as yet, no one here has explained, in terms I could ever hope to understand, why, once the wires are up, this is going to somehow prevent a massive improvement in the level (and yes speed) of the overall service.

In case you hadnt noticed the electrification has been massively cut back with many miles cancelled all together, that is what we are talking about, not 15 years in the future when/if everything that was supposed to be electrified has actually been done.

[royaloak]

Yes, Change-Over Stationary at Didcot is not allowed currently, the Change-Over occurs at South Moreton, East of Moreton Cutting.

 

Simon

The video link in post 2932 says otherwise.

[DavidB]

The video link in post 2932 says otherwise.

We were definitely on electric power from the platform at Didcot this morning, with speed rising to 116mph through Cholsey (earlier in the thread I reported 90mph through Cholsey on diesel power). Interestingly we then didn't exceed 120mph all the way to Reading, so the 8,000hp under the electric bonnet of a 2x5 set is clearly capable of bettering this morning's good performance if needed. After a shaky start, the performance geek in me is starting to warm to these rather sterile machines, although I still think the humble 387 gives the 800 a run for its money in a number of areas - it would be interesting to know the comparative costs for the two different products to understand which one is better value for money (I think I may be able to guess the answer).

[DavidB]

Yes, Change-Over Stationary at Didcot is not allowed currently, the Change-Over occurs at South Moreton, East of Moreton Cutting.

 

Simon

Presumably this will remain the case long-term for the Oxford/Cotswold Line 800 services using the Didcot avoider. I hadn't clocked that they are now in regular service north of Didcot - I was surprised to see one pull into Oxford bound for Great Malvern early on Tuesday morning. It would be good to know how they are performing on diesel power through the Cotswolds. Has anyone sampled one of them in day-to-day service?

 

David

[Glorious NSE]

So get on and complain!

Transport Focus say don't complain to us until you've contacted the operator, so that's done...

 

I do agree it's most likely to boil down to a NR issue and not a GWR one, so i'm interested in the response...

[Coryton]

Transport Focus say don't complain to us until you've contacted the operator, so that's done...

 

I do agree it's most likely to boil down to a NR issue and not a GWR one, so i'm interested in the response...

 

Last time I tried this sort of thing, you were supposed to jump through hoops with the operator and get some kind of confirmation that they had exhausted all their complaints mechanisms.

 

For some reason this didn't turn out to be easy.

 

It also seemed to be very much geared to complaints of the form "I was on train x and bad thing y happened", rather than more generic issues like this.

[HillsideDepot]

Posted on The IET & HST Appreciation Society facebook group (by someone who would know):
 

 

 

Tomorrow morning the 1045 Paddington - Swansea IET will attempt a record breaking run between Paddington and Reading. The aim is to do the 36 miles stop to stop in 20 minutes

[Glorious NSE]

Last time I tried this sort of thing, you were supposed to jump through hoops with the operator and get some kind of confirmation that they had exhausted all their complaints mechanisms.

 

For some reason this didn't turn out to be easy.

 

It also seemed to be very much geared to complaints of the form "I was on train x and bad thing y happened", rather than more generic issues like this.

That's my impression so far also...

[St. Simon]

The video link in post 2932 says otherwise.

Clearly, but my paperwork, which is the safety case for the change-over, says it is not allowed in passenger use at Didcot at this time and that we haven't provided facilities for it.

 

Simon

Edited January 18, 2018 by St. Simon

[4630]

Sounds like a ‘Please explain’ is required.

[St. Simon]

Presumably this will remain the case long-term for the Oxford/Cotswold Line 800 services using the Didcot avoider.

David

Yes, it will need modifying slightly, which I'll be doing the design for in a few weeks, but until the line to Oxford is wired, the Change-Over will be at South Moreton.

 

Sounds like a ‘Please explain’ is required.

Sorry, I can't reveal anymore, probably said too much already!

 

Simon

[jamesg]

Presumably this will remain the case long-term for the Oxford/Cotswold Line 800 services using the Didcot avoider. I hadn't clocked that they are now in regular service north of Didcot - I was surprised to see one pull into Oxford bound for Great Malvern early on Tuesday morning. It would be good to know how they are performing on diesel power through the Cotswolds. Has anyone sampled one of them in day-to-day service?

 

David

I saw different 800s on the 1P22 08:25 Worcester Foregate Street to Paddington and 1W14 06:25 Paddington to Great Malvern services this morning.  It looks like two diagrams over the Cotswold line have been worked by 800s each day this week, a turbo was used on 1P22 last week (this used to be a 180).

 

The 800s I saw were certainly running well on diesel power and RTT shows that they were on time for the diesel sections.  The afternoon 1W23, formed from 1P22 at Paddington, lost a lot of time on the electric sections and was cancelled at Evesham as a 'points failure' in order to form 1P33 back to Paddington on time.

[Ken.W]

It was a nine car 800/1 unit that was used on that test run (presumably because that's it for testing currently on the ECML and beyond). I don't know if the intention is to run 800/1s on that route but they will be down on power compared to the five car units. We don't know yet the extent those are up to or short of the task on that route.

We don't know yet if it's planed to use 5 or 9 car sets (or any at all at that speed!)

 

At a quick calculation though, the difference is only about 33 hp per car so fairly insignificant, and probably less so than the fact that's comparing the performance of the 800 running empty to that of an in service HST

[Ken.W]

Is that 20mph slower average journey speed, or maximum speed? One is more significant than the other.

 

On the climbs, possibly even more significant given the topography of the line. Either way, significant enough to put the future of the service in doubt

[Ken.W]

Three or four class 800 trains per day to Aberdeen and one to Inverness on routes that are about to otherwise become super HST operated.

 

So a small number of trains may be slower north of Edinburgh (though noting the London trains all make fewer stops than the internal services, so maybe not) but overall the PAX should experience a transformed service.

 

I don't deny the class 800 diesel power problem, just struggling to see how it's significant and is going to be any kind of a big deal, most especially for the PAX, who for the most part are only going to experience considerable improvement over their existing services. If indeed your average normal even notices the new trains, trust me, I've seen some try to get on steam charter trains and not notice the difference.

 

OK the new trains may present the timetable planners with a few headaches, here and there, but that's their job, so presumably a nice problem to have.

 

Ultimately the class 800 should and will be judged by their electric performance, not short bits of country end diesel running, or a few longer bits of diesel running just a few times a day.

 

Remembering that many times in the past, it has been proposed that the North of Edinburgh trains could (should) be a lot slower, as part of the XC franchise and to improve their usefulness, considering the largest proportion of the passengers don't go all the way to London and given that it's mainly been politics that keeps those trains the way they are.

 

For many years, the Inverness day train was the Clansman, via the WCML (even including via the West Midlands) and in no particular hurry and arguably a much more useful service.

 

So a few trains a day north of Edinburgh may (or should) be slower, too far from London to bother about as that seems to be the only timings that concern you, as long as the timings into London make up for it (if they do) it doesn't matter about earlier delays, even though you also say not all passengers are traveling to London?

 

Have you seen the passenger loadings on these trains you're commenting on? They're often actually the busiest trains on the route (including 'peak' times) and do in fact carry significant numbers of through London passengers, especially at holiday times as they're very popular with tourists and often fully booked. So much so in fact, that the Aberdeen / Inverness services are, south of Edinburgh, the only one's that we're advised not to travel on on our passes, and at certain Holiday times they're actually restricted from carry passengers between any stations south of Edinburgh.

The performance of the 800 to Inverness means that, far from the 'considerable improvements' in service passengers have been led to expect 'other options are being considered' (discussed more on the future of HSTs thread), or even, casting into doubt the future of the service.

These services are very popular, and suggestions to cut them have always drawn large opposition (and not just from politicians) but you would seem to be happy to see the Chieftain go the same way as the Clansman