Class 800 - Updates

[Joseph_Pestell]

It's always seemed very odd to put the kitchen at one end of the train. Necessary when there was the ban on passengers in a DVT but completely daft in this case.

 

And I totally agree with Gwiwer about the difference between trains running to Bristol/Cardiff and those going further afield. Catering barely necessary on the shorter journeys and better provided from a trolley or small catering area (in effect a fixed trolley) so as to maximise seating.

 

But on those longer journeys, lack of decent catering is going to discourage some passengers from taking the train. I am not saying that it needs to be old-fashioned full-on restaurant cars, but a larger buffet area with the possibility of serving at seat to at least one first class coach. So GWR really does need a different layout on the 802s to the 800s. And the 800s would be better reconfigured. Cost involved, of course, but lots more revenue from those extra seats.

[Bomag]

5 hours ago, HillsideDepot said:

 

Sure, IETs aren't to everybody's liking, but I remember how much effort we used to put into avoiding HSTs to get a loco-hauled train and find all this "HSTs are great" amusing. Whether the preference be HST over IET; class 50 and air-cons over HST; Western and Mk1s over Hoover and air-cons; steam over diesel, maybe what we all really want is an open wooden wagon with bench seats, as displayed at GWS Didcot!   

 

 

There is a differece between wanting a LH service because it was more 'fun' 30 years ago and wanting an HST today because it is more comfortable. On the 14th Feb I did Bristol TM to Paddington on a coach class TS, it was the least pleasent HST train ride I have had in a long time. However, it was still more pleasent than the IET service the day before.

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, HillsideDepot said:

 

More than that, GWR took the decision that, from a passenger point of view, an 802 should look just like an 800, including the catering capability. I've had conversations with the managers concerned who stated that well before the first 802 was delivered.

 

At one time, on this very thread, there was great doubt about the ability to serve Pullman meals on IET's but now GWR is advertising the facility widely on its Twitter feed, even celebrating St David's day with a special Welsh Breakfast.

 

Sure, IETs aren't to everybody's liking, but I remember how much effort we used to put into avoiding HSTs to get a loco-hauled train and find all this "HSTs are great" amusing. Whether the preference be HST over IET; class 50 and air-cons over HST; Western and Mk1s over Hoover and air-cons; steam over diesel, maybe what we all really want is an open wooden wagon with bench seats, as displayed at GWS Didcot!   

 

Like them or not, 802107 and 8 were on Acceptance Trials late last week, with 802110 arriving at North Pole earlier in the week. 43002 has had its front smartened up, possibly in preparation for whatever GWR have planned to mark the end of the HSTs high-speed reign. In other words, we're very nearly at the end of the transition.

I think you're spot on although speaking to some GW staff they aren't particularly impressed by the 'kitchen' area but they know they have to work with it and they no doubt will in order to offer the desired level and quality of service.  The riding issue is probably my biggest complaint with these trains (or rather the 800s thus far) and on some occasions it has been so bad that if I had been in one of my past jobs I would have been on to Control very soon after I alighted to ask for the set to be taken out for examination on arrival at destination. 

 

I think the big problem for us older folk is that the HSTs came with a major 'wow!!' factor which these trains lack - no major step forward in speed and not many steps forward in onboard facilities plus what many see as a step backwards with the introduction of trolley based catering  (note how quickly those long queues at the buffet counter are forgiven and forgotten ).  But as you say many people did not like HSTs when they first arrived and to be honest I don't like the latest GWR interior trim, with its high seatbacks, on them anyway so I see some aspects of the 80Xs as an improvement.

 

I think the Standard Class 'reintroduce a buffet' idea is going to be a non starter because the only means I see of doing it is to rebuild one of the vehicles.  The existing doorway through to the staff area in the DTF is hardly suitable, or wide enough, for any sort of counter arrangement and there is really nowhere for those arriving to queue while those who have been served with hot beverages can safely return towards their seats.  In fact even to provide a counter would involve some significant mods to the DTF and inevitably a reduction in 1st Class seating - which is already in short supply on some services.  And all of that is before you realise it would be impossible on any Pullman catering services or you address the fact that people paying a large amount of money to sit in 1st Class won't take kindly to be in the midst of a scrum trying to get to, or away from, the counter.  The only logical method I can see of offering such things as hot bacon rolls is for a member of staff to take an order, return to the kitchen area - now with extra staff - to hand in the order and return with the goods once they are ready.  Quite how that can be done over the length of 9 loaded cars is a bit mind boggling  but it looks like the only way.  And how it would be done on a train formed 2x5  I suspect that staffing costs (which have already increased) would be against it.

[Coryton]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

It's always seemed very odd to put the kitchen at one end of the train. Necessary when there was the ban on passengers in a DVT but completely daft in this case.

 

It gives you the full width of the train to work with, and if the intention is for it to only serve passengers in first class coaches then it's in a sensible place.

 

Pendolinos also have the kitchen at one end - the difference is that there is also a little serving area for standard class.

[Coryton]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

 The only logical method I can see of offering such things as hot bacon rolls is for a member of staff to take an order, return to the kitchen area - now with extra staff - to hand in the order and return with the goods once they are ready.  Quite how that can be done over the length of 9 loaded cars is a bit mind boggling  but it looks like the only way.  And how it would be done on a train formed 2x5  I suspect that staffing costs (which have already increased) would be against it.

 

Trolley comes down the train towards the kitchen taking orders, then goes back the other handing out deliveries as it goes? Slightly more practical perhaps, but not very.

 

Maybe people can order on their phones?

 

To be honest, having the trolley make an appearance in under an hour would be a good start.

 

Back in the days of the Travelling Chef there was some kind of delay once and they told me to go back to my seat and they would bring me my breakfast when it was ready, which they did even though I was in coach A.

[Joseph_Pestell]

14 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

It gives you the full width of the train to work with, and if the intention is for it to only serve passengers in first class coaches then it's in a sensible place.

 

Pendolinos also have the kitchen at one end - the difference is that there is also a little serving area for standard class.

 

I take your point about using the full width of the coach. But trains have managed without this for a very long time and in an era where the cooking equipment was rather more bulky.

 

From a service point of view, it has to be better for the kitchen/servery to be in the middle of the part of the train that you are serving.

[Zomboid]

40 minutes ago, Coryton said:

Maybe people can order on their phones?

I'm sure I've seen a service like that on a train somewhere, but I could be confusing it with something what.

 

The reality is that it's the kind of thing that would probably work quite well with most people, but would be fatally flawed on a crush loaded train - but then the buffet car is no good then either. You can do it at McDonalds these days, and Wetherspoons. So why not on a train?

 

It works pretty well on XC where you order hot stuff as the trolley passes and they bring it to you a few minutes later - on those rare XC trains that actually carry enough seats for the number of passengers. That's a different issue, but one which would be made worse by reinstalling a buffet car.

 

The key is enabling people to place an order at a time that suits them rather than playing the lottery of "when will a trolley come by?", and the fact is that most people have hugely powerful computer devices in their pockets which can be connected to the train WiFi and used for that purpose.

[Reorte]

Just as long as it's an optional extra rather than a necessity for getting something to eat or drink.

[Gwiwer]

Quote

wow factor

 

When HSTs were new there were several wow factors. Some were liked and some not. 

 

Wow - look at that thing go!  Main line speeds increased from 100mph at best to 125mph overnight with massive cuts in journey times. 

 

Wow - look how fast we can get there!  Kings Cross - Edinburgh in around 4½ hours and Paddington - Penzance in 5 with a headline 4h 30m fastest train. 

 

Wow - the buffet is open through Cornwall now. (It used to be detached / attached at Plymouth)

 

Wow - those brakes smell AWFUL. 

 

Headline journey times have slowed in many cases. Paddington - Penzance is now typically closer to six hours than five though the early morning up is still a 4h 55m booking.  A straight five hours should be possible. 

 

The IET fleet has suffered from the indecision and poor decision-making of the GWR electrification project and now has to do something it wasn’t designed for. The ECML fleet still cannot work over half the route for various rather significant and expensive reasons. 

 

The current GWR HST seating isn’t the best but when the vehicle rides as it should the quality can make up for the ultra-high seat backs. The IET seating is too hard for the personal comfort of some (many?)  but the size and shape of the seats is an improvement. 

 

And they remain a DMU with underfloor engines. Not as intrusive as the Voyager units but still noticeable. 

 

They also go no faster than what they are replacing and in some places struggle to go fast enough to even keep to the same timings. It has yet to be proven that they will manage Slochd or Druimuachdar fully laden and on a typically damp Highland rail. They are also not reliably Dawlish-proof. 

 

We are, in my opinion, going backwards in attempting to go forwards. 

 

Edited March 4, 2019 by Gwiwer

[nightstar.train]

8 hours ago, dibber25 said:

Ah, Roger Ford's old 'Modern Railways' 50p piece test. Stand a 50p piece on edge, on the table and time how long it took to fall over. (CJL)

 

Easier in the old old days when 50ps were much thicker. 

 

7 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

It's always seemed very odd to put the kitchen at one end of the train. Necessary when there was the ban on passengers in a DVT but completely daft in this case.

 

Its because of crash worthiness. The regulations say you can’t have any passengers in the front 1/3rd of the first coach of a train going 125mph+. So you have to have an empty 1/3rd at each end of the train. So it becomes the logical place to put a kitchen to feed first class at seat meals and bike stowage at the other end. Of course the Pendolinos still have a shop in the middle of third (sorry, standard) class, so things are better than on an IEP. 

 

Edit: apparently this is my 500th post. I’d like to thank my family, the mods, Andy Y.....

Edited March 4, 2019 by nightstar.train

[locoholic]

1 hour ago, Gwiwer said:

 

When HSTs were new there were several wow factors. Some were liked and some not. 

 

Wow - look at that thing go!  Main line speeds increased from 100mph at best to 125mph overnight with massive cuts in journey times. 

 

Wow - look how fast we can get there!  Kings Cross - Edinburgh in around 4½ hours and Paddington - Penzance in 5 with a headline 4h 30m fastest train. 

 

Wow - the buffet is open through Cornwall now. (It used to be detached / attached at Plymouth)

 

Wow - those brakes smell AWFUL. 

 

Headline journey times have slowed in many cases. Paddington - Penzance is now typically closer to six hours than five though the early morning up is still a 4h 55m booking.  A straight five hours should be possible. 

 

The IET fleet has suffered from the indecision and poor decision-making of the GWR electrification project and now has to do something it wasn’t designed for. The ECML fleet still cannot work over half the route for various rather significant and expensive reasons. 

 

The current GWR HST seating isn’t the best but when the vehicle rides as it should the quality can make up for the ultra-high seat backs. The IET seating is too hard for the personal comfort of some (many?)  but the size and shape of the seats is an improvement. 

 

And they remain a DMU with underfloor engines. Not as intrusive as the Voyager units but still noticeable. 

 

They also go no faster than what they are replacing and in some places struggle to go fast enough to even keep to the same timings. It has yet to be proven that they will manage Slochd or Druimuachdar fully laden and on a typically damp Highland rail. They are also not reliably Dawlish-proof. 

 

We are, in my opinion, going backwards in attempting to go forwards. 

 

There was another "Wow": how smooth the ride was. On my first HST journey I didn't notice for a while that the train had started moving.

 

The Wow for the Class 800s is "Wow, these trains are disappointingly bad value for money".

[jamesg]

Wow, the Class 800s are very quiet (I have heard anecdotally that they are too quiet for track workers).

 

Wow, they're louder on electric (as a passenger, this seems to be rail noise).

 

I find the lack of noise is the most 'stand out' feature of the 800s, much quieter than any other DMU class.

[Coryton]

1 hour ago, nightstar.train said:

Its because of crash worthiness. The regulations say you can’t have any passengers in the front 1/3rd of the first coach of a train going 125mph+. So you have to have an empty 1/3rd at each end of the train. So it becomes the logical place to put a kitchen to feed first class at seat meals and bike stowage at the other end. Of course the Pendolinos still have a shop in the middle of third (sorry, standard) class, so things are better than on an IEP. 

 

 

I don't know about Pendolinos, but on an 800 the area taken up by the kitchen in the first class driving car seems to have passenger accommodation in the second class driving cars.

 

A second class driving car has passenger doors at both ends of the coach - in the first class cars the kitchen is between the doors. The "plated over" windows in the kitchen are also a bit of a clue.

So I don't think you can explain the kitchen placement on an 800 by safety requirements.

 

(On an 800 cycle accommodation (such as there is) consists of 'cupboards' in vestibules - again in passenger accommodation.)

[Coryton]

8 minutes ago, jamesg said:

Wow, the Class 800s are very quiet (I have heard anecdotally that they are too quiet for track workers).

 

Wow, they're louder on electric (as a passenger, this seems to be rail noise).

 

I find the lack of noise is the most 'stand out' feature of the 800s, much quieter than any other DMU class.

 

From the outside I don't find the diesel engines (or generator units) particularly quiet.

 

From the inside I have been very impressed with how little engine sound there is. (And yes, this is from a motor not a trailer coach). Apart from accelerating at low speeds I find it very hard to hear them.

[cunningduck]

Well I had my first experience of an 800 last week from Bristol to Paddington. Overall I was very impressed, I couldn’t tell whether it was running on diesel or electric (much as that embarrasses me!), the seat was comfy, luggage space adequate, trolley  sufficient (and appeared 3 times over the journey), and it rode fairly well!

 

I rate it as better than an HST because it didn’t lurch sickeningly as it started, didn’t have random drafts from the vestibules, had nice toilets and didn’t make me jump out of my skin every time another train passes...

[eastwestdivide]

15 hours ago, Zomboid said:

16 hours ago, Coryton said:

Maybe people can order on their phones?

I'm sure I've seen a service like that on a train somewhere, but I could be confusing it with something what.

Austrian Railjets etc offer that in first class - see my trip report here

[Afroal05]

11 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Headline journey times have slowed in many cases. Paddington - Penzance is now typically closer to six hours than five though the early morning up is still a 4h 55m booking.  A straight five hours should be possible. 

 

 

I think that's more to do with putting more stops into some services, at present GWR don't have any non stop runs to Swindon or Chippenham which they've historically had (although they are on the horizon when the timetable goes full IET). Certainly when it comes to services west of Plymouth I think the opinion is it's better to provide more services to intermediate stations than save a few minutes for a headline time.

 

11 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

They also go no faster than what they are replacing and in some places struggle to go fast enough to even keep to the same timings. It has yet to be proven that they will manage Slochd or Druimuachdar fully laden and on a typically damp Highland rail. They are also not reliably Dawlish-proof. 

 

They go no faster on diesel. True within the Thames Valley they can struggle to get above about 120mph on diesel but they should all be on electric within the 125mph sections. Their performance against HSTs there is excellent and they accelerate considerably faster. Some services between Swindon and Bristol Parkway when on the wires can make up 7 minutes and have to sit at Parkway/Swindon awaiting departure time. GWR's PPM and right time figures have improved with IETs running on HST timings. Clearly that won't be the case for much longer as the timetable will be recast reflecting the IETs timings.

 

I don't think there have been any major issues with 802s slipping about on Hemerdon either but I take your point that in inclement weather in the Highlands they are as yet unproven.

[nightstar.train]

12 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 They also go no faster than what they are replacing and in some places struggle to go fast enough to even keep to the same timings. It has yet to be proven that they will manage Slochd or Druimuachdar fully laden and on a typically damp Highland rail. They are also not reliably Dawlish-proof. 

 

 

It was rumoured on several forums when the IETs went on a test up to Inverness that Network Rail were very unimpressed. So unimpressed that they were considering banning them. The Highland main line is pretty congested, long single track sections with loops every so often. If trains don’t reach those loops as scheduled the knock on is severe. One post I read said that the IEP was 20 minutes slower than an HST on the run, and was really struggling to get over Slochd, nowhere near line speed. 

[Coryton]

3 minutes ago, nightstar.train said:

 

It was rumoured on several forums when the IETs went on a test up to Inverness that Network Rail were very unimpressed. So unimpressed that they were considering banning them. The Highland main line is pretty congested, long single track sections with loops every so often. If trains don’t reach those loops as scheduled the knock on is severe. One post I read said that the IEP was 20 minutes slower than an HST on the run, and was really struggling to get over Slochd, nowhere near line speed. 

 

Simple solution - keep a few pairs of HST power cars, fit them with suitable couplers and systems to run them in multiple with an IET, add them on between Inverness and Edinburgh. Plenty of power!

 

(This is not intended as a serious solution. Though not a million miles from the Holyhead Pendolino drags I suppose).

[RJS1977]

10 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

I don't know about Pendolinos, but on an 800 the area taken up by the kitchen in the first class driving car seems to have passenger accommodation in the second class driving cars.

 

A second class driving car has passenger doors at both ends of the coach - in the first class cars the kitchen is between the doors. The "plated over" windows in the kitchen are also a bit of a clue.

So I don't think you can explain the kitchen placement on an 800 by safety requirements.

 

(On an 800 cycle accommodation (such as there is) consists of 'cupboards' in vestibules - again in passenger accommodation.)

 

And Adelantes and Voyagers have passenger accommodation for the full length of the end vehicles (excepting the cab of course).

[jim.snowdon]

20 minutes ago, nightstar.train said:

 

It was rumoured on several forums when the IETs went on a test up to Inverness that Network Rail were very unimpressed. So unimpressed that they were considering banning them. The Highland main line is pretty congested, long single track sections with loops every so often. If trains don’t reach those loops as scheduled the knock on is severe. One post I read said that the IEP was 20 minutes slower than an HST on the run, and was really struggling to get over Slochd, nowhere near line speed. 

Whilst NR might have been unimpressed, because of their requirement to operate as an open-access railway, I am not certain that it would be within their powers to ban them solely on the grounds of lack of performance, so long as they met all the criteria for safe operation. However, if their lack of performance resulted in other train operators over the same route being disadvantaged by way of increased journey times or loss of timetable paths, then I would expect the ORR, as the railway's regulator, to have the necessary powers.

21 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

Simple solution - keep a few pairs of HST power cars, fit them with suitable couplers and systems to run them in multiple with an IET, add them on between Inverness and Edinburgh. Plenty of power!

 

(This is not intended as a serious solution. Though not a million miles from the Holyhead Pendolino drags I suppose).

Wasn't this essentially part of the whole principle behind the choice of 91 + Mk4 operation for the ECML in the first place, as well as original suggestions for the IET being a purely electric train with diesel haulage beyond the wires? (Shades of the Southern's operations to Weymouth before the third rail was extended.)

 

Jim

[Joseph_Pestell]

I know that I will get told off again for this, but.....

 

Are there really that many passengers who travel through from Kings Cross and other ECML stations to the Highlands? It seems such a waste to me to have units such as 802s climbing slowly through the Highlands when they could be better deployed further south. Would it really discourage so many passengers if they had to change at Waverley, a very convenient station to change at with no overbridges or subways to tackle?

[royaloak]

On 01/03/2019 at 15:14, eastwestdivide said:

... then the contract needs rewriting and the people who agreed the original contract need a word in their ears?

The standing joke is the DaFT/GWR persons who wrote and agreed the contracts now work for Hitachi simply because of the way the contract favours Hitachi.

 

Oh, for information they dont, its a joke.

Edited March 5, 2019 by royaloak

[royaloak]

On 01/03/2019 at 21:49, caradoc said:

 

Which corresponds to the point I was trying to make !!!!! If the set booked as per diagram is not ready any other set of the right type already prepared and fit to complete the diagram can and should be used to get the ECS away on time.

 

When I was responsible (in the joined-up railway days) for allocating scores of EMUs and DMUs to diagrams, the only ones we specified to the depots were those due maintenance or repair; They were free to use all the other sets as they saw fit, as long as Control knew what was going where.

 

 

Hitachi do like to move units about when allocating to diagrams, it gives them something to do, normally the first ones on are the first ones off etc, but on this occasion they decided the last one on would be the first one off, several phone calls were made but the decision stood and when, unsurprisingly, the unit wasnt ready the train was cancelled.

[royaloak]

On 02/03/2019 at 14:05, Gwiwer said:

Only because of the tunnel works. The reservation system has it as IET. 

All reservations are for IET whether the train is booked one or not, hence HST coaches D and E being changed to H and J, the reservations have been like that for months.

Edited March 5, 2019 by royaloak
more info