Class 800 - Updates

[Joseph_Pestell]

7 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

That kind of solution only really works on paper. Whilst putting up wires is not cheap, connecting to the grid is even more costly, and discontinuous electrification is likely to require more connections than a conventional approach.

 

There are new technologies coming along which might change that by allowing a rail connection at a lower (ie cheaper) voltage, but as yet they're not proven to the level that you'd want to rely on for building the business case to electrify Exeter - Plymouth.

 

I had considered the grid connection issue and it would need careful planning in that respect. But worth considering???

[Zomboid]

I don't know the distances involved in the areas concerned. I'd guess that for an island of electrification with conventional grid connections, it's probably not worth it for less than about 50 route miles.

 

Mind you, if Oxford is too far, then South Devon stands no hope.

[Richard E]

And a bit more from the ECML side of things. I assume, as LNER are shown as the operator on RTT, that these are training runs for the crews. Interiors are complete and the sets look ready for public service.

 

800104 working Leeds to Kings Cross as 5Q31 stopping briefly at platform 3 at about 13:10:

 

 

800109 about to depart from platform 2 at Peterborough for York at 13:26 running as 5Q15. It had arrived from Retford on the juice and departed on the juice having switched the pantographs so that pick up was from the leading pan:

 

 

Inboth instances platform staff had to ask people to stand back from the train despite announcements, especially for the up set, that they were not for public use.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Richard E

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

I don't know the distances involved in the areas concerned. I'd guess that for an island of electrification with conventional grid connections, it's probably not worth it for less than about 50 route miles.

 

Mind you, if Oxford is too far, then South Devon stands no hope.

At the moment, it seems more likely that further electrification is a dead duck for so long as (a) Government cannot think beyond winning the next election (and electric trains don't win many votes) and (b) electrification is seen as horrendously expensive (and to a fair extent it is due to the added cost of bringing the signalling system up to date so far as proofing against electric traction). It might succeed if there was a proper long term strategy for the country's railways and a government that was willing to maintain a commitment to stick to it. That will not happen any time soon with the right vs. left nature of British politics.

 

Jim

[iands]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I had considered the grid connection issue and it would need careful planning in that respect. But worth considering???

It probably has been considered at some stage, but as it hasn't happened we can only assume it has been dismissed as unworkable or can't meet the business case, or both.

[Joseph_Pestell]

26 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

At the moment, it seems more likely that further electrification is a dead duck for so long as (a) Government cannot think beyond winning the next election (and electric trains don't win many votes) and (b) electrification is seen as horrendously expensive (and to a fair extent it is due to the added cost of bringing the signalling system up to date so far as proofing against electric traction). It might succeed if there was a proper long term strategy for the country's railways and a government that was willing to maintain a commitment to stick to it. That will not happen any time soon with the right vs. left nature of British politics.

 

Jim

 

Quite a lot of marginal constituencies in that part of the South West. It does not need a lot of votes to make a difference.

[iands]

2 hours ago, Richard E said:

And a bit more from the ECML side of things. I assume, as LNER are shown as the operator on RTT, that these are training runs for the crews. Interiors are complete and the sets look ready for public service.

 

800104 working Leeds to Kings Cross as 5Q31 stopping briefly at platform 3 at about 13:10:

 

 

800109 about to depart from platform 2 at Peterborough for York at 13:26 running as 5Q15. It had arrived from Retford on the juice and departed on the juice having switched the pantographs so that pick up was from the leading pan:

 

 

Inboth instances platform staff had to ask people to stand back from the train despite announcements, especially for the up set, that they were not for public use.

Hi Richard, did you notice if anything had been done to the jumper cables between each coach, i.e. any design changes to stop people using them as ladders?

[Wild Boar Fell]

39 minutes ago, iands said:

Hi Richard, did you notice if anything had been done to the jumper cables between each coach, i.e. any design changes to stop people using them as ladders?

 

A press release the other week about these being accepted by LNER said the mod would be rolled out over the 1st year in service.

[31A]

2 hours ago, Richard E said:

And a bit more from the ECML side of things. I assume, as LNER are shown as the operator on RTT, that these are training runs for the crews. Interiors are complete and the sets look ready for public service.

 

800104 working Leeds to Kings Cross as 5Q31 stopping briefly at platform 3 at about 13:10:

 

800109 about to depart from platform 2 at Peterborough for York at 13:26 running as 5Q15. It had arrived from Retford on the juice and departed on the juice having switched the pantographs so that pick up was from the leading pan:

 

Inboth instances platform staff had to ask people to stand back from the train despite announcements, especially for the up set, that they were not for public use.

 

800109 at York this afternoon, having arrived from Peterborough as 5Q15 as per Richard's post and prior to leaving as 5Q16 1610 York-King's Cross.  A contrast in "LNER" motive power!

 

 

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Quite a lot of marginal constituencies in that part of the South West. It does not need a lot of votes to make a difference.

Albeit marginal between the yellow and blue teams. The red hardly rate. 

[royaloak]

9 hours ago, Afroal05 said:

Based on how late running IETs can be seen to claw back time when the line ahead is fairly clear then whether or not an HST can hold them over 60 appears to be of little consequence. Also is your assertion on acceleration based on diesel vs diesel? Are they faster with the pan up or is an HST better regardless? (I don't know, that's a genuine question).

 

Its diesel V diesel, on electric they are, well, electric, there is no comparison.

 

Overall an 802 is roughly the equivalent of a HST with notch 5 locked out on one power car.

[Richard E]

5 hours ago, iands said:

Hi Richard, did you notice if anything had been done to the jumper cables between each coach, i.e. any design changes to stop people using them as ladders?

 

Wild Boar Fell has given the official line. As it happens I did look at it and nothing as yet - I wasn't expecting any visible change for a while.

 

As an aside Hull Trains are doing some route learning between Hull and Peterborough with a short formed First Great Western liveried HST at the moment as well so we are seeing some interesting stock in Peterborough.

 

31A - I miss that station but not the commute to get there ...

[Zomboid]

10 hours ago, royaloak said:

Its diesel V diesel, on electric they are, well, electric, there is no comparison.

 

Overall an 802 is roughly the equivalent of a HST with notch 5 locked out on one power car.

What does that mean in terms that those of us who have never been in the pointy end of either train might recognise? One PC at 100% and the other at 80%? So about 90% of HST performance?

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

What does that mean in terms that those of us who have never been in the pointy end of either train might recognise? One PC at 100% and the other at 80%? So about 90% of HST performance?

 

As I understand it, 'notch 5' represents the furthest the throttle will open out to - so what royaloak is saying that an 802 working flat out is only as good as an HST set with one power car unable to go 'full throttle'

 

Another way to think of it is that an 802 is like not having 6th gear available in your 6 speed motor car - if you were on a derestricted German autobahn such a measure would affect top speed you could travel at.

[Afroal05]

13 hours ago, royaloak said:

Its diesel V diesel, on electric they are, well, electric, there is no comparison.

 

Overall an 802 is roughly the equivalent of a HST with notch 5 locked out on one power car.

 

So my original statement to which you took umbrage is not entirely incorrect. I asserted they were faster on electric and equal on diesel.

 

What I hadn't previously twigged is that a 10 car 802 is 200 tonnes heavier than an HST!

[phil-b259]

12 minutes ago, Afroal05 said:

 

So my original statement to which you took umbrage is not entirely incorrect. I asserted they were faster on electric and equal on diesel.

 

What I hadn't previously twigged is that a 10 car 802 is 200 tonnes heavier than an HST!

 

Sorry, but royal oak is still entitled to take partial umbridge at you.

 

In DIESEL mode an 802 at full pelt is the equivalent of a HST with one power car NOT running at full power!

 

If  a 802 was 'equal' on diesel then an 802 going flat out would be the same as an HST with BOTH power cars running in notch 5!

 

You can dance round it as much as you like but the brutal truth is that the 802s ARE INFERIOR to an HST on diesel power - its just a question of how much worse.

 

[Afroal05]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Sorry, but royal oak is still entitled to take partial umbridge at you.

 

In DIESEL mode an 802 at full pelt is the equivalent of a HST with one power car NOT running at full power!

 

If  a 802 was 'equal' on diesel then an 802 going flat out would be the same as an HST with BOTH power cars running in notch 5!

 

You can dance round it as much as you like but the brutal truth is that the 802s ARE INFERIOR to an HST on diesel power - its just a question of how much worse.

 

 

That's paraphrasing slightly. 

In the context of performance up a hill in Devon royaloak says that 10 cars of 802 wide open would only match the performance of an HST with one power car not on full power.

 

My comments were on the broader network, not specifically on performance West of Exeter where, granted, 802 performance was described to me by an 802 driver trainer at Plymouth as 'equal'.

His fuller comments were: 'HSTs hold better speed up steep hills but they are slower than IETs on acceleration in diesel mode. In diesel an IET will get up to 40 or 50 quicker than an HST but then the acceleration slows down. In electric they go faster than anything except a 377.'

 

I do disagree with the sentiment that they are inferior on diesel power. I never said they were better, nor do I wish to be misconstrued as having ever claimed that. The notion that they are inferior would suggest they simply cannot keep up but as IET services to both the West of England and to Bristol/South Wales are not running significantly late for no reason I would be inclined to say that they are equal-on-diesel-when-not-going-up-a-steep-hill. I hope there are enough caveats there.

[phil-b259]

34 minutes ago, Afroal05 said:

 

That's paraphrasing slightly. 

In the context of performance up a hill in Devon royaloak says that 10 cars of 802 wide open would only match the performance of an HST with one power car not on full power.

 

My comments were on the broader network, not specifically on performance West of Exeter where, granted, 802 performance was described to me by an 802 driver trainer at Plymouth as 'equal'.

His fuller comments were: 'HSTs hold better speed up steep hills but they are slower than IETs on acceleration in diesel mode. In diesel an IET will get up to 40 or 50 quicker than an HST but then the acceleration slows down. In electric they go faster than anything except a 377.'

 

I do disagree with the sentiment that they are inferior on diesel power. I never said they were better, nor do I wish to be misconstrued as having ever claimed that. The notion that they are inferior would suggest they simply cannot keep up but as IET services to both the West of England and to Bristol/South Wales are not running significantly late for no reason I would be inclined to say that they are equal-on-diesel-when-not-going-up-a-steep-hill. I hope there are enough caveats there.

 

Running late where exactly?

 

One of the main reasons that 802s are able to match the 'end to end(ish)' journey times is that things like shorter station dwell times (thanks to power operated doors), faster acceleration at slower speeds and under electric power where available, plus station dwell times having been extended over the past few years means that most late running in Devon / Cornwall can be eliminated by the time the train finally reaches Paddington or Plymouth. As such the train is registered as arriving 'on time' - but as ever that doesn't tell the whole story (and is why regular users are thoroughly fed up with Government / TOC claims that everything is running fine most of the time).

 

If however trains are consistently late due to station calls at Totnes (as is I believe the case with the 802)s than that does prove the 802s are inferior on diesel from a technical perspective and no amount of carefully worded statements will change that fundamental fact.

 

To most people it is only right that a newer model is the same or better than what it previously replaced - not a mixture of better and worse. The HST replacement programme (which is what the IETs started life as) has been bungled from the very beaning thanks to the idiots in the DfT trying to do things they were not competent to do and the 800s / 802s in diesel mode will forever be compromised by that.

Edited March 6, 2019 by phil-b259

[Afroal05]

39 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Running late where exactly?

 

One of the main reasons that 802s are able to match the 'end to end(ish)' journey times is that things like shorter station dwell times (thanks to power operated doors), faster acceleration at slower speeds and under electric power where available, plus station dwell times having been extended over the past few years means that most late running in Devon / Cornwall can be eliminated by the time the train finally reaches Paddington or Plymouth. As such the train is registered as arriving 'on time' - but as ever that doesn't tell the whole story (and is why regular users are thoroughly fed up with Government / TOC claims that everything is running fine most of the time).

 

If however trains are consistently late due to station calls at Totnes (as is I believe the case with the 802)s than that does prove the 802s are inferior on diesel from a technical perspective and no amount of carefully worded statements will change that fundamental fact.

 

To most people it is only right that a newer model is the same or better than what it previously replaced - not a mixture of better and worse. The HST replacement programme (which is what the IETs started life as) has been bungled from the very beaning thanks to the idiots in the DfT trying to do things they were not competent to do and the 800s / 802s in diesel mode will forever be compromised by that.

 

Running late anywhere where they are running under diesel power. I wasn't being so specific as to single out West of England services in my thoughts on IET diesel performance.

 

I understand the concept of pathing and performance timings, PPM and adding minutes into schedules and I monitor train performance along its route, not just end to end. I'm just not of the opinion that those minutes in the schedule are masking shoddy performance by IETs. Once Whiteball/Marley is over I will pay attention more consistently to trains at Totnes to observe them losing time.

 

I also whole heartedly agree that a newer model should indeed be better than what it replaces and that this is the culmination of a process that began as HST2. I have at no point tried to maintain that they are the best thing since sliced bread on diesel mode or that they are in fact a worthy replacement to the HST.

[phil-b259]

1 minute ago, Afroal05 said:

 

 Once Whiteball/Marley is over I will pay attention more consistently to trains at Totnes to observe them losing time.

 

 

The thing about Totnes is it sits at the bottom of a dip between two climbs - hence it has always been the case that if a HST with one power car out was due to stop, the stop was cancelled so as to let it hit the bottom of the climb at a higher speed.

 

Therefore if the 802s not scheduled to stop at Totnes it won't make much difference - just as with the single engined HST rake, the higher speed run up to the climb helps keep the speed at the top pretty much to what it should be using an HST with both power cars working.

 

If the 802 stops at Totnes though, its lack of power compared to a HST shows.....

 

However to an extent the issues are not significant on the GWR network compared to the intended use of 800s north of Edinburgh.

 

The Highland main line has far more of those 'stations in dips' situation than on the GWR, plus quite a few of them are passing places on single track where the 'take a run at it' type of thing seen at Totnes cannot be done... A trail run towards the end of last year showed that the Scotrail timetable would be decimated due to the inability of the 800 to come close to matching HST performance of hilly terrain - an while the 802s might be better than the 800s its still not a given that they would be good enough for the route to Inverness.

[The Stationmaster]

There is a very simple answer to all this debate about the performance of 902 units in the West of England because while we have 'Royal Oak's ' practical view the crunch question is whether or not these units can maintain HST point-to-point timings in average rail/running conditions during average weather conditions with average passenger loadings.  Put more simply if an HST can consistently maintain its booked point-to-point times that means it is meeting those average expectations - can an 802 do the same?

 

So the answer will have to come from accurate timing by folk who know what they're doing - Traction Inspectors with stop watches ought to be able to come up with some answers as should experienced timers who know where the timing points are (although the one I knew who did work for FGW/GWR is now retired).  Certainly at least one of those who has been involved in the Practice & Performance column of 'The Railway Magazine' would be able to do it and lives in the area (as it happens we were, unbeknown to each other, timing one of the initial Class 800 public runs) as can another involved with that column.  The tools and people are out there so establishing the facts should not be difficult.

[Gwiwer]

There have been instances of 800s arriving at Newton Abbot and Exeter with engines shut down following a Dawlish carriage-wash. I think there was a comment somewhere to the effect that 802s were not (yet) similarly troubled because something is a bit different. 

 

But it seems that either way the 80x family is not quite as Dawlish-resistant as had been hoped. And as is apparently written into the deal with Hitachi 

[jamie92208]

13 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

There have been instances of 800s arriving at Newton Abbot and Exeter with engines shut down following a Dawlish carriage-wash. I think there was a comment somewhere to the effect that 802s were not (yet) similarly troubled because something is a bit different. 

 

But it seems that either way the 80x family is not quite as Dawlish-resistant as had been hoped. And as is apparently written into the deal with Hitachi 

I think Royal Oak alluded to this yesterday saying a) some engines can be out by Newton Abbott and b) there can be problems with the doors due to alt water spray.

 

Jamie

[Mallard60022]

Saw 800107 at Retford this morning, on electric. It stopped briefly at P2 before going north. Very impressive acceleration, and I mean impressive....like sh## off a shovel in fact; far quicker than the 225 sets but I suppose it was empty. Beautifully clean and looking very smart indeed. I believe they are due to start service around here very soon. I look forward to a short trip to Donny or York on one of those if they are that quick in service.

Phil

[The Stationmaster]

A very non-scientific snapshot of the Class 80X trains I saw today -

 

Trains formed 2x5 incorrectly marshalled - c.60+% of all those I saw (and therefore not counted in the next category because they were obviously already wrong)

Trains running in reverse formation (either 9 car or 2x5 car correctly marshalled) - at least 50%, and probably more of all those I saw