Possible Bachmann J21

[Derekstuart]

DJM Dave

 

What costs do HMRC want quarterly up front?

I take it that you mean VAT? You can pay VAT when the money changes hands- such as on sending a deposit, OR at the official tax date- such as when the model is actually shipped. Either system is valid as long as you register as such with HMRC.

 

As for profits- this is 8 months behind the date of the end of the year in which you make the profit. You do not make the profit at the point deposits are handed over but at the point where the transaction is concluded- ie handing over the shipment, by which time the full payment has been received.

 

I have no idea about payments to factories in China, but would expect a small company/group to pay up front whereas Hornby-Bachmann types pay quarterly.

 

 

Perhaps the orgranisers could look at the DCK/Realtrack model. Mr Petty seems to have pulled off what most people described as impossible- and clearly made profit as he had a second run at them.

[DJM Dave]

DJM Dave

 

What costs do HMRC want quarterly up front?

I take it that you mean VAT? You can pay VAT when the money changes hands- such as on sending a deposit, OR at the official tax date- such as when the model is actually shipped. Either system is valid as long as you register as such with HMRC.

 

As for profits- this is 8 months behind the date of the end of the year in which you make the profit. You do not make the profit at the point deposits are handed over but at the point where the transaction is concluded- ie handing over the shipment, by which time the full payment has been received.

 

I have no idea about payments to factories in China, but would expect a small company/group to pay up front whereas Hornby-Bachmann types pay quarterly.

 

 

Perhaps the orgranisers could look at the DCK/Realtrack model. Mr Petty seems to have pulled off what most people described as impossible- and clearly made profit as he had a second run at them.

Hi Derek,

 

My phraseology was off, so thanks for clarifying for me.

 

Anyone that starts a Kickstarter type of crowdsourcing will of course, be liable to VAT on the total. This is, depending on how you go about your business, be payable to them every quarter. The crowdsourcing VAT will be payable in 1 lump sum, so if you go for £100,000 crowdsourcing, you must take into account that 20% or £20,000 will be payable to HMRC, plus whatever the crowdsourcing company requires to host it for you.

 

Depending on how much you raise, you could, in theory be in profit once the crowdsourcing time is completed.

However you will have to pay parts of that lump sum to the various agencies for the total time it takes to bring the project to fruition with delivery of the rewards, so it's not really profit until that's been completed.

 

I forgot to add that I suggest a 10% contingency in the calculations, for anything that might crop up in the meantime.

Cheers

Dave

[Porcy Mane]

Profits? What profits?

 

 Remember that Bachmann is running a business not a benevolent fund for everyone's wish list.

Yes Bill you're quite right. I'd thought about writing, "a proportion of the profits" but decided on just "profit" to see if anybody else would pick up the cudgel.

 

There always seems to be a certain amount of hyperbole following these types of internet announcements but internet pledges just like talk is very cheap. I'm sure the LCLT trustees will be using other media to promote and gauge interest.

 

Mike has given some baseline figures on costs. I don't know how realistic they are but profits must be projected from undertakings like this or I doubt the likes of Kernow and Hattons would be commissioning prototypes as they are.

 I note DJM has chipped in more info on this whilst I've been typing a reply.

 

The J21 has been at the NRM at Shildon where I assume the majority of the restoration (might be better to say re-assembly) work is to take place, since it's return from the abortive restoration attempt at the North Norfolk Railway. With all the tie ups between Hornby/Bachmann and the NRM with limited edition models, maybe Bachmann has carried out a large amount of preparatory work on the J21 already? Reducing development costs?

 

Maybe if the LCLT was more forward in their announcement about if any work has been progressed, folk may then be more prepared to show interest/investment.

 

As Bill has said, "spending money on a speculative investment" is a big risk and I don't know what the Charity Commissions view would be on this type of "fund raising".

I note from the Charity Commissions returns that the LCLT isn't particularly flush with cash.

 

P

[Andy Y]

I think it's worth mentioning that Bachmann aren't aware of the project and haven't received any approaches.

[DLPG]

Hi folks. I have spoken to owning group LCLT, please use info@lclt.org.uk to express your interest. There will be possibly something on the Kirby Stephen East site soon. If there is sufficient interest they intend to speak to Bachmann in the very near future.   

[The Black Hat]

I think they might have been taken aback with just how fast the news gets out and just how fast people think something like this might be thus happening and sorted.

 

Its interesting to see a few things over all. First the reaction of people wanting to buy it as a few have been taken aback by the possibility - myself included. Second that Bachmann were the first choice company to go and make such a model. You can see why some might think this with engines like the Ivatt C1 being breathtaking in appearance, but it might have been wise to get details of how much capital was needed to make the venture worthwhile before annoucing the possibility. Also, it might have been worth getting quotes of other manufacturers so that the group would be able to find who can bring the best return.

 

While I know Bachmann is easily capable of such model, and would be my first choice too, it might have been better to find details on what was needed, before announcing to see if the support could be matched what was required.

 

Personally, I think, hope and certainly believe it is possible.

[Jol Wilkinson]

For those who are really desperate and don't want to wait any longer, I am sure Steamline Sheffield would build you another one like this;

 

 

 

Photo courtesy of John Brighton, Steamline Sheffield

 

 

[The Black Hat]

That looks gorgeous....

[Jol Wilkinson]

Pleased you liked it.

 

Here's another one, on Benfieldside, this time courtesy of John James. Both are built from London Road Models kits.

 

 

 

[Market65]

That's a really lovely model from the LRM kit as well. I think that if the proposed model works out, then Bachmann are absolutely capable of producing it up to that standard.

 

All the best,

 

Market65.

[Jol Wilkinson]

That's a really lovely model from the LRM kit as well. I think that if the proposed model works out, then Bachmann are absolutely capable of producing it up to that standard.

 

All the best,

 

Market65.

Of course they should, it is a fairly simple loco. It is therefore a straightforward kit - flat running plate, rolled boiler, square tender corners, etc - so it is surprising that more people who are keen to have a J21 haven't considered building one.

 

I believe that Dave Alexander Models also produce a whitemetal kit.

 

Whether its very simplicity would make it less attractive to the less committed modeller/collector/beginner end of the market (it doesn't have the delightful livery of the Class C or the unusual wheel arrangement of the GNR Atlantic) and so is a less commercial proposition remains to be seen. There are already several early 0-6-0 locos available, albeit from different railway companies, so would something more distinctive attract more sales, e.g. NER Tennant 2-4-0, MR 156 Class or GER E4 (all in preservation and so available for 3D scanning)? AFAIK no RTR manufacturer does a 2-4-0.

[Les1952]

Doesn't have a delightful livery?

 

Did you look at post #34......?

 

As to MR or GER 2-4-0s, hands off, it is more NER prototypes we need, not more from lines that have already got something!   In any case the Fletcher 2-4-0 has more of a wow factor than the Tennant if pretty liveries are to be made, but is a sight more complex.

 

Les

[R Marshall]

Apart from sharing a common wheel arrangement, no they're not.

 

65033-65462.jpg

 

Regardless of which company produces the model: as long as the profits go towards the restoration then that has got to be a good thing. Perhaps the trustee's should be telling the prospective model investors how far the model project is progressed, if at all, rather than fishing for expressions of interest.

I don't really follow the preservation scene but I've often wondered where all the money that was raised through the "J21again" appeal was spent?

 

Porcy

Porcy,

 

Strongly agree on money raised - I gave several donations to Beamish Museum specifically for the locomotive, only to see them give it away to a Trust.

 

Regards, Roy

[The Black Hat]

Whether its very simplicity would make it less attractive to the less committed modeller/collector/beginner end of the market (it doesn't have the delightful livery of the Class C or the unusual wheel arrangement of the GNR Atlantic) and so is a less commercial proposition remains to be seen. There are already several early 0-6-0 locos available, albeit from different railway companies, so would something more distinctive attract more sales, e.g. NER Tennant 2-4-0, MR 156 Class or GER E4 (all in preservation and so available for 3D scanning)? AFAIK no RTR manufacturer does a 2-4-0.

 

Dont get me started....   

[Jol Wilkinson]

Doesn't have a delightful livery?

 

Did you look at post #34......?

 

As to MR or GER 2-4-0s, hands off, it is more NER prototypes we need, not more from lines that have already got something!   In any case the Fletcher 2-4-0 has more of a wow factor than the Tennant if pretty liveries are to be made, but is a sight more complex.

 

Les

Yes Les, I posted it.

 

There are some pre group railways that have no representation at all including the the biggest, the LNWR (the Bachmann G2 is in post LNWR condition and the forthcoming Coal Tank doesn't have a LNWR livery option yet).  So the NER is not alone. However, like most of the pre group railways, it has very well covered by kits.

 

The lack of suitable rolling stock, especially carriages, is also an issue if you want to build a period model railway. However, in the loco centered model railway world, most people don't seem too bothered.

 

Jol

[GNR Dave]

It would depend on livery for me. I'd buy LNER liveries for my layout, and pre-grouping liveries for the display cabinet, but not interested in anything post nationalisation.

Regarding Facebook, I created an account last week just to look at a friends page. It's easy. Just name, email address, DoB, sex and a password are needed. All other info is optional. You are not obliged to do anything else , ever, if you don't want to.

[Jol Wilkinson]

It would depend on livery for me. I'd buy LNER liveries for my layout, and pre-grouping liveries for the display cabinet, but not interested in anything post nationalisation.

Regarding Facebook, I created an account last week just to look at a friends page. It's easy. Just name, email address, DoB, sex and a password are needed. All other info is optional. You are not obliged to do anything else , ever, if you don't want to.

Who did you have to have sex with? Makes me even more unsure about Facebook.

[Mad McCann]

Not sure there would be this amount of navel gazing going on if the proposed model were of a southern-based type...

[The Black Hat]

Not sure there would be this amount of navel gazing going on if the proposed model were of a southern-based type...

 

Yes indeed. Irrony is that the J21 is also a C-Class if you go by the NER. Shame the reality isnt already there to already have a C-class of the north done. I think the scope for the J21 is there, especially when you consider that the J25 is almost a spin off if the model can be developed correctly. No doubt Bachmann could factor that in to the process to see if that is possible, and I would imagine that it is.

 

However, its a case of the fact that the J21 would be a broader expansion of the models made for the North East region. The K1 has been made and the Q6 to follow. If this J21 does get comissioned it would be both good for collectors, those modelling the north, and those wanting something a little different. The fact that J21s were also around Norwich during LNER days might bode well for the engine too, as well as those just wanting to get another gorgeous pre-grouping bit of kit - no doubt to go with that Wainwright C -class they might already have.

 

So if some of you are perhaps thinking that. Go on - you know you want to order some really!

[Porcy Mane]

I think the scope for the J21 is there, especially when you consider that the J25 is almost a spin off if the model can be developed correctly. No doubt Bachmann could factor that in to the process to see if that is possible, and I would imagine that it is.

 Mentioning the J25  whilst banging your J21 Drum  I'm surprised you didn't mention the Great Western Railways use of the former...

 

P

[Mad McCann]

In a few years' time 65033 is going to be working my second pet heritage line, the revived Stainmore line at KSE. Perhaps this will be a good opportrunity to raise the class profile and perhaps have a heritage line tie-in. Works for other heritage lines and I suspect Dennis Lovett may approve. :-)

[Porcy Mane]

In a few years' time 65033 is going to be working my second pet heritage line, the revived Stainmore line at KSE.

I hope your right but past history with restorations seems to show otherwise. Somehow I think we'll see a model J21 before the real thing gets it's boiler certificate.

 

P

[alfsboy]

It will be a great model but why a J21 ? .I run the Southern Pacific  and the J21 never went near L.A . though one was  thought to be seen in Tacoma .I propose its changed to an SP 2-8-0.Well...everyone else posts such ridiculous comments so it must be my turn .

Seriously though it looks a fine project and good luck .I'll want one now .

 

You can also make a fake Facebook account if you have a spare non name email account .I did it to see if I could and joined the .??????Smiths.Never used it but just wanted to find out .Of course it can be tracked back via the email by you know who's .Facebook is handy as long as you dont let it take over your life and seek adoration from the f bored and smarmy .

[The Stationmaster]

I think it's worth mentioning that Bachmann aren't aware of the project and haven't received any approaches.

So if I understand this correctly someone is seeking some sort of financial assistance (for that is what crowd funding amounts to in this context I think) to fund development of a model when they haven't even obtained a quotation for the price or practicality of such development work or even know if a manufacturer (who has been named) would be prepared or able to undertake such a project?

 

I realise from many past posts on here that the NER is a 'forgotten railway' when it comes to r-t-r and hence there might well be so immediate support for such a venture but as yet I am left with the impression that it is more of a loudly shouted idea rather than a carefully thought out and costed project.  Sorry to be something of a cassandra but it all seems to have gone-off at half cock and that might do the whole thing far more harm than good in bringing it to realisation.

[Mad McCann]

@alfsboy. I suggest you get back to examining your bridge, old chap. ;-)